Nuclear free world?

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Well, let's remember who's started the ball rolling. By bringing the thing to fruition and actually using it.

The "ball" was started by several nations. That's like saying whoever invented and used firearms is responsible for leadership on gun control.

But then, again, it ties into how one'd define responsibility. It's really a self imposed thing that can't be assigned from outside.

...and won't be assigned from the "inside" either.

myata · April 8, 2009

Which nations? The nation that started the search, never brought it to fruition before it went down the drain. There was a chance to nick it right there. As promised by the Manhattan project, "for the benefit of humankind".

But the call of all the sheer power it would throw on the "balance" was too strong to resist.

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Which nations? The nation that started the search, never brought it to fruition before it went down the drain. There was a chance to nick it right there. As promised by the Manhattan project, "for the benefit of humankind".

Why would anybody want to "nick it" when faced with the eventuality? Fission research began without any "bomb" context.

But the call of all the sheer power it would throw on the "balance" was too strong to resist.

The balance of power at the time was shifted mostly by conventional means, including simple incendiary bombs, which killed far more people than Fat Man or Little Boy. Nuclear weapons did not materially force a change in balance except for the instances of proxy wars.

myata · April 8, 2009

Sure. When, inspired by their Hiroshima and Nagasaki achievements, US started to build up their nuclear arsenals, evebody else was just supposed to watch and be grateful for world leadership backed up by these very convincing argument. The Russian bomb was tested only in 49 (first russian nuke test).

M.Dancer · April 8, 2009

Why would anybody want to "nick it" when faced with the eventuality? Fission research began without any "bomb" context.

Sometime when I read what someone has quoted in their post I just shake my head. Co-currently Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, the UK and the US were working towards an atomic weapon...it was inevitable that one would win the race and it is out good fortune that the west won....mainly because of the cooperation from the early 40s between the US, UK Canada and Australia.

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Sure. When, inspired by their Hiroshima and Nagasaki achievements, US started to build up their nuclear arsenals, evebody else was just supposed to watch and be grateful for world leadership backed up by these very convincing argument. The Russian bomb was tested only in 49 (first russian nuke test).

The American achievement was only the first successful development and deployment, and required contributions from several nations and many other nationals, including Canada. Americans acted for self interest, not leadership points. America emerged from WW2 in a leadership position by default, and I suspect it was preferred to Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union even by many non-Americans. To bemoan present nuclear circumstances in retrospect is too enjoy the outcome without acknowledging realities along the continuum before and after 1945.

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Sometime when I read what someone has quoted in their post I just shake my head. Co-currently Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, the UK and the US were working towards an atomic weapon...it was inevitable that one would win the race and it is out good fortune that the west won....mainly because of the cooperation from the early 40s between the US, UK Canada and Australia.

Right...the academic father of the fission bomb was a Hungarian. The stakes (and threat) were much greater in contemporary geo-political context than anything faced today. There has not been anything close to the conflagration of WW2 in part because of nuclear weapons.....spawning the very term "Cold War".

GostHacked · April 8, 2009

Which nations? The nation that started the search, never brought it to fruition before it went down the drain. There was a chance to nick it right there. As promised by the Manhattan project, "for the benefit of humankind".
But the call of all the sheer power it would throw on the "balance" was too strong to resist.

Much of the US's nuclear program was staffed by WWII German scientists. Germany and Russia sure as heck had a similar program going on.

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Much of the US's nuclear program was staffed by WWII German scientists. Germany and Russia sure as heck had a similar program going on.

The list of principals for the Manhattan Project does not support this claim.

myata · April 8, 2009

Yes it's only too easy to deny responsibility for generic vague reasons ("security", "balance of power", "defence", etc).

Yet for all we know, there was no compelling reason for the US to start nuclear arms race at the end of WWII. Let's remember also that Stalin's scientists, who later gave the technology to the Chinese, got some valuable tips (by some accounts - critically valuable) from their moles in the US labs. So, was there a way to keep it in the bottle? I'm not so fateful about it. Was there a will to resist military's drive for the ultimate advantage? Definitely not.

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

.....So, was there a way to keep it in the bottle? I'm not so fateful about it. Was there a will to resist military's drive for the ultimate advantage? Definitely not.

Not true...the record is full of such reservations by the project's civilian principles....decisions were not made lightly and there was even fear of catastrophe at the Trinity test. In the end, it was not possible to keep it in the bottle because to have done so was to surrender advantage to a present or future "enemy".

