Not Criminally Responsible

[BubberMiley]

The trial of the guy who infamously decapitated a young man on a Greyhound bus last summer is currently taking place in Winnipeg. His defence, not surprisingly, is not guilty by reason of insanity.

I find myself torn on this one. On the one hand, it would seem insane to ever again allow a person who committed such a crime to be free. But on the other hand, it appears that he was in the midst of a psychotic episode and, because of a purely medical condition, had completely lost touch with reality. It seems that he too might be considered a victim of these circumstances.

So perhaps, with careful drug treatment and vigilant oversight, he could be somewhat cured.

But I sympathize with the dead buy's mother and totally understand why she would never want to see him on the streets again.

It's a tough problem that would have been nicely solved, I suppose, if, as many have suggested, the RCMP would have just shot him while he was defiling the body.

[capricorn]

So perhaps, with careful drug treatment and vigilant oversight, he could be somewhat cured.

It's almost a given that Li will never be found guilty.

After he completes his treatment and authorities deem him fit for release where does he go, what does he do? By all accounts the only family he had in Canada was his wife and who could blame her if she doesn't want anything to do with him. Maybe Li would decide to return to his native China. Who knows.

It's a tough problem that would have been nicely solved, I suppose, if, as many have suggested, the RCMP would have just shot him while he was defiling the body.

Although I think that would have been the best outcome for all concerned, killing Li on the spot would only have resulted in more complaints against the RCMP.

[jdobbin]

But I sympathize with the dead buy's mother and totally understand why she would never want to see him on the streets again.

It's a tough problem that would have been nicely solved, I suppose, if, as many have suggested, the RCMP would have just shot him while he was defiling the body.

I think it is agreed that he is far too dangerous to let out any time soon.

I'd rather have the RCMP act in regards to their safety and that of others. They seem to have shown some skill in apprehending the suspect without further loss of life. Although it was horrifying what was happening to the body and the police face criticism for not shooting the suspect dead for it, the police acted professionally. It is a sharp contrast to what we have seen in Vancouver.

[eyeball]

Timothy McLean sadly died a tragic horrible death and his family deserves all the compassion and sympathy Canadians can muster. There's already more than enough tragedy to go around and much of the vindictive reaction we've seen from the public has compounded this. This reaction should be viewed in light of the recent statistics on Canadian's attitudes towards mental illness which are pretty dismal.

Vincent Li very likely couldn't help himself because he was sick. In a very real sense he simply wasn't present when Timothy McLean died and could no more help himself than poor Mr McLean could. If people choose to let their ignorance about mental illness govern their reaction they should keep it to themselves because they have nothing to contribute to anyone. Fortunately these are Canadians who can help themselves.

I'd advise these to begin helping themselves by reading this and keep on reading it until it sinks in.

In no other field, except perhaps leprosy, has there been as much confusion, misdirection and discrimination against the patient, as in mental illness… Down through the ages, they have been estranged by society and cast out to wander in the wilderness. Mental illness, even today, is all too often considered a crime to be punished, a sin to be expiated, a possessing demon to be exorcised, a disgrace to be hushed up, a personality weakness to be deplored or a welfare problem to be handled as cheaply as possible.

Out of the Shadows at Last

[capricorn]

Vincent Li very likely couldn't help himself because he was sick. In a very real sense he simply wasn't present when Timothy McLean died and could no more help himself than poor Mr McLean could.

What I wonder about is whether Li has any recollection of the events. Just because he was in an altered state when he hacked and cannibalized his victim doesn't mean all memory of those tragic events is erased. What could torture a soul more than to exit that altered state and know you are the author of such gruesome atrocities. For his sake I hope he has no memory of it otherwise those memories will haunt him and be his undoing.

If people choose to let their ignorance about mental illness govern their reaction they should keep it to themselves because they have nothing to contribute to anyone. Fortunately these are Canadians who can help themselves.

I think that's a bit harsh, Eyeball. Even people sensitive to and knowledgable about the issues surrounding mental illness were horrified by that case. Let's face it, there are not enough grief counselors to go around and people have to get through it somehow. Even those who have never had to grapple with mental illness in their personal lives needed to get through it. Sometimes getting though it simply means venting your emotions.

[Muddy]

The horror the poor Mom lives everyday and now she has to sit through this trial is beyond what a parent should have to bare. It would have been so much kinder for all concerned if the RCMP had dispatched the killer at the scene.

[DrGreenthumb]

The horror the poor Mom lives everyday and now she has to sit through this trial is beyond what a parent should have to bare. It would have been so much kinder for all concerned if the RCMP had dispatched the killer at the scene.

I don't think anyone would have complained if the RCMP has put a bullet between this guy's eyes. While I disagree with criminalizing people for non-violent activities , I have little sympathy for those who commit acts of violence. The world would be better off without Vince Li, and I don't give a shit how crazy he is, a well placed bullet isthe best cure for THAT kind of crazy.

