Is Canada's Science Minister a creationalist?

[jdobbin]

Another stupid thread created by a leftist tinfoil hatist.

So you believe Creationism is a science?

[Oleg Bach]

You are the one who doubts his ablity to do his job, based on no facts you are just disriminating against him and his religion. You are a bigot.

It has nothing to do with bigotry. Christ was the king of logic - right up there and beyound Plato. I am sure this guy can do his job even if he is stupid in that particular area - If he believes that the earth is 6000 years old then he is not much of an archologist nor is he a good scientist.. So I take that back - he is a second rate master of science - and if we are going to have a Science Minister to serve science - then he had better be top notch.

[jdobbin]

You are the one who doubts his ablity to do his job, based on no facts you are just disriminating against him and his religion.

The fact is that he won't way if he believes in evolution. Since our science is based on teaching that, it seems that a science minister ought to believe in that. I think it would affect his ability to do the job.

[Oleg Bach]

The fact is that he won't way if he believes in evolution. Since our science is based on teaching that, it seems that a science minister ought to believe in that. I think it would affect his ability to do the job.

Our science is not based on teaching evolution..It is presented as a theory and not a rock solid doctrine. We are free to believe in both creationism - and intelligent universe and eternity along with it's design - and we are free to believe that the universe is as dumb as a cold bowl of soup and we are as smart as God...No one can definitavely state that anyone of these imaginings are real. It makes sense that creationism and intelligent design plus evolution are the same thing - we measure time - To the creator there is no time - and what to us took a million billion years to create or evolve was less than a second to a creator. This debate can be solved once we understand that time does not exist..but we are to stubborn and stupid to even imagine eternity. Some can grasp it and the concept of God and others can not - It may be a genetic gift to some to be aware - while others are not as fully aware.

[jdobbin]

views impacting his job, perhaps as big a question/concern relates to the overall CPC policy towards research...

From the Ottawa Citizen today.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/fp/F...6029/story.html

Peter Brenders has never seen it this bad. When the man who represents some of the enterprising companies in biotechnology looks at Canada’s private-sector research and development, the picture that emerges is bleak and demoralizing.

A research-intensive industry that last year contributed $78 billion to Canada’s GDP is on its knees. Vital research and innovation that fuels Canada’s health and economic prosperity is threatened.

The article will make you cry.

The program started in 2002 to make research a priority has dropped since the Tories got into power.

Perhaps if they were not giving so much to a UFO museum and more to research, we'd be doing better economically.

[jdobbin]

Our science is not based on teaching evolution.

Actually, it is.

Creationism is not taught in the class as science.

[jdobbin]

I don't think its possible for him to do his job and believe what he believes.

Maclean's wondered that too.

http://blog.macleans.ca/2009/03/17/the-que...odyear-and-bad/

So if I were all about God’s creation, I’d be a mite sheepish about funding this never-ending stream of contradictions of my faith. Big ups to the Harper Conservatives if any among them are in that situation but willing to fund science anyway. But the funny thing is, there is a branch of human inquiry that doesn’t pose a bunch of hard questions about where we humans came from, but simply studies what we do in all its richness. That’s the social sciences and its humanities. And it’s the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council that’s consistently found itself at the short end of the funding stick, and first in line for humiliating, pointless restrictions on what it can fund with too-rare new research dollars.

My very strong hunch is that it’s because the Harper Government is ashamed of what social scientists poke their noses into. The behaviour and custom of distant lands; literature in funny languages; philosophies whose tenets might not pass the screens erected by the PMO. Questions about the role of women in our society and a thousand others. It’s all so icky. Which is why the Harper government has ensured that this year’s new money for the SSHRC will fund only “business-related” graduate scholarships. And why Harper is so eager to tell visiting scientists about his plans for getting their ideas out of the lab, and so reluctant to ask them what their ideas are.

[Alta4ever]

You are all discriminating against him based on his religious beliefs, that makes you bigots. He may very capable of doing the job as he is not the one who is creating theories. That is the scientists jobs, now if one of you can find some quote were he has stated that he doesn't beleive in science or research I may with draw my bigot comment but until you do it stands you are bigots and with the response to calling you people what you are I seem to have hit a nerve.

