Has the Conservative Party Become One of Exclusion?

Alta4ever · March 19, 2009

You just described me as well. We should be the ones easy to lure, but we dare to challenge the Grand Master or the Grand Plan, so we are banished, along with almost a million others, at least. (based on last election)

What don't you get about us not sharing any common ground you can say you libertarian, but that doesn't make you one, most of you posts that have substance and are about ignatieff all have a socialist element to them. The conservative movement hasn't abandoned you, you abandoned it.

Alta4ever · March 19, 2009

Hey PT chill Oleg was talking to Alta4ever when he said that.

actually he wasn't. My post got in his way.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Alta4ever

DrGreenthumb · March 19, 2009

actually he wasn't. My post got in his way.

No it makes a lot more sense if he's saying it to you, lol

Progressive Tory · March 19, 2009

The only thing your list proves is that you stereotype. Every point is ridiculous.

I compiled the list mainly from comments here. As soon as we don't agree with the current gov't we are automatically 'Lefties'. There's no middle ground despite the fact that many of the issues are not partisan issues at all, or at least they shouldn't be.

I like Michael Igantieff, which means I've committed a mortal sin, and even if Jesus came back and died on the cross again; it would not cleanse my sinning soul.

I don't agree with everything Michael Ignatieff does. I'm more supportive of the NDP's stance on the war. I'm more Green Party when it comes to the environment and proportional representation. But realistically, he now represents the majority of my ideals, with the best chance of actually forming a gov't. I voted NDP twice after the PCs died, but Jack Layton is starting to get on my nerves.

DrGreenthumb · March 19, 2009

I voted NDP twice after the PCs died, but Jack Layton is starting to get on my nerves.

I voted PC, reform, then voted for cretien twice, (and would again if he came back), and since then I've been NDP. Jack is kinda pissing me off lately too by being so quiet about prohibition and drug law reform.

All it would take from Ignatieff is the suggestion that the Liberal party would follow the recomendations of the senate report on the non-medicinal use of drugs from 2002. "The Nolin Report" Nolin is a Conservative senator BTW. All it would take would be for Ignatieff to distance the Liberals from the Conservative plans to increase penalties for pot offences and promise to introduce decrim within the first 3 years of forming government, and I and a whole army of Cannabis Culture NDP'ers will be there to work on the Liberal campaign.

You would see a huge Liberal majority and the NDP would be crushed. Us young liberty minded Ndp'ers are the life blood of the NDP now, without us all they have is 60 + year old union guys from the old days. The liberals would have majorities from now till eternity if they give the people what they want....FREEDOM.

Alta4ever · March 19, 2009

No it makes a lot more sense if he's saying it to you, lol

only in your mind

I asked oleg to clarify for me.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Alta4ever

Alta4ever · March 19, 2009

I voted PC, reform, then voted for cretien twice, (and would again if he came back), and since then I've been NDP. Jack is kinda pissing me off lately too by being so quiet about prohibition and drug law reform.
All it would take from Ignatieff is the suggestion that the Liberal party would follow the recomendations of the senate report on the non-medicinal use of drugs from 2002. "The Nolin Report" Nolin is a Conservative senator BTW. All it would take would be for Ignatieff to distance the Liberals from the Conservative plans to increase penalties for pot offences and promise to introduce decrim within the first 3 years of forming government, and I and a whole army of Cannabis Culture NDP'ers will be there to work on the Liberal campaign.

You would see a huge Liberal majority and the NDP would be crushed. Us young liberty minded Ndp'ers are the life blood of the NDP now, without us all they have is 60 + year old union guys from the old days. The liberals would have majorities from now till eternity if they give the people what they want....FREEDOM.

All it wold take take for me to come on side with you on this issue Dr. Greenthumb is the movement from the population that you represent that would allow a change to how universal health care was distributed.

Progressive Tory · March 19, 2009

What don't you get about us not sharing any common ground you can say you libertarian, but that doesn't make you one, most of you posts that have substance and are about ignatieff all have a socialist element to them. The conservative movement hasn't abandoned you, you abandoned it.