Also, fission research did not only apply to weapons programs. Would you also condemn mankind to a future without nuclear power plants?

tango · April 8, 2009

The list of principals for the Manhattan Project does not support this claim.

Names can be changed, and were.

myata · April 8, 2009

Haven't I explicitly mentioned "nuclear arms race"? No I'm fully OK with the peaceful applications, not sure why one has to go with the other?

"Surrendering advantage" is a good excuse, why does have vague reminiscence to other projects, Vietnam, Iraq?

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Haven't I explicitly mentioned "nuclear arms race"? No I'm fully OK with the peaceful applications, not sure why one has to go with the other?

The two are very much linked because of fuel cycle implications. One reason that Canada's CANDU reactor design enjoyed a short lived favor.

"Surrendering advantage" is a good excuse, why does have vague reminiscence to other projects, Vietnam, Iraq?

It's not an excuse, but rather an objective. Your personal opinion about US foreign policy "projects" of any kind cannot be parsed that way in the real world, and certainly not after the fact vis-a-vis Cold War.

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Names can be changed, and were.

So what? "Much" of the Manhattan Project team of scientists, physicists, aand engineers were not German...some were Maybe he meant "rocket scientists".

Edited April 8, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

GostHacked · April 8, 2009

The list of principals for the Manhattan Project does not support this claim.

Alright, maybe not WWII scientists .. but there was oneformer key German scientist who got the ball rolling and convinced Rosevelt to build the bomb.

M.Dancer · April 8, 2009

Names can be changed, and were.

I heard it was aliens captured in Australia from a downed UFO......

bush_cheney2004 · April 8, 2009

Alright, maybe not WWII scientists .. but there was oneformer key German scientist who got the ball rolling and convinced Rosevelt to build the bomb.

OK...who was that? Albert Einstein "got the ball rolling" for Roosevelt via letter, but there was a lot more practical work to be done in other places. Germany actually failed for several reasons, including the lack of heavy water per DoP's reference in another thread.

GostHacked · April 8, 2009

I heard it was aliens captured in Australia from a downed UFO......

Is it not possible? Plausible? Names do change. Plenty of blacks were told to change their names during slavery. I don't think it is a stretch to see people like German scientists to have their names changed to something more 'American'. For security reasons and to prevent backlash from the public? During a time of war against Germany, it would be bad P.R. to let it be known you have some of the enemy working for you.

Schmidt = Smith ... That kind of thing.

BC

OK...who was that? Albert Einstein "got the ball rolling" for Roosevelt via letter, but there was a lot more practical work to be done in other places. Germany actually failed for several reasons, including the lack of heavy water per DoP's reference in another thread.

You get a cookie. Yes it was Albert Einstein. Of course more work had to be done .. hence the 'got the ball rolling' terminoligy.

DogOnPorch · April 8, 2009

Is it not possible? Plausible? Names do change. Plenty of blacks were told to change their names during slavery. I don't think it is a stretch to see people like German scientists to have their names changed to something more 'American'. For security reasons and to prevent backlash from the public? During a time of war against Germany, it would be bad P.R. to let it be known you have some of the enemy working for you.
Schmidt = Smith ... That kind of thing.

Oh yeah? Who?

tango · April 8, 2009

The US is no more responsible for such leadership now than the Russian Federation, United Kingdom, France, or China.
Obama is just grandstanding.....

Despite all your pooh-pooh and bluster, I sense you are secretly proud of the man.

M.Dancer · April 8, 2009

During a time of war against Germany, it would be bad P.R. to let it be known you have some of the enemy working for you.
Schmidt = Smith ... That kind of thing.

Yeah..cause Oppenhiemer sounds sooo anglo saxon....no seriously your killing me....during the absolute most secret project of the war, you'r supposing a scientist named schmitt was truned to smith becasue of bad PR....did y9ou think maybe if even a smith was known working on the Mahatten project...the problem wouldn't be PR? :lol: :lol:

BC
You get a cookie. Yes it was Albert Einstein. Of course more work had to be done .. hence the 'got the ball rolling' terminoligy.

Don't you mean Bert Muggs?

DogOnPorch · April 8, 2009

Yeah..cause Oppenhiemer sounds sooo anglo saxon....no seriously your killing me....during the absolute most secret project of the war, you'r supposing a scientist named schmitt was truned to smith becasue of bad PR....did y9ou think maybe if even a smith was known working on the Mahatten project...the problem wouldn't be PR?
Don't you mean Bert Muggs?

I think they're implying Enrico Fermi was a converted Nazi who changed his name or something crazy like that.