Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) I watch a lot of political commentary shows on both sides of the border; and much discussion centres around the death of conversatism. In particular, in the U.S.; the Republican party, which is clearly in serious trouble. Their ‘big tent’ philosophy, which should have brought more Americans into the fold, instead closed the door to a growing list of what they deemed to be ‘undesirables’. Many are blaming it on the Religous Right, but I don’t think they can share it all; anymore than the Reform/Alliance can shoulder the burden for the internal strife that the Canadian version of the party is now experiencing. The problem for parties left of centre, is competition; which in turn creates a problem for conservative voters, because there is no competition. They can voice their disapporval over the handling of the economy, and the move away from the founding principles, but where do they go? They just have to suck it up and try not to complain too loudly for fear that they could drive voters to the ‘evil’ Liberals. But what if the Liberal Party isn’t as evil as they once thought? There was a recent editorial in our local paper that suggested Stephen Harper was becoming a Liberal, while Michael Ignatieff was becoming a Conservative. A recent poll suggested that Harper has little chance of gaining ground from the left; and in fact seems more worried about losing ground from the right; hence, his falling back on ‘Faith, Family and Freedom’. Reading comments on conservative blogs and forums, there is a definite ‘us vs them’ mentality. But shouldn’t those ‘us’, try to lure those ‘them’, and not drive them away; especially since there are a great many votes from the ‘centre’ now at play? Like the Republicans, the Conservative Party of Canada has become one of exclusion: - If you are not a Christian, you can’t be a conservative. - If you are a Muslim, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe in global warming, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe in evolution, you can’t be a conservative. - If you are pro-choice, you can’t be a conservative. - If you are gay, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe in equal marriage, you can’t be a conservative. - If you support the arts, you can’t be a conservative. - If you don’t believe it’s OK to attack homosexuals publicly, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe pot should be legalized, you can’t be a conservative. - If you belong to a union or support unions, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe in equal rights for women, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe in pay equity for women, you can’t be a conservative. - If you now or have ever been a member of the Liberal Party, you can’t be a conservative. - If you use the word ‘liberal’ not preceded by ‘arrogant’ or followed by ‘pricks’ (Alta4ever), you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe in the founding principles of Christianity: peace, love, mercy, tolerance and sharing the wealth, you can’t be a conservative. - If you believe that everyone is entitled to a fair trial, you can’t be a conservative. One or two of these infractions will only put you on probation, but three or more, forget about it. They simply do not want you. They have become a party of the self-righteous and continually give those of us not fans of the current gov’t, little reason to aspire to become one. We have options, but they’ve clearly indicated to us, that they have no desire to be one of those options. Michael Ignatieff is now also using a ‘big tent’ philosphy, and if he can turn his party into one of ‘inclusion’ by not limiting the criteria - it just might work. Edited March 19, 2009 by Progressive Tory Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Alta4ever Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 You forgot one, if your a progessive liberal, the small c conservatives don't want you becuase you are not a conservative. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Alta4ever Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Keep licking boots progressive liberal its so becoming. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 I watch a lot of political commentary shows on both sides of the border; and much discussion centres around the death of conversatism. In particular, in the U.S.; the Republican party, which is clearly in serious trouble. Their ‘big tent’ philosophy, which should have brought more Americans into the fold, instead closed the door to a growing list of what they deemed to be ‘undesirables’. Drawing any such parallels is superficial at best, as even the CPC would be hard pressed to stay right of the American Democratic party on key domestic and foreign policy issues. Small "c" conservatism is alive and well regardless of which party it chooses to reside in. Canada already has political parties which institutionalize "undesireables" by design, and a Westminster process that only exacerbates such polarization in Parliament. Seeking to define the "death of conservatism" in Canada by gazing at the United States reveals more about wishful thinking than a firm understanding of domestic (Canadian) political issues and party dynamics. Bush is gone.....will have to find a new bogeyman in a foreign country. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 I watch a lot of political commentary shows on both sides of the border; The cartoon channel has political commentary? Who knew? Like the Republicans, the Conservative Party of Canada has become one of exclusion:- If you are not a Christian, you can’t be a conservative. Your long list of spurious nonsense should be boiled down to one. If you're an idiot, you can't be a Conservative. You joined the Liberal party, I understand. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Molly Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Holy crap! Point made, PT. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Oleg Bach Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Holy crap! Point made, PT. If you have a liberating attitude and want to liberally set the slaves free - you CAN be a conservative - and get a job as seniour master of the whip...as long as you are willing to beat the slaves you free - YOU too can be a conservative - and even a neo-con once you get the hang of holding all of humanity in loathing and contempt. Quote