[Wilber]

I don't think anyone would have complained if the RCMP has put a bullet between this guy's eyes. While I disagree with criminalizing people for non-violent activities , I have little sympathy for those who commit acts of violence. The world would be better off without Vince Li, and I don't give a shit how crazy he is, a well placed bullet isthe best cure for THAT kind of crazy.

So much for The Charter.

[capricorn]

I don't think anyone would have complained if the RCMP has put a bullet between this guy's eyes.

You may be right. But you can be sure there would have been a thorough, in-depth and very expensive inquiry into why the RCMP offed him.

While I disagree with criminalizing people for non-violent activities , I have little sympathy for those who commit acts of violence.

Conrad Black committed a non violent crime. What about Chuck Guite and others found guilty of fraud as a result of the Gomery inquiry. You disagree with their prosecutions?

[eyeball]

What I wonder about is whether Li has any recollection of the events. Just because he was in an altered state when he hacked and cannibalized his victim doesn't mean all memory of those tragic events is erased. What could torture a soul more than to exit that altered state and know you are the author of such gruesome atrocities. For his sake I hope he has no memory of it otherwise those memories will haunt him and be his undoing.

Judging by my experience with psychotic people and their doctors I doubt if Li has any recollection whatsoever. I think the only thing that could torture him more than finding out what happened would be the absolute isolation and hatred he knows is out there. Recall he wanted to be killed afterwards.

I think that's a bit harsh, Eyeball. Even people sensitive to and knowledgable about the issues surrounding mental illness were horrified by that case.

Horrified yes but not vindictive or vengeful.

Let's face it, there are not enough grief counselors to go around and people have to get through it somehow. Even those who have never had to grapple with mental illness in their personal lives needed to get through it. Sometimes getting though it simply means venting your emotions.

The fact there aren't enough counselors or enough treatment or doctors to treat mental illness and the effects mental illnes can have on society simply reflects the dismal pubic attitudes I mentioned. If people don't care neither will the policy makers who could do something about this.

[eyeball]

I don't think anyone would have complained if the RCMP has put a bullet between this guy's eyes. While I disagree with criminalizing people for non-violent activities , I have little sympathy for those who commit acts of violence. The world would be better off without Vince Li, and I don't give a shit how crazy he is, a well placed bullet isthe best cure for THAT kind of crazy.

Now you know exactly how the more rabid prohibitionists feel about you.

If you've been paying attention at all you'll recall that the crew I've been describing that want to bring about a Stalinist solution to drug addiction also pressured local authorities to disallow a treatment facility for mentally ill people. It was the very same bunch of people. To them there is little difference between a drug addict and Vincent Li. Nor is there much difference between how they or you would 'treat' them.

The fact is mental illness and addiction do go together like peas and carrots, which is why we employ mental illness and addiction workers. Somehow I doubt you would ever advocate putting a bullet through an addicts head but perhaps I'm wrong. People's attitudes can sometimes make them say and do the craziest things.

[eyeball]

So much for The Charter.

Its a funny world alright.

[DrGreenthumb]

Now you know exactly how the more rabid prohibitionists feel about you.

If you've been paying attention at all you'll recall that the crew I've been describing that want to bring about a Stalinist solution to drug addiction also pressured local authorities to disallow a treatment facility for mentally ill people. It was the very same bunch of people. To them there is little difference between a drug addict and Vincent Li. Nor is there much difference between how they or you would 'treat' them.

The fact is mental illness and addiction do go together like peas and carrots, which is why we employ mental illness and addiction workers. Somehow I doubt you would ever advocate putting a bullet through an addicts head but perhaps I'm wrong. People's attitudes can sometimes make them say and do the craziest things.

If an addict kills someone and decapitates them I say he can have a bullet too. I am about personal responsibility, not blaming your actions on drugs or mental illness. So I'm all for better treatment of people with mental illness but when they become a danger and start killing people, I put public safety above the individual's right to life. And like I said, same goes for an addict that kills. Once you cross that line, don't bother trying to blame the booze or drugs, cuz I don't really care WHY you killed someone, only that you are dangerous and the pubic deserves to be protected from you.

Also Conrad black and other big time thieves are victimizers, they have wronged other people, stolen their money. I consider theft a form of violence.

[Wilber]

Its a funny world alright.

Well, lets see if I get this straight. If the cops interfere with the good doctor's dope smoking, they are jack booted Nazi thugs but they can summarily execute someone if they have his personal approval. Is that the gist of it?

[Oleg Bach]

The trial of the guy who infamously decapitated a young man on a Greyhound bus last summer is currently taking place in Winnipeg. His defence, not surprisingly, is not guilty by reason of insanity.

I find myself torn on this one. On the one hand, it would seem insane to ever again allow a person who committed such a crime to be free. But on the other hand, it appears that he was in the midst of a psychotic episode and, because of a purely medical condition, had completely lost touch with reality. It seems that he too might be considered a victim of these circumstances.

So perhaps, with careful drug treatment and vigilant oversight, he could be somewhat cured.

But I sympathize with the dead buy's mother and totally understand why she would never want to see him on the streets again.

