israeli soldiers admit to war crimes

[DogOnPorch]

Defacto - that's like "as if" or as if a government but not the government - or using Israel as a surrogate..and mean while others create the problems...Defacto is a dirty deflective term. I see what you are getting at - Why does the world not grasp this minor complexity? So the Soviets used the Arabs and the Americans used the Jews? Seems that old habits are hard to break. It reminds me of what wrecked Africa by killing all of the male protective heads of black families... Super powers eating the place by sending in operatives on a large scale..and destroying a civilization - but that's okay - seeing the Russians are racist as are the Americans..killing blacks and starving them out - with the UN parasite egg heads supervising the slow genocide - is real DEFACTOISM.

Stop trying to rewrite history.

[Oleg Bach]

Stop trying to rewrite history.

Never studied history, but I have observed humanity. You are either civil or you are not! It does not take a formal education to understand the difference between right and wrong - but being black and white is very unpopular these days..and no one wants a simple solutiont - stop killing.

[DogOnPorch]

Never studied history, but I have observed humanity. You are either civil or you are not! It does not take a formal education to understand the difference between right and wrong - but being black and white is very unpopular these days..and no one wants a simple solutiont - stop killing.

Read up on the Yom Kippur War. There's yer civil. Waited for the holidays, jolly fellows.

[dub]

I counted what? Six or seven 'dead' in all those posts.

is that the way holocaust deniers deny the holocaust?

"uhm, pics or it didn't happen! i never counted 6 millions jews in the pics!"

My point is if there truely was 1000 dead children and blasted baby milk factories, Hamas would have paraded them around as is the usual way with the Arabs.

what? who said 1000 dead children?

the report is from the internationally respected PCHR, which has long tangled with both palestinian and israeli authorities in their defense of human rights.

you're not being an honest person DoP.

Edited March 23, 2009 by dub

[Rue]

another example of you trying to minimize IDF's wrong behaviour. you're not an honest person.

And you are? You think its honest to discuss this issue in the way you do to suggest only one side of this equation demonizes the other. Save the sanctimonious b.s.

You came on this forum to exploit demonization for partisan political purposes.

Here is the point. Your selectivity is what is dishonest.

Here is the point. In Israel such problems are openly discussed and people will be questioned and confronted.

Let me know when Hamas and Hezbollah's "freedom fighters" will sit around discussing their demonization of Israelis. Let me know when Hamas will stop depicting Israelis as demons and encouraging their children daily to see them as monsters.

The fact is in any protracted conflict, demonization of the other party to the conflict evolves and spreads the longer the conflict evolves.

Any conventional army sent in to police a civilian zone and asked to fight an invisible enemy faces such problems.

No one is apologizing for it. It is bad, It is unacceptable. It needs to be addressed but to do as you do exploit it for one sided partisan sanctimonious posturing is b.s.

[Rue]

what's your point? both are part of the Israel Defense Force.

http://photos.upi.com/topic/e1e8e24e1cefc0...bb6/Gaza_57.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/b9010d552a5b9d...2c8/Gaza_62.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/42bcfe4fc861de...32d/Gaza_63.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/1dc5237a306792...698/Gaza_64.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/7e08be63a9b977...ce9/Gaza_66.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/df291b64b53fac...afa/Gaza_72.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/63dae8db89cdec...0b2/Gaza_75.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/4406fffbc3a087...d7c/Gaza_76.jpg

Funeral held for 43 victims of Israeli strike on UN school in Gaza http://photos.upi.com/topic/865dea8aa573f2...f2f/Gaza_10.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/f35d2024509873...03e/Gaza_13.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/f8ba8b21af091f...24b/Gaza_17.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/99d2583dbf1884...f1d/Gaza_19.jpg

http://photos.upi.com/topic/9d424f19c20f37...fa8/Gaza_34.jpg

http://www.photojournalism.org/2007%20imag.../spot_news1.jpg

there is more. a lot more. but yeah, you keep denying that the IDF have killed hundreds of innocent civilians and you keep denying that many from the IDF including those at the top who ordered the attacks, should be prosecuted for war crimes despite the overwhelming evidence, including IDF soldiers' own admissions.

you're a dishonest person.

Who are you to call anyone dishonest and portray yourself as the only truthful person in discussing this matter.. You are using a legitimate problem for political partisan propaganda purposes and you fabricated the claim that the IDF kills hundreds of innocent civilians.

[Rue]

There have been a series of research projectrs underway in four Israeli universities examining the psychology of protracted conflict and placing IDF soldiers in a conflict of attrition with an invisible enemy.