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 You forgot one, if your a progessive liberal, the small c conservatives don't want you becuase you are not a conservative. Exactly. The Conservative party has become one of exclusion, and simply doesn't want anyone centre or left of centre. It's a 'you're either with them or against them' mentality and may explain why a majority is out of reach. And if the Party doesn't drive you away their supporters will. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Oleg Bach Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Exactly. The Conservative party has become one of exclusion, and simply doesn't want anyone centre or left of centre. It's a 'you're either with them or against them' mentality and may explain why a majority is out of reach. And if the Party doesn't drive you away their supporters will. It's going back to old style clanism - If you look back and even now at some conservative orgainizations you will notice they are all staffed by white anglos with big teeth and private family Islands in the Muscokas...Conservatives are at their core racists - even a Slavonic like myself - in my youth blonde and blue eyed was rejected because I was not anglo...look at Harpers appointments - It looks as if he has hired every last nephew and neice on the planet. Quote
Alta4ever Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) Exactly. The Conservative party has become one of exclusion, and simply doesn't want anyone centre or left of centre. It's a 'you're either with them or against them' mentality and may explain why a majority is out of reach. And if the Party doesn't drive you away their supporters will. Would the NDP really want me an anti unionist to join thier party? And why would I want to be in a prty that I have absolutly nothing in common with? A political party is a political organization that seeks to attain and maintain political power within government, usually by participating in electoral campaigns. Parties often espouse an expressed ideology or vision bolstered by a written platform with specific goals, coalition among disparate interests. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party To accommodate left of centre veiws in a right of centre party would mean the party base would dissapear. This was the lession of Dion he moved the liberals from centre left to far left, and what happened the much of the party was alienated and stayed home on election day. Edited March 19, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Oleg Bach Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Any party that would have you as a member is not a party worth joining. Quote
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 Drawing any such parallels is superficial at best, as even the CPC would be hard pressed to stay right of the American Democratic party on key domestic and foreign policy issues. Small "c" conservatism is alive and well regardless of which party it chooses to reside in. It's easier in the U.S. to separate the two sides of an issue or ideology, because you really only have two parties. However, in Canada, we have several. Harper was able to unite the right, despite the many differences, and is now clinging to his 37%; propped up mainly by the West, and the fact that he has no right-wing competition. However, the remaining 63% are from the centre or left of centre. We are the enemy, and whether we're 'arrogant' Liberal 'pricks', 'socialists (NDP), Separatists (Bloc) or Green; we're all painted with the same brush. We are not conservative and no matter what happens, we are wrong, they are right. As to small "c" conservative, the government waste and massive deficit (even before the crisis), leaves our vote now up for grabs. But apparently, according to Conservative supporters on blogs, message boards and forums, we're not welcome either. If we question spending, size of the cabinet, appointed senators and where the missing 3 billion dollars went, it automatically becomes "oh, you just hate Harper, we get it." What does hating anyone have to do with this missing money, overstuffed cabinet, spending through a huge surplus, or appointed sentators? We are fiscal conservatives. We have questions. I just think if Conservative supporters really wanted to have a majority, they would try to find common ground. Instead they've drawn the battle lines. They've set the terms. I don't meet them because I'm more of a Liberal 'prick' with 'socialist' tendencies apparently, than what passes for conservative these days. Harper's tent brought in all the right. If Ignatieff's tent can welcome everyone even slightly to the left of that, the conservatives could be in trouble. And if heaven forbid, another right-wing party enters the mix, I think it'll be game over. This one has nothing to do with George Bush. This is a made in Canada situation. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Alta4ever Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 As to small "c" conservative, the government waste and massive deficit (even before the crisis), leaves our vote now up for grabs. But apparently, according to Conservative supporters on blogs, message boards and forums, we're not welcome either. Did you ever take that political test I posted? You are not small c, you seem to have no idea what conservatism is. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) The cartoon channel has political commentary? Who knew? If you're an idiot, you can't be a Conservative. You joined the Liberal party, I understand. See that's my point exactly and thank you for helping me prove it. I compiled the list partly from posters here. You don't want anyone who questions conservative principles, or what you deem they should be. I used to be conservative, but I dared to use the 'L' word so am now banned for life. I'm not the only one who feels this way, believe me. Edited March 19, 2009 by Progressive Tory Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Oleg Bach Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 See that's my point exactly and thank you for helping me prove it. I compiled the list from partly from posters here. You don't want anyone who questions conservative principles, or what you deem they should be. I used to be conservative, but I dared to use the 'L' word so am now banned for life. I'm not the only one who feels this way, believe me. The older I get - the more conservative I become, but also the more liberal I MUST become to survive because I have no money - I have to get along with absolutely everyone in my realm - I must be accepting and tolerant - loving and as kind as possible in order to have those around me be supportive - I am now for the first time part of a community - no longer an observing conservative out sider - Conservatives have more personal wealth and they feel they don't need to care. They feel that there position is one of eternal entitlement. Quote