Until you find something that is actually fact based and not religion based for him to be disqualified for this job you are all a bunch of bigots.

Since when does the Ministry of Science deal exclusively with how humans came about, creationism, intellegent design or the big bang. In fact i doubt their is very little in this position about that has anything to with this arguement.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Alta4ever

[jdobbin]

You are all discriminating against him based on his religious beliefs, that makes you bigots.

Actually, it is like asking the Defence minister whether he believes in the mission in Afghanistan. If he doesn't he shouldn't be in charge of the department.

Goodyear can't say whether he believes in one of the central articles of science: evolution. He says it is a matter of faith.

[Oleg Bach]

Actually, it is like asking the Defence minister whether he believes in the mission in Afghanistan. If he doesn't he shouldn't be in charge of the department.

Goodyear can't say whether he believes in one of the central articles of science: evolution. He says it is a matter of faith.

A Defence minister that believes in the mission in Afghanistan is a person that should step down. It is so because he is a "defence" minister and is to serve and over see the defence of this nation - not the offence against another. Faith is to believe in something you can not see or even understand - sometimes it is good faith and other times it is bad faith. If the the Science Minister operates in good faith putting his poor faith aside then that should work.

[Alta4ever]

Actually, it is like asking the Defence minister whether he believes in the mission in Afghanistan. If he doesn't he shouldn't be in charge of the department.

Goodyear can't say whether he believes in one of the central articles of science: evolution. He says it is a matter of faith.

NO its not because they have a professional job to do. Really the defense ministers job is not to decide whether or not to fight a war or how prosecute the war, it is the defense ministery that equips the military and makes sure that is ready to fight the engagements that the government has put it into.

You people are just religious bigots grasping at straws.

[Oleg Bach]

NO its not because they have a professional job to do. Really the defense ministers job is not to decide whether or not to fight a war or how prosecute the war, it is the defense ministery that equips the military and makes sure that is ready to fight the engagements that the government has put it into.

You people are just religious bigots grasping at straws.

Oh - I see ----he equips the military - he makes the deals for supplies and materials - he is the gun runner and buyer ---- I get it..His title means nothing. His job is to keep the Amerians happy - so who's defending us then?

[jdobbin]

Really the defense ministers job is not to decide whether or not to fight a war or how prosecute the war

That is exactly what a Defence minister does. The military carries out the mission but it is up to the Defence minister and cabinet to decide what the mission is and whether to go to war.

The military doesn't choose its missions. It is given a mission from which it draws up what its needs are to do that mission. All of their strategies thereafter fall from the original mandate as set by politicians.

If a Defence minister doesn't believe in the mission, he has no business being minister.

You people are just religious bigots grasping at straws.

And you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you want another analogy: You can't be the minister in charge of official languages if you don't believe in the French language. You have to believe what you are doing if you expect to be professional about it.

[Oleg Bach]

That is exactly what a Defence minister does. The military carries out the mission but it is up to the Defence minister and cabinet to decide what the mission is and whether to go to war.

The military doesn't choose its missions. It is given a mission from which it draws up what its needs are to do that mission. All of their strategies thereafter fall from the original mandate as set by politicians.

If a Defence minister doesn't believe in the mission, he has no business being minister.

And you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you want another analogy: You can't be the minister in charge of official languages if you don't believe in the French language. You have to believe what you are doing if you expect to be professional about it.

So you must believe in war to be defence minister - or just believe in buisness? Do you have to believe in justice to be Justice Minister Of Canada? - what a joke - our Chief Justice has no use for justice..just power and glamour..

[Alta4ever]

That is exactly what a Defence minister does. The military carries out the mission but it is up to the Defence minister and cabinet to decide what the mission is and whether to go to war.

The military doesn't choose its missions. It is given a mission from which it draws up what its needs are to do that mission. All of their strategies thereafter fall from the original mandate as set by politicians.

If a Defence minister doesn't believe in the mission, he has no business being minister.

