Harmonizing the GST and PST

[M.Dancer]

will mean businesses will pass on the cost savings to consumers.

A truly better way would be for the gov't to scrap the PST and to trim their expenses.

[mikedavid00]

Families are going to suffer, and those cheques aren't going to do squat, once people add up how much the government has pickpocketed from them.

Welfare for the Rich, Taxes for the Poor.

More facts:

Fact is, if you make combined $100k a year for your household, you will only get $500 back.

Fact is, those payments will be broken up in small $100ish payments each YEAR and you will only get 3 payments.

Fact is, small business owner after business owner is calling up the radio station furious becuase they are going to have to raise prices, or take less profits because of this. This ONTOP of the minimum wage increase they are paying out. All this during these economic times.

Fact is, the 'savings' they forcast companies will have is less administration and 'streamlining'.

Fact is, I was (recently laid off.. our company went bankrupt) a data analyst that worked closely with accountants and, the fact is, all the GST PST is basically combining 2 spreadsheet cell's into 1 cell. That's it on their end. And they deal with one set of paperwork instead of two. These spreadsheets are already automated and it's not an issue at the corprate level. If anything, they now have to completely overhaul their processes. This is the ONLY thing that those Chamber of Commerce people are supporting this tax for. To help streamline their cubical work. Trust me. Ask small business and the common Ontarian what they want.

Fact is, estimate for your household an additional $50-$100 more out of your budget each month. Combine that with the healtchare tax and you can see your household at $200-$400 LESS per month since McGuinty took office and services have gotten worse.

What's happening here is that they are taking more money away from the common working person, in this time of ecenomic disaster, and they are making their empires bigger. More unionized staff, more raises for them, nothing for us.

I'm honestly, seriously pissed off. I'm not joking at all when I say this, they have gone too far and I am ready to protest at Queens park and throw eggs for real. If a person like me is willing to protest, then that says a lot. I protest Europe style.

Whether right or left, they've p*ssed on all of us for too long with their controlling us, nanny state, and immigration policies and basically raping us of what little we have left. We can't find jobs, the market is saturated with foreign labor competing against Canadians (I lost a job recently to a Chinese immigrant who seriously struggles with her English), we've been cast out of our eduction systems by forgeign nationals, the only jobs paying anything are all tax payer funded, our healthcare system is corrupt and broken (recently at emergency room with 80% immigrant elderlies.. turbans and all who could not speak English and never paid into our tax system), politicians are acting in their own interest (see the previous sentance), and they are not acting on behalf of Canadians as a whole.

We've lost our voting power, social order, and the ability to stand up for what is ours - our own Country. It's not theirs.. the country does not belong to the Liberal party or any politician - it's ours and it needs to be taken back.

[mikedavid00]

The fact is market competition in a slow economy will mean businesses will pass on the cost savings to consumers.

Save your idealisms. I wasn't born yesterday. In practice, savings are never passed on to consumers when gov't gives them a break.

[85RZ500]

The fact is manufacturers just got a 8% reduction in the cost of the stuff they buy to make their products.

The fact is this could make the difference between oblivion and profitability for many businesses.

The fact is market competition in a slow economy will mean businesses will pass on the cost savings to consumers.

LOL,You sir are dreaming in technicolour

[robert_viera]

In fairness, previous governments, including Liberals, have also pushed provinces to adopt a HST on the premise that it improves Canada's competitiveness.

So Ontario consumers will be picking up the tab so that export businesses can sell things cheaper to foreigners? I assume that's what you mean by "competitiveness". Of course, we also have further cuts to corporate taxes with this budget, another Flaherty recommendation. This attempt to improve Ontario's "competitiveness" will also shift more of the tax burden off of business and onto the individual.

[Riverwind]

Save your idealisms. I wasn't born yesterday. In practice, savings are never passed on to consumers when gov't gives them a break.

So I guess you believe the free market does not work and prices never go down? I think you are one being naive.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

The fact is manufacturers just got a 8% reduction in the cost of the stuff they buy to make their products.

The fact is this could make the difference between oblivion and profitability for many businesses.

The fact is market competition in a slow economy will mean businesses will pass on the cost savings to consumers.