I don't agree. When I look at the Reform Party platform, without some of the social conservative elements, it made a lot of sense. If the Reform agenda had gained momentum, I might have eventually joined them. I've said here many, many times that I liked Preston Manning. I still do.

If we sat down face to face, you would probably find that we're not that different. My family always comes first. Next week I will be celebrating my 37th wedding anniversary. I've raised three children and am raising a grandchild. I don't smoke, drink or use drugs. I want to legalize pot from a purely realistic perspective. Tax it like we do other vices and empty the jails of non-violent drug offenders. Practicality is a conservative principle.

I support unions because I know that they prop up our economy, with payroll taxes and spending power. Union workers rarely have to tap into social programs. Practicality is a conservative principle.

I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion. I don't want women to have to go to backstreet butchers or resort to dangerous drugs or coathangers when she doesn't want to continue with an unwanted pregnancy. Pro-lifers believe that this is an easy decision, but it often is not. You can provide options but ultimately her body, her choice. This is not socialist or liberal, because there are pro-lifers in all parties. This doesn't make me a socialist.

I believe in social programs because a civilized society needs to look after all of his citizens. Hunger creates unrest and unrest creates chaos. Everyone needs bread if we want to stay secure. Practicality is a conservative principle.

So what have I said that makes me a socialist, and what is wrong with a little socialism anyway?

bush_cheney2004 · March 20, 2009

We are the enemy, and whether we're 'arrogant' Liberal 'pricks', 'socialists (NDP), Separatists (Bloc) or Green; we're all painted with the same brush. We are not conservative and no matter what happens, we are wrong, they are right.

But you are ignoring the obvious and equal association as "undesirables" amongst the opposition parties, who failed to even form a coalition. If the CPC is to be so judged, then so shall the opposition parties.

....I just think if Conservative supporters really wanted to have a majority, they would try to find common ground. Instead they've drawn the battle lines. They've set the terms. I don't meet them because I'm more of a Liberal 'prick' with 'socialist' tendencies apparently, than what passes for conservative these days.

Find a common ground? No more or less than the Bloc, NDP, or Grits choose to do so at anything but opportune times. The Greens are really a non-factor and minor party based on seats.

This one has nothing to do with George Bush. This is a made in Canada situation.

Then why did "Bush" figure so prominently in the last election cycle, notably from the opposition?

Slim MacSquinty · March 20, 2009

BC, I agree, the opposition party's are perhaps even less willing to participate in any meaningful level of inclusive behavour especially the NDP who vote against everything.

Why haven't you cahnged your name to McCain/ Palin?

Smallc · March 20, 2009

BC, I agree, the opposition party's are perhaps even less willing to participate in any meaningful level of inclusive behavour

The NDP maybe, and the Bloc on some issues (I don't think I, a patriot, could join the Bloc), but almost anyone can be a Liberal.

Slim MacSquinty · March 20, 2009

but almost anyone can be a Liberal.

And anyone can be a Conservative, so what is the point of the argument?

Smallc · March 20, 2009

And anyone can be a Conservative, so what is the point of the argument?

Well not quite anyone, but I would have to say that I agree with you for the most part. To tell you the truth, I don't really know the point of the argument. I didn't make it and I don't necessarily agree with it. Each party has their exclusions and biases, some more than others. I will say that I have noticed a change in North American conservatives in general in the last few months though. I don't know if its the economy or Obama or something else entirely, but many seem more hostile. Just an observation.

DrGreenthumb · March 20, 2009

All it wold take take for me to come on side with you on this issue Dr. Greenthumb is the movement from the population that you represent that would allow a change to how universal health care was distributed.

What do mean by that exactly? The movement I represent has been advoctaing legalizing and taxing cannabis to fund health care for ages.

Think about it all you have to do as a government is tax it just low enough to undercut the black market price. For example weed costs $10 per gram on average on the black market. The government could easily liscence the sale of Cannabis to private businesses, or let the provinces handle control of it like they do with alcohol. They could completely stifle the black market and charge 3-4 dollars per gram in taxes still leaving plenty of room for the industry to create legitimate economic growth, and new GREEN jobs. Remember that even indoor grown hydroponic cannabis only costs about 50 cents a gram to produce. In a legal market we expect cannabis buds to cost about 5 dollars a gram, taxes included. 90% of pot smokers will be very willing to pay that much for quality cannabis. The rest will grow their own, and either legally sell it, or smoke it themselves, either way no more turf wars and easy money for gangsters

. Millions of grams are bought and sold every day in Canada, that would pay for a lot of health care. They could probably lower your income taxes because of the extra income.