And you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you want another analogy: You can't be the minister in charge of official languages if you don't believe in the French language. You have to believe what you are doing if you expect to be professional about it.

Sorry Dobbin It is not the defense minister that dictates foreign policy. It is his job to make sure the military is up to the assigned task. Cabinate as a whole can decide foreign policy but not one minister.

So a minister who only speaks english can't apprecaite the French lauguage or Culture? I'm not Scottish but am fascinated by their history.I beleive it was the english that allowed quebec to keep its idenity after winning the battle of the Plains of Abraham. Professional people are able to do a job required of them even if they do not agree with it. I have had to do this on several occasions with regard to positions I have held, this is what makes a professional a professional.

[Alta4ever]

That is exactly what a Defence minister does. The military carries out the mission but it is up to the Defence minister and cabinet to decide what the mission is and whether to go to war.

The military doesn't choose its missions. It is given a mission from which it draws up what its needs are to do that mission. All of their strategies thereafter fall from the original mandate as set by politicians.

If a Defence minister doesn't believe in the mission, he has no business being minister.

And you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you want another analogy: You can't be the minister in charge of official languages if you don't believe in the French language. You have to believe what you are doing if you expect to be professional about it.

I wonder how it is that Lord Halifax did his job during WWII as he wanted to negociate peace with the Nazi's and not continue the war, yet he remained in the Cabinate an continued to do his job no less.

[guyser]

He may very capable of doing the job as he is not the one who is creating theories.

Actually he is, the theory of creationism, not creating it mind you...

but until you do it stands you are bigots and with the response to calling you people what you are I seem to have hit a nerve.

No, I think you are deflecting .

Until you find something that is actually fact based and not religion based for him to be disqualified for this job you are all a bunch of bigots.

Will this do?

Evolution is a scientific fact, Dr. Alters said, and the foundation of modern biology, genetics and paleontology. It is taught at universities and accepted by many of the world's major religions, he said.

“It is the same as asking the gentleman, ‘Do you believe the world is flat?' and he doesn't answer on religious grounds,” said Dr. Alters. “Or gravity, or plate tectonics, or that the Earth goes around the sun.”

Since when does the Ministry of Science deal exclusively with how humans came about, creationism, intellegent design or the big bang. In fact i doubt their is very little in this position about that has anything to with this arguement.

He deals with the funding of people who study this.

Just like the Min fo Defence funds the Forces, but doesnt drive the tanks or shoot the guns.

Just like the Min of Transport funds the roads, but doesnt spread the asphalt.

Pretty simple really.

Edited March 17, 2009 by guyser

[Alta4ever]

Actually he is, the theory of creationism.

No, I think you are deflecting .

Will this do?

Evolution is a scientific fact, Dr. Alters said, and the foundation of modern biology, genetics and paleontology. It is taught at universities and accepted by many of the world's major religions, he said.

“It is the same as asking the gentleman, ‘Do you believe the world is flat?' and he doesn't answer on religious grounds,” said Dr. Alters. “Or gravity, or plate tectonics, or that the Earth goes around the sun.”

He deals with the funding of people who study this.

Just like the Min fo Defence funds the Forces, but doesnt drive the tanks or shoot the guns.

Just like the Min of Transport funds the roads, but doesnt spread the asphalt.

Pretty simple really.

Nope this guy still is able to do his job you and a great many other leftists on this board seem to think that his relgion disqualifies him from this job

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

a) freedom of conscience and religion;

Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law 15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

You are discriminating against this man you wish to deny him a job based sole on his religious beliefs.

Pretty simple really.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Alta4ever

[M.Dancer]

You are discriminating against this man you wish to deny him a job based sole on his religious beliefs.

Pretty simple really.

So you woiuld be okay with someone like a Christian Science believer in charge of Heathcare or a fundamentalist muslim in charge of the Status of Women....?

[guyser]

Nope this guy still is able to do his job you and a great many other leftists

Oops, wonder who you are tlaking about now?

on this board seem to think that his relgion disqualifies him from this job

Dont care what his religion is, thus no disqualification. On the other hand, his idiotic belief in the face of fact means, sayonora sucker.