But they also just got an 8% increase on any services that they require - like transportation, construction, lawyers, etc, as well as increased gas, diesel, and heating oil - more on electricity, etc etc...

At the end of the day, it sounds like certain manufacturing companies might get a break (a small one once you add up all of the increases), while every other company - in particular service companies - will get the shaft just like the rest of us.

[Riverwind]

But they also just got an 8% increase on any services that they require - like transportation, construction, lawyers, etc, as well as increased gas, diesel, and heating oil - more on electricity, etc etc...

Not true at all. The government gives all businesses credits for all GST paid on inputs. That is why they call it a value added tax. All businesses will see their costs go down as a result of this move (this includes service businesses who never had to charge PST on their sales before). For that reason the average citizen will see benefits in terms of jobs saved and lower prices.

[Chuck U. Farlie]

So you are saying this will be run exactly like the current GST system is now?

In that case, you don't even have to make money (as a business) to claim money back. I ran a business in the past that during the first few months of startup I was getting GST cheques because I was buying quite a bit more than I was selling.

If that is how it will be setup, then time to dig out the ole' business number and apply for a HST account.... and time to start claiming as much as I can (once all this business starts in 16 months, that is) - even if I don't make any profit.

[madmax]

LOL,You sir are dreaming in technicolour

I concur with that statement. This isn't going to do jack squat for any manufacturer.

BTW.

Gammas are better.

[Riverwind]

So you are saying this will be run exactly like the current GST system is now?

That is the entire point of the harmaonizing. It will work exactly like the GST. It will even be collected by Ottawa so all the PST bureaucrats in Onatrio will lose their jobs (reassigned is more likely given the union).

If that is how it will be setup, then time to dig out the ole' business number and apply for a HST account.... and time to start claiming as much as I can (once all this business starts in 16 months, that is) - even if I don't make any profit.

You should not even need a HST number. You would use your existing GST number.

[madmax]

"The state of the economy is something we take very seriously. The people who have lost their jobs, the communities that are suffering need this kind of response," an emotional Duncan told reporters.

That's right, people are losing their jobs so, we need to tax heating oil, and more tax on Gasoline. We need to tax alot more items, because people are suffering.

[mikedavid00]

That's right, people are losing their jobs so, we need to tax heating oil, and more tax on Gasoline. We need to tax alot more items, because people are suffering.

An you know what else is funny?

Alchohol is taxed at 12% PST. So you might think we'll get a break and Alchohol prices will remain the same?

Nope.

They said lowering taxes on Alchohol would be 'socially irresponsible'.

Already Kelsey's have redone their menu (due to the minimum wage increase). Our starter is $10.99 now, is is a new small size, and our Burger is now $12 with less fries etc.

Now we are not going to Kelseys anymore. They've lost our business.

But seriously, I'm at the point now I just can't cut any 'extras' out of my life now. I mean.. I even stopped ordering Pizza becuase of the prices and now make it at home.

Do I have to start making my own beer now??? Like seriously, I have only dry loop internet and 1 cel phone. That's it. No other extra's. No fancy resturaunts. No pizza. No HD cable, nothing. All the things I enjoyed in the past ($7.99 Manderin Buffet as an example) I've given up due to huge price increases.

Now AGAIN they are raping us. So what left am I to cut out of my life? There's simply no more.

Do I have to live like in Russia and cut off my heating and sit here with a jacket on at home? Seriously this is where Canadians are heading.

We can no longer fund the lavish lifestyles of unionized civil servants who do absolutely nothing but hide in their cubicals and attend catored meetings and get their $70,000 paychecks with added 'french bonus' and huge vacation perks. Look at the teachers (!).

How about the the gov't immediately halt immigration, and seriuosly lay off the civil service. Each dept. by 20%. Let them be the unemployed. Let them go back to school and get ready for the real workplace.

But no. The gov't wants to 'spend more'. Meaning the gov't is growing it's empire with more civil servants. More needless police offers getting paid $100,000 a year to give out tickets.

Don't you think there's a SERIOUS PROBLEM when 1 out of 4 workers in Canada are working for the gov't? And who pays for all this? *I DO*. And I'm bleeding here about to brew my own beer to make up for the $150 a month I'll be losing.