The demonization process of Palestinian civilians is not that different then the demonization of Israelis and for that matter all Jews and then Westerners Hamas and Hezbollah and the mainstream media across the Arab League nations engages in.

Its interesting an article comes out engaging in full and frank discussion as to the psychological consequences of protracted conflict and the same people who pounce all over it as a propaganda opportunity to suggest Israeli is evil and the IDF is evil are the same silent hippocrites when it comes to Hamas, Hezbollah and the countless terrorist organizations or mainstream media demonization of Israelis in the Arab world.

The IDF knows it has a serious problem trying to use a conventional army as a continuous civilian political police force. The difference though is Israel knows and discusses it openly while Hamas, Hezbollah and the usual anti-Israeli opportunists see absolutely nothing wrong or in need of examination from the other side of the conflict.

What I am saying is the demonization of Palestinians is not an isolated phenomena it is part and parcel of a response to demonization of Israelis-neither side is innocent of demonization.

If the sob's who now try use the story that discusses Israeli soldiers discussing their psychic conceptions read it fully and read the studies fully they would know that and they would not turn the complex and tragic consequences of conflict into yet another opportunity to sit on the side and cluck like blood spectators at an ultimate fighting match as they think one side has been given a good shot to the head.

[JB Globe]

I don't really buy into your argument.The Palestinians recieve BILLIONS of dollars from foreign governments(much of it from the hated West). The problem is that it seems much of that money is diverted towards terrorism,promoting hatred towards the Jews,

Considering Hamas is the key actor in doing those things, and foreign aid does not go to Hamas I fail to see how Western money is funding any of those things. It's both a policy decision not to give aid to Hamas, as well as a legal decision - since almost all Western nations have them listed them as a terrorist organization, it would be illegal under their own national laws for them to give them money.

Perhaps you could explain to me just how Hamas is recieving money from Western governments, because I'm not aware of it.

and keeping a bloated,corrupt public service going.

I'll give you that, since all Western aid goes to Fatah now, which is now not only corrupt but also essentially seen as a puppet of the West by many, which means their authority is not respected, which also means that the Palestinian public will reject any agreement that Fatah hammers out with Israel if Hamas is not present at the table.

On the subject of international law,isn't firing rockets wildly into Israel a breach of said law?

Considering I stated in the post you quoted from that Hamas employs terrorism, what do you think my response to this question would be?

[dub]

And you are? You think its honest to discuss this issue in the way you do to suggest only one side of this equation demonizes the other. Save the sanctimonious b.s.

You came on this forum to exploit demonization for partisan political purposes.

Here is the point. Your selectivity is what is dishonest.

you are right about me being selective but you are wrong about me being "dishonest". there is a reason for me being selective; no one disputes that hamas has engaged in illegal activities such as suicide attacks and rocket attacks. however, for some reason, many in the mainstream media have accepted and have justified israel's actions in the palestinian territories, including in the most recent conflict in gaza. don't you find it odd that hamas has been labeled as such a monster here in the west while israel continues to do what it does with little criticism by our governments?

Here is the point. In Israel such problems are openly discussed and people will be questioned and confronted.

Let me know when Hamas and Hezbollah's "freedom fighters" will sit around discussing their demonization of Israelis. Let me know when Hamas will stop depicting Israelis as demons and encouraging their children daily to see them as monsters.

it's quite easy for hamas and hezbollah, the palestinians and lebanese, to portray israel as monsters after what happened to them, don't you think?

when airplanes, helicopters and tanks shoot missiles into your home and kill members of your family and ruin your life, what do you think the results of that will be? do you know how many civilians were killed and injured? do you know how many will be disfigured for life? do you know how many lost their homes? do you know how many lost a family member? the numbers are quite disproportionate compared to what the israelis have experienced. not to mention the 40+ years of occupation and the settlement increase. not to mention the walls that have cut into their lands. the checkpoints, the assassinations, the frequent kidnapping of people without any justice. it goes on and on.

The fact is in any protracted conflict, demonization of the other party to the conflict evolves and spreads the longer the conflict evolves.

the fact is that those who engage in wrong acts should be held accountable. especially if it's someone who tries to pass itself as the "most moral army in the world". especially someone who is deemed as an ally and a friend and a democracy. especially someone who once experienced brutal treatment by someone else.

Any conventional army sent in to police a civilian zone and asked to fight an invisible enemy faces such problems.