Edited March 17, 2009 by guyser

[Molly]

Oh, get a grip!

Not agreeing is not an option, Alta!

THAT answer from a science (or education) minister-- that there might be any serious doubt about evolution-- is not only unacceptable, but deeply, deeply embarrassing to us all.

[Alta4ever]

Oops, wonder who you are tlaking about now?

Dont care what his religion is, thus no disqualification. On the other hand, his idiotic belief in the face of fact means, sayonora sucker.

Is he a creationist or a beleiver of intellegent design? Does ones beleive in either mean that they don't beleive in science or research for some science is thought to be the discover of the way god works, for others theroetical science has become a religion in itself. Either choice still means that science and research is to be followed. Science has become more about the current political accepteance then it has been about real science.

Beside you mention the face of fact, I have seen no factual evidence about how man came to be just competing theories. You just don't like this guy because he is a conservative and you are lookign for something to discredit this person. Much the the global warming cultists and their quest to discredit anyone with a differnent theory from their own.

Under this person science will continued to be funded, research will be done. This is just a drive by smear by the left of this country. The only thing that would make me change my mind is that if you found some quote from him stating that science is a farce and all science and research grants by the government would be ended. Do you have any proof that this fellow can't do the job he has been asigned, or is all you have is his faith and religion?

Edited March 17, 2009 by Alta4ever

[DrGreenthumb]

Nope this guy still is able to do his job you and a great many other leftists on this board seem to think that his relgion disqualifies him from this job

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

a) freedom of conscience and religion;

Equality Rights

Equality before and under law and equal protection and benefit of law 15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

You are discriminating against this man you wish to deny him a job based sole on his religious beliefs.

Pretty simple really.

Not so simple actually. There are circumstances when one's strongly held beliefs should proclude them from a job because there is a conflict of interest. I beleive VERY strongly in life after death and in the existance of a higher power, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in evolution. I consider myself Christian but do not believe that much of what is in the bible, especially the old testament, actually happened. I don't think it is meant to be taken literally. If this minister believes in the creation story, as presented biblicly, then he should not be the minister of science. I believe in a Creator, but do not accept the Bible as an accurate depiction of events. The bible was written by men, and was constructed as a tool of societal control.

The minister of science should be scientifically competant , and someone who believes in biblical stories, TRULY believes in them, is not. The public has a right to know, and the story should be the same in a church basement, as he tells it to a crowd of university students.

It was like having Tony Clement, the pharmaceutical dealer in as the minister of health.

I suspect they will soon be putting in an oilsands developer as minister of the environment.

[Oleg Bach]

Not so simple actually. There are circumstances when one's strongly held beliefs should proclude them from a job because there is a conflict of interest. I beleive VERY strongly in life after death and in the existance of a higher power, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in evolution. I consider myself Christian but do not believe that much of what is in the bible, especially the old testament, actually happened. I don't think it is meant to be taken literally. If this minister believes in the creation story, as presented biblicly, then he should not be the minister of science. I believe in a Creator, but do not accept the Bible as an accurate depiction of events. The bible was written by men, and was constructed as a tool of societal control.

The minister of science should be scientifically competant , and someone who believes in biblical stories, TRULY believes in them, is not. The public has a right to know, and the story should be the same in a church basement, as he tells it to a crowd of university students.

It was like having Tony Clement, the pharmaceutical dealer in as the minister of health.

I suspect they will soon be putting in an oilsands developer as minister of the environment.

Those that believe this is a huge accident and are waiting for a miracle when the miracle is life itself are fools - of course there is an intelligent force on earth and in the limitless universe - You can not have this without intelligence - although some prefere a non-intelligent force - seeing they are not intelligent and resent God which is intelligence.

[ToadBrother]

From http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

How can we have a 'Science Minister' who clearly, from his own statements, doesn't give science much credit?

Obviously he is, and one of those particularly ignorant and obnoxious kinds that assumes that Christianity is somehow opposed to particular brands of science.

Yet another reason to reject the Tories. What other party would put a Creationist in charge of science funding. What a pathetic mockery this party is making this country.