Molly Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Aye. What epithet do you have for me, Alta4ever? I'm a fiscal conservative, with a strong libertarian streak, and a long, hardworking history as a Progressive Conservative. There's no place for me in the Conservative party. I'm not welcome, and I'm ... seriously ... not... interested ... in being party to that mess. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Oleg Bach Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Aye. What epithet do you have for me, Alta4ever? I'm a fiscal conservative, with a strong libertarian streak, and a long, hardworking history as a Progressive Conservative. There's no place for me in the Conservative party. I'm not welcome, and I'm ... seriously ... not... interested ... in being party to that mess. You can either help them or let them fall..but who will replace them? If YOU - had your own party - then you could re-install real conservatism - that actually conserves what is good and does not attempt to hord it. Quote
Alta4ever Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Aye. What epithet do you have for me, Alta4ever? I'm a fiscal conservative, with a strong libertarian streak, and a long, hardworking history as a Progressive Conservative. There's no place for me in the Conservative party. I'm not welcome, and I'm ... seriously ... not... interested ... in being party to that mess. I wouldn't have an epithet for you but, I'm sure you and I could have a lively conversation over a cup of coffee about politics. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 It's going back to old style clanism - If you look back and even now at some conservative orgainizations you will notice they are all staffed by white anglos with big teeth and private family Islands in the Muscokas... It's not even that profound. It's just that the 'big tent' has a vast number of priorities, but at the base is the social conservative agenda that turns off us 'lefties'. I'm not even talking necessarily about the Party. If we state on this board that we're pro-Choice it automatically becomes 'you lefties are all the same' or 'what do you expect from a socialist'. if I discuss the issue with NDP/Liberal or Green, where there are a variety of stands, we can have a conversation without me calling them 'socialist', 'commie' or 'arrogant'. We're discussing abortion not politics. Only the conservatives make it political by believing they are the only party who are pro-life. It's not a partisan issue but they've excluded anyone with a differing opinion. Equal Marriage .... 'Leftie' - you're excluded. Palestine and Israel both wrong. - 'Leftie' - you're excluded. The list goes on. We still collectively represent 63% of the population. Why must you insist we stay on that side of line or why have a line at all? Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 Would the NDP really want me an anti unionist to join thier party? And why would I want to be in a prty that I have absolutly nothing in common with?This was the lession of Dion he moved the liberals from centre left to far left, and what happened the much of the party was alienated and stayed home on election day. Liberals did not have to stay home on election night. If the Conservatives had been able to sell themselves as a viable alternative, they would have voted for them. None did and in fact, the Conservatives themselves were down by almost 170,000 votes. Again exclusion. "Lefties' knew they weren't welcome on the right, and in fact many policies alienated them. You claim you wouldn't vote NDP because you're anti-union; but you've also said that there are some things about the current gov't you don't like, but still vote for them. You have no other option on the right. We on the other hand do. We can vote Liberal, NDP or Green, but since the 'Left'/'Right' battle lines have been drawn, we stay with our 'own kind'. Before the PCs went under, I never would have considered myself to be a 'Leftie'. I still chuckle when I hear the term. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 Did you ever take that political test I posted? You are not small c, you seem to have no idea what conservatism is. Again. Exclusion. I have to take a test? Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 Any party that would have you as a member is not a party worth joining. Again, exclusion. Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
Progressive Tory Posted March 19, 2009 Author Report Posted March 19, 2009 Aye. What epithet do you have for me, Alta4ever? I'm a fiscal conservative, with a strong libertarian streak, and a long, hardworking history as a Progressive Conservative. There's no place for me in the Conservative party. I'm not welcome, and I'm ... seriously ... not... interested ... in being party to that mess. You just described me as well. We should be the ones easy to lure, but we dare to challenge the Grand Master or the Grand Plan, so we are banished, along with almost a million others, at least. (based on last election) Quote "For all our modesty and self-deprecation, we’re a people who dream great dreams. And then roll up our sleeves and turn them into realities." - Michael Ignatieff "I would not want the Prime Minister to think that he could simply fail in the House of Commons as a route to another General Election. That's not the way our system works." Stephen Harper.
noahbody Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 See that's my point exactly and thank you for helping me prove it. I compiled the list from partly from posters here. The only thing your list proves is that you stereotype. Every point is ridiculous. I guess that means: If you do not stereotype, you can't be a Liberal. If you do not write ridiculous posts, you can't be a Liberal. If you're not a grandmother with the hots for Ignatieff, you can't be a Liberal. etc. Quote
DrGreenthumb Posted March 19, 2009 Report Posted March 19, 2009 Again, exclusion. Hey PT chill Oleg was talking to Alta4ever when he said that. Quote
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