That $150 could have been my wifes new car, but NOW WE CAN'T BUY IT. Wow there's a suprise! Are you listening McGuinty???

He's on a cloud, never worked a day in his life. His wife is a unionized teacher who collects public funds to fund her and her husbands lifestyle and works 3 hours a day works 8 months a year and gets a HUGE salary compared to the average private sector employ barely making ends meet and living in shoe boxes. He is simply disconnected from reality and this tax move is a raping of Ontarians. We can no longer afford these civil servants and funding of ethnic intrests and burdens (healthcare).

[madmax]

An you know what else is funny?

Um, that you might actually vote in an election?

[Average Joe]

The fact is market competition in a slow economy will mean businesses will pass on the cost savings to consumers.

Just like they did when the GST replaced the Manufacturers Tax. Things sure did change back then. .

[Riverwind]

Just like they did when the GST replaced the Manufacturers Tax. Things sure did change back then. .

You know checking the facts before you comment would help.

Inflation rates according to BOC: http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/rates/inflation_calc.html

1989-1990: 5.46%

1990-1991: 6.22%

1991-1992: 1.59%

1992-1993: 2.40%

The GST was introduced on Jan 1, 1991.

IOW, The claim that introduction of the GST resulted in higher prices for consumers is not supported by the facts.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Riverwind

[capricorn]

So Ontario consumers will be picking up the tab so that export businesses can sell things cheaper to foreigners? I assume that's what you mean by "competitiveness".

The CD How document I linked says "tax competitiveness". I should have clarified that. What I was pointing out is that pressing Ontario to adopt the HST was not exclusively Flaherty's idea. Past Liberal governments have also encouraged all provinces to move in that direction.

I'm no expert on taxation but I would think tax competitiveness would apply to domestic industries, not just exporters.

Of course, we also have further cuts to corporate taxes with this budget, another Flaherty recommendation.

Many economics approve of corporate tax cuts. I seem to recall the only political party to turn thumbs down on corporate tax cuts is the NDP.

This attempt to improve Ontario's "competitiveness" will also shift more of the tax burden off of business and onto the individual.

It sure looks like it to me. I agree with the Ontario PC party that a HST is good in theory but now is not the time to do it. Had McGuinty reduced the PST by one or two percentage point, then a HST would have been more palatable and the impact on Ontario residents wouldn't be so severe.

[capricorn]

An you know what else is funny?

I don't want to enrage you any more than you are now. But here goes. What would your reaction be if Ontario's inmates received the tax rebate? Think about it. Most of the inmates work at something in prison and draw a salary, no matter how puny and they spend in the prison cafeteria/store so they pay sales tax on their purchases. Remember the federal home heating rebate that was issued to some inmates? Betcha they'll get this sales tax rebate while incarcerated.

[robert_viera]

The CD How document I linked says "tax competitiveness". I should have clarified that. What I was pointing out is that pressing Ontario to adopt the HST was not exclusively Flaherty's idea. Past Liberal governments have also encouraged all provinces to move in that direction.

I'm no expert on taxation but I would think tax competitiveness would apply to domestic industries, not just exporters.

Many economics approve of corporate tax cuts. I seem to recall the only political party to turn thumbs down on corporate tax cuts is the NDP.

It sure looks like it to me. I agree with the Ontario PC party that a HST is good in theory but now is not the time to do it. Had McGuinty reduced the PST by one or two percentage point, then a HST would have been more palatable and the impact on Ontario residents wouldn't be so severe.

I don't suppose "tax competitiveness" takes into account the harm that an increased tax burden on individuals does, or the harm caused if government services must be cut (or the deficits that are incurred if they aren't cut)? I guess we can't expect businesses to care about anything that doesn't appear on their balance sheet.

If "tax competitiveness" means a race to the bottom where businesses pays less and less tax and individuals pay more and more, I wouldn't be too disappointed if Canada wasn't the most competitive.

I'll bet many economists who work for corporations approve of corporate tax cuts. I'm not sure the ones that are concerned with balancing our governments' books are quite as enamoured with them.