No one is apologizing for it. It is bad, It is unacceptable. It needs to be addressed but to do as you do exploit it for one sided partisan sanctimonious posturing is b.s.

in your opinion it is.

i have in numerous occasions have expressed and condemned what hamas has done. however, this is not a 50/50 playing field. whether you look at the number of times each party has broken international law or how many civilians have been killed, it's nowhere near 50/50. so you're not going to see me follow up my criticism of israel's actions with, "oh and hamas is wrong for..." every single time i bring up what israel has done.

this is a simple case of one group, bullying another group. even though i don't agree with some of the tactics the group who is being bullied, to me it's clear who has created this problem and will continue to create problems. most other things are a reaction to israel's policies. i will continue to voice my opinion and stand up for justice. justice would be to, first, stop the increasing of the illegal settlements, and eventually remove all the settlements from the palestinian territory. justice would also mean that, israel would remove the occupation and allow a palestinian state to be formed.

[Argus]

what? who said 1000 dead children?

Not even a thousand dead kids and you're calling it a holocaust? Geeze, they've had forty years. You'd have thought the Jews would have been more efficient.

[dub]

Not even a thousand dead kids and you're calling it a holocaust? Geeze, they've had forty years. You'd have thought the Jews would have been more efficient.

when did i call it a holocaust?

just because you know how to press "reply", it doesn't mean that you should type whatever garbage that is on your mind.

[dub]

'IDF troops used 11-year-old boy as human shield in Gaza'

[Oleg Bach]

'IDF troops used 11-year-old boy as human shield in Gaza'

That's not so bad...maybe they should gain extra safety and security if they put a baby on board sign on the back of an armoured personal carrier? Just hate that baby on board crap - as if adults are fair game and children are not. Seems that people adore innocents and once the person is 18 he's killable...what are we talking about here? Is it like not catching bass out of season? Do we have to wait till the fish spawns and is of age then we off the little buggers......Never trust a jerk that says "what about the poor defenceless children?" _ These types just want to look like good and kind protective people - but the still facilitate the killing of the young and old.

[dub]

evidence of israeli war crimes continue to pile up:

[JB Globe]

evidence of israeli war crimes continue to pile up:

C'mon, doesn't the Canadian military also strap kids on the front of Humvee's to ward off sniper fire? Don't they? . . .

It's amazing that one of the world's most sophisticated armies still managed to hit 59 hospitals and medical clinics which they had the exact coordinations for. Either it was a deliberate strategy to erode the humanitarian capacity of Hamas in order to make them appear weak or incapable to their own public (who would then presumably support Israel's preferred negotiating partner Fatah? Really?), or they aren't actually a competent military power any more and aren't capable of not hitting hospitals.

Edited March 25, 2009 by JB Globe

[Oleg Bach]

C'mon, doesn't the Canadian military also strap kids on the front of Humvee's to ward off sniper fire? Don't they? . . . And if there were 27 hospitals in Afghanistan, I'm sure we'd bomb 15 of them, right?

You have to admit...Israel did go over board with the approval of Cheney - who wanted a little fun before left office. Getting some blood to flow in the streets and though his pace maker heart was worth it to him.. I guess with the okay from Washington it was alright to do what comes naturally ---- If it was not for world condemnation - Israel would have secretly killed every last person in Palisitine - they were considering it...of course they were.

[DogOnPorch]

evidence of israeli war crimes continue to pile up:

Watched it. It was made up entirely of hear-say evidence. For all we know those three kids were told to say that by Hamas or some other scenario. I note they all lived.

Horray for Pallywood.

[dub]

Watched it. It was made up entirely of hear-say evidence. For all we know those three kids were told to say that by Hamas or some other scenario. I note they all lived.

Horray for Pallywood.

there are photos, other eyewitnesses and of course, confession made by israeli soldiers. however, you can continue to make your excuses.

what's interesting is that the IDF did its own so-called investigation after the original accusations and they came up with nothing. now that israeli soldiers are coming forward, and other evidence are mounting, things are a little different. Remember when the IDF "denied" using phosphorous? Then, once evidence of use of it was shown, they changed their story? Yeah, the IDF lies and it lies often. perhaps you should look into IDF's lack of honesty before accusing "the other team" of lying. an independent israeli investigation will need to take place.

[M.Dancer]

LA Times

Story turns out to be....nothing.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=...;x_article=1647

So sad, too bad...

[dub]

Story turns out to be....nothing.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=...;x_article=1647

So sad, too bad...