And the best part is if you don't smoke pot you don't pay the tax. Its win-win for you Conservative types. Plus freedom loving punk rockin hippies like me don't have to go to jail anymore.

noahbody · March 20, 2009

I compiled the list mainly from comments here.

Yes you did. Then you attributed it to the Conservative Party of Canada. That's stereotyping.

Argus · March 20, 2009

See that's my point exactly and thank you for helping me prove it. I compiled the list partly from posters here. You don't want anyone who questions conservative principles, or what you deem they should be. I used to be conservative, but I dared to use the 'L' word so am now banned for life. I'm not the only one who feels this way, believe me.

You have never been, by your own words, any kind of conservative. You are a silly old woman with a child-like understanding of politics and the economy given to absurd statements. Your post was a disatribe of ignorance and stupidity. You can't be a conservative if you're not Christian? That might surprise the Jewish, Hindu and Sikh MPs in the Tory party. You can't believe in Christianity?? You can't believe in equal marriage? WTH is that? You can't believe in women's equality? No doubt that would surprise female Tory MPs, all of whom, so far as I've seen, are smarter than you.

As I have posted before, you can be a Tory if you believe in same-sex marriage or not, if you believe in abortion or not, if you believe in the death penalty or not. The tories allow for different opinions on a variety of moral and social policy beliefs. On the other hand, if you want to run for the NDP you say and think and believe as Jack does or you're OUT the door. All moral and social beliefs are decided by Jack and it's your job to not only spout the party line but believe in them - or else.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Argus

Oleg Bach · March 20, 2009

You have never been, by your own words, any kind of conservative. You are a silly old woman with a child-like understanding of politics and the economy given to absurd statements. You can't be a conservative if you're not Christian? That might surprise the Jewish, Hindu and Sikh MPs in the Tory party.
As I have posted before, you can be a Tory if you believe in same-sex marriage or not, if you believe in abortion or not, if you believe in the death penalty or not. The tories allow for different opinions on a variety of moral and social policy beliefs. On the other hand, if you want to run for the NDP you say and think and believe as Jack does or you're OUT the door. All moral and social beliefs are decided by Jack and it's your job to not only spout the party line but believe in them - or else.

Could you imagine if an NDPer or a Liberal stood up and said --- "marriage should be abolished because the gays and lesbians have ruined and discredited the institutions - so now it is useless - and by the way gays are inferiour biologically because they are not capable of breeding ---- a conservative would have the freedom of speech to say that - the other parties would curxify you into oblivion.

Progressive Tory · March 20, 2009

but almost anyone can be a Liberal.
And anyone can be a Conservative, so what is the point of the argument?

No they can't. Not necessarily because of the Party but because of their supporters. Everyone not a conservative is automatically a 'leftie' and they hate 'lefties' of any kind, especially Liberals. My first column for our newspaper was about how divided we'd become between what is perceived as Left and Right.

It was in the newspaper on Tuesday and I have had so much response from people, who have felt alienated from this gov't because they don't wear their religion on their sleeve, or dare to question it's policies. They say the same thing I do ... as soon as you criticize them, you automatically just hate Stephen Harper so are dismissed as having no meaningful input.

There's almost a pattern. The 5 steps of criticizing the Cosnervative gov't:

1. You just hate Stephen Harper, we get it.

2. You 'lefties' are all the same.

3. You're just a socialist.

4. You're a godless socialist.

5. You're just persecuting Christians.

I mean, what the hell?!! ... I just want to know where our money went.

Progressive Tory · March 20, 2009

but many seem more hostile. Just an observation.

And don't forget Rush Limbaugh is rooting for America to fail.