It wasn't too long ago that Mr. Duncan and Mr. McGuinty didn't think very much of Mr. Flaherty's advice on corporate tax cuts, so it's not just the NDP that have opposed them.

Edited March 27, 2009 by robert_viera

[Riverwind]

If "tax competitiveness" means a race to the bottom where businesses pays less and less tax and individuals pay more and more, I wouldn't be too disappointed if Canada wasn't the most competitive.

Why on earth do you believe that having individuals pay directly for the services that they receive is a 'race to the bottom'? Businesses are artifical entities. They don't really pay taxes. Any taxes they pay comes from the pockets of the individuals that buy their goods or services. Relying on business taxes is dumb because it gives people the illusion that they can get something for nothing. Much better to levy taxes on the voters directly so they can better decide whether the services received in return are worth the price. Edited March 27, 2009 by Riverwind

[robert_viera]

Why on earth do you believe that having individuals pay directly for the services that they receive is a 'race to the bottom'. Businesses are artifical entities. They don't really pay taxes. Any taxes they pay comes from the pockets of the individuals that buy their goods or services.

Of course it's all individuals who pay, ultimately. The question is which individuals will pay less and which will pay more. If "tax competitiveness" means that business owners pay less and the people who provide them with their profits (consumers) pay more, I think that's a shift in the wrong direction. We would all be better off if businesses people spent their money improving their business productivity rather than paying lobbyists to help them shift the tax burden onto others.

Edited March 27, 2009 by robert_viera

[Riverwind]

If "tax competitiveness" means that business owners pay less and the people who provide them with their profits (consumers) pay more, I think that's a shift in the wrong direction.

Where do you get the idea that more taxes on businesses means more taxes paid by those 'evil' rich people? Businesses that pay less tax are able to charge less for their products and hire more people as their business expands. Even if you assume that the lower taxes increase profits paid the to owners you still have to remember that everyone with a mutual fund is a 'business owner' who benefits from those profits.

The only case where a business tax makes sense is if it is necessary to ensure that income is not transferred out of the country without being taxed. But this objective can be achieved by withholding taxes.

[Topaz]

Here's a maybe...I was watching the finance senate committee today and it came out that the "debit card" which is a non-profit company, is thinking about charging or business will, because it cost business money every time we use it. The guy said its just being looked at now and no decision has been made. I would think we are going to be charged like a regular charge card, people will probably go back to writing cheques or go to the bank for withdrawal rather then use the debit card.

[Riverwind]

I would think we are going to be charged like a regular charge card, people will probably go back to writing cheques or go to the bank for withdrawal rather then use the debit card.

I think the government should ban the practice where credit card companies force businesses to offer the same prices who pay with credit cards. Businesses should be free to charge people differently according to their method of payment. If that means more consumers use cash then so be it (however, handling cash is not free).

[capricorn]

It wasn't too long ago that Mr. Duncan and Mr. McGuinty didn't think very much of Mr. Flaherty's advice on corporate tax cuts, so it's not just the NDP that have opposed them.

It's true that McGuinty hasn't done much to reduce corporate taxes while in office. There were a few tentative steps taken in budget 2008.

Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has been vocal in recent weeks in calling for Ontario to lower the rate to 10 per cent by 2012. But the Ontario government had made it clear it didn't favour such a move, which would cost the province $2.3-billion in annual lost revenue.

Instead, provincial Finance Minister Dwight Duncan announced a series of more targeted business tax breaks totalling $750-million over the next four years, including further relief on capital taxes, an extension of the accelerated depreciation allowances on manufacturing machinery and equipment, and a 10-year tax exemption for new companies commercializing innovations coming out of Canadian universities and research institutes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/National

I haven't heard McGuinty and Duncan speaking against corporate tax cuts. The NDP is quite vocal in opposing them. A recent example is Andrea Horwath at the recent NDP convention.

"My opponents are wrong when they say it's time for more corporate tax giveaways," Horwath says. "I believe targeted sectoral investment is the way to go, but certainly not across-the-board tax cuts. That's not helped us in any way and it's not saved jobs over the last 10 years in this province."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...BStory/WBSteele

When Horwath says "targeted" tax cuts, she means heavily unionized sectors, like the auto industry.