LOL @ camera.org

[ironstone]

Since I'm not a Socialist(I work for a living and am capable of independant thought)I always look at both sides of the argument and form an opinion based on reason and evidence.In this never ending Middle East mess between the Israelis and the surrounding hostile countries,it's clear which side has continually made the most effort to achieve peace.One country stands out among the lot of them.Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination,but one country is head and shoulders above the rest.Ahead in education,health care,human rights(actually placing value on human life,imagine that),and light years ahead in terms of being truly DEMOCRATIC!In time of war,terrible things are done,usually by both sides.Action and reaction.I would never say the IDF are comprised only of angels,but on the whole they have acquitted themselves very well in action.How often during war does an army give advance warning to civilians to get out harms way?The IDF goes to great lengths to avoid casualties to civilians.Can anyone honestly say that Hamas does the same?The answer is no,in fact Hamas specifically targets civilians.They are even likely to be jubilant about Palestinian losses to sway public opinion to their side.

This could boil down to simply choosing the lesser of two evils,which side consistently makes the most effort to do the honorable thing?The Israelis,hands down.

Go ahead,start the insults....

[JB Globe]

Watched it. It was made up entirely of hear-say evidence.

Aside from the photographic evidence of children being used as human shields, and the damage done to the hospitals by white phosphorous and missles, and the repeated firing on paramedics wearing orange vests in broad daylight.

Generally, eyewitness accounts by professionals such as doctors and others aren't considered hear-say evidence. And considering there are photographs of children being used as human shields by the IDF, and all of the testimony we've heard from IDF soldiers themselves about how they were instructed by commanders and IDF Rabbis to view the Gaza populace, I think it's dishonest of you to COMPLETELY dismiss these allegations outright.

For all we know those three kids were told to say that by Hamas or some other scenario.

And it's JUST as likely that the IDF would cover something like this up, which is why would should get an open investigation into this, but of course human rights officials are barred from Gaza and can't conduct one, so all we have is the IDF investigation that goes on behind closed doors.

[JB Globe]

Story turns out to be....nothing.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=...;x_article=1647

So sad, too bad...

FYI - Using articles published by special interest advocacy groups that are aligned with one side in a conflict is ALWAYS an epic fail.

You would NEVER accept an article by the pro-Palestinian equivalent of CAMERA, so why should we accept this article? To quote former Jerusalem Post Editor Gershom Gorenberg: " It is not the press's job to provide PR for any government. Until CAMERA gets this straight, self-respecting journalists will regard an occasional snarl from the watchdog as proof that they're doing their job."

Honestly you would do better to just remain silent than posting something like this, if you can't find a reputable news source that shares the findings of this CAMERA article, than it might mean that there's actually some validity to the soldiers' claims.

Edited March 26, 2009 by JB Globe

[DogOnPorch]

Aside from the photographic evidence of children being used as human shields, and the damage done to the hospitals by white phosphorous and missles, and the repeated firing on paramedics wearing orange vests in broad daylight.

The damage could be old or new. The kids could be making sh*t up. Who was doing the shooting in that film re: Hamas transport drivers...errr...ambulance drivers? I couldn't tell but you can?

Generally, eyewitness accounts by professionals such as doctors and others aren't considered hear-say evidence. And considering there are photographs of children being used as human shields by the IDF, and all of the testimony we've heard from IDF soldiers themselves about how they were instructed by commanders and IDF Rabbis to view the Gaza populace, I think it's dishonest of you to COMPLETELY dismiss these allegations outright.

So if you go to court and you're a doctor, your testimony will be considered truth due to your social position? Right. I think ol' Jack McCoy would have a field day with that.

And it's JUST as likely that the IDF would cover something like this up, which is why would should get an open investigation into this, but of course human rights officials are barred from Gaza and can't conduct one, so all we have is the IDF investigation that goes on behind closed doors.

Life sucks when you choose a Islamo-Nazi terrorist group as your government. My suggestion to them would be to take a page from the book of Ghandi and stage a massive hunger strike to get their wishes answered after telling Hamas to fook off. Not likely to happen as it doesn't involve killing Jews. Funny damn thing is that one can go to almost any point in history between 1920 and now and hear the same news stories as today...trouble in the Gaza. Big surprise.

Edited March 27, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[dub]

let it go DoP. your attempt to deny the war crimes by israel is as ridiculous as those who try to deny the holocaust.

the evidence is there. not only from the palestinians but also from israeli soldiers. there is of course the investigations done by the UN and they've determined that israel has committed war crimes.

how do you bring yourself to deny all this evidence? you're a dishonest person.