Alta4ever · March 20, 2009

What do mean by that exactly? The movement I represent has been advoctaing legalizing and taxing cannabis to fund health care for ages.
Think about it all you have to do as a government is tax it just low enough to undercut the black market price. For example weed costs $10 per gram on average on the black market. The government could easily liscence the sale of Cannabis to private businesses, or let the provinces handle control of it like they do with alcohol. They could completely stifle the black market and charge 3-4 dollars per gram in taxes still leaving plenty of room for the industry to create legitimate economic growth, and new GREEN jobs. Remember that even indoor grown hydroponic cannabis only costs about 50 cents a gram to produce. In a legal market we expect cannabis buds to cost about 5 dollars a gram, taxes included. 90% of pot smokers will be very willing to pay that much for quality cannabis. The rest will grow their own, and either legally sell it, or smoke it themselves, either way no more turf wars and easy money for gangsters

. Millions of grams are bought and sold every day in Canada, that would pay for a lot of health care. They could probably lower your income taxes because of the extra income.

And the best part is if you don't smoke pot you don't pay the tax. Its win-win for you Conservative types. Plus freedom loving punk rockin hippies like me don't have to go to jail anymore.

As I said if you moment came on side and wanted to see a change to how all Universal Healthcare was deleivered to make more responsible for their choices and not the taxpayer then I would work with you.

Alta4ever · March 20, 2009

And don't forget Rush Limbaugh is rooting for America to fail.

Just the same as the american liberals were rooting for America to fail during bush's administration.

MontyBurns · March 20, 2009

Like the Republicans, the Conservative Party of Canada has become one of exclusion:

If the Liberal party is all inclusive then it shouldn't have any trouble forming a majority government.

DrGreenthumb · March 20, 2009

If the Liberal party is all inclusive then it shouldn't have any trouble forming a majority government.

It won't

DrGreenthumb · March 20, 2009

As I said if you moment came on side and wanted to see a change to how all Universal Healthcare was deleivered to make more responsible for their choices and not the taxpayer then I would work with you.

And again, I'm asking you what you mean by that. If you mean privatizing health care and turning it into a customer pay system forget that noise. Healthcare should be prioritized by need not by the thickness of your wallet.

If you want to talk about how healthcare is FUNDED, I believe I've laid out a way to make healthcare funding tied to unhealthy practices. SO healthcare could be funded by consumption taxes that vary according to the scientifically determined liklihood of that consumption being unhealthy. So transfats should be legal, just taxed heavily to compensate the rest of the taxpayers for your choice to eat them. Just like taxing pot would cover any additional costs to healthcare. Its pretty simple, we already do it for alcohol and tobacco. I also think that taxes on unhealthy food choices should be higher, and lower on vegetables, etc.

The problem is how would we decide how to tax sports equipment, like downhill ski's and hockey skates? Sports injuries cost the healthcare system a lot of money, but physical activity is good for health. Hockey injuries cost the health care system WAY more than smoking pot does, should we ban hockey? I don't think so.

Alta4ever · March 20, 2009

And again, I'm asking you what you mean by that. If you mean privatizing health care and turning it into a customer pay system forget that noise. Healthcare should be prioritized by need not by the thickness of your wallet.
If you want to talk about how healthcare is FUNDED, I believe I've laid out a way to make healthcare funding tied to unhealthy practices. SO healthcare could be funded by consumption taxes that vary according to the scientifically determined liklihood of that consumption being unhealthy. So transfats should be legal, just taxed heavily to compensate the rest of the taxpayers for your choice to eat them. Just like taxing pot would cover any additional costs to healthcare. Its pretty simple, we already do it for alcohol and tobacco. I also think that taxes on unhealthy food choices should be higher, and lower on vegetables, etc.

The problem is how would we decide how to tax sports equipment, like downhill ski's and hockey skates? Sports injuries cost the healthcare system a lot of money, but physical activity is good for health. Hockey injuries cost the health care system WAY more than smoking pot does, should we ban hockey? I don't think so.

I am not talking about the "americanization" of health care I am talking about changing so that their is a visable cost to health care, that will reward those who make good choices and penalize those who do not or abuse the system.Yet all would have access to the same level of healthcare without being discriminated against for ablity to pay.