It's a tough problem that would have been nicely solved, I suppose, if, as many have suggested, the RCMP would have just shot him while he was defiling the body.

If this monster who stuck his head out of the bus holding a head had been in China - or Russia or America etc.. law enforcement would have killed him immediately..that's what you do with someone licking up human blood with a hand full of wet hair and a head attatched. It's not a case of defilement of a body - It's the fact that this creep was pure evil - and when the opportunity exists to briskly remove that evil you do it...but of course there is sweet policy in place to retrieve these monsters so some doctors and curious students can experiment on the killer and gather "useful" information on the phenomena. I don't like the term psychotic episode - it sounds like liberalistic apologyism at it's best -

When ever anyone no matter who they are committ a crime of this nature...It is not an "episode" - we may as well say - that pedophiles - bank robbers - fraud artists were simply having a psychotic episode....IF this jerk knew that the second he stuck himself in range and sight of a police sniper that he would be dead - he would never have shown himself - He knows that they will not shoot him....and that knowledge is our weakness.. They should have executed him on the spot - and no one would care.. Of course there would have been an inquiry and some freaks would have stood up and said "You did not have to kill the poor man - he was having an episode and with treatment we could re-habilitate the dear fellow" - AND a cop would have to have taken a holiday with pay -- There is no re-habilitation for anyone that has the spirit and mind to chop off a human head with a knife. The only re-hablitation is execution - and not by the state...because we don't do that..

[Wilber]

They should have executed him on the spot - and no one would care..

Who is they? People do not become police officers so they can be executioners. If you want executioners, hire people who want to do that job or do it yourself.

[Oleg Bach]

Who is they? People do not become police officers so they can be executioners. If you want executioners, hire people who want to do that job or do it yourself.

There is always one willing executioner in the ranks of all police forces - In my highly urban area - or just outside of it -- If the police get a gun call - some nut standing off..You will see a special non-civilian ambulance race to the scene - I call it the "meat wagon". From what I decern this ambulance specialized in gun calls - and police are ready to kill if need be or the need is percieved or by mistake - none the less --- they are prepared - to execute - so where have you been living - dream land. As for the THEY apparently they were not available to do the job - but THEY were there when THEY were needed to remove Dudley George.

Also: An Asian gang had set up a very lucrative prostitution ring in the Markham area - The local cops were very preturbed that these people dare attempt to control their turf -- THEY found an SUV in a parking lot...two dead prostitutes and their handler.. The body dumping took place near my then rural home - I was eventually questioned if I had seen anything - I did see a lot of police activity --- a second set of inspectors showed up - I looked at them and coldly said - maybe law enforcement killed them to maintain dominace and order - the two very bright officers did not even flinch - they turned and walked out after a very pleasant fare well - all is possible. What would be better - to encourage gangs to take over the nation.... If the police are sure and there is a real danger and threat to the community - they will sometimes do what has to be done.. sorry - I may be wrong and incorrect about what I stated - but logic dictates and I doubt that I am in error.

[Wilber]

There is always one willing executioner in the ranks of all police forces - In my highly urban area - or just outside of it -- If the police get a gun call - some nut standing off..You will see a special non-civilian ambulance race to the scene - I call it the "meat wagon". From what I decern this ambulance specialized in gun calls - and police are ready to kill if need be or the need is percieved or by mistake - none the less --- they are prepared - to execute - so where have you been living - dream land. As for the THEY apparently they were not available to do the job - but THEY were there when THEY were needed to remove Dudley George.

Also: An Asian gang had set up a very lucrative prostitution ring in the Markham area - The local cops were very preturbed that these people dare attempt to control their turf -- THEY found an SUV in a parking lot...two dead prostitutes and their handler.. The body dumping took place near my then rural home - I was eventually questioned if I had seen anything - I did see a lot of police activity --- a second set of inspectors showed up - I looked at them and coldly said - maybe law enforcement killed them to maintain dominace and order - the two very bright officers did not even flinch - they turned and walked out after a very pleasant fare well - all is possible. What would be better - to encourage gangs to take over the nation.... If the police are sure and there is a real danger and threat to the community - they will sometimes do what has to be done.. sorry - I may be wrong and incorrect about what I stated - but logic dictates and I doubt that I am in error.

Bullshit.

[Oleg Bach]

Bullshit.

There is an old passage out of the book of John "Young men you are strong for you have mastered evil" - hate to break it to you - this bit of ancient advice does not mean to practice evil - but to fully understand it and master it....you seem shocked that evil exists within what you consider established and refined society. What makes the status quo any more ethical here than say in China? Are we better? We must be the same - after all we trade with each other which means if you trade with China then you approve of human rights abuses..but you will never admit to that - You may believe you are establishment...and establishment can do no wrong - establishement is just the family that won the feud - by destroying the other.. Bullshit......I saw the face and the face did not flinch when insulted - that singnifys some sort of knowledge of evil.

[guyser]

Who is they? People do not become police officers so they can be executioners. If you want executioners, hire people who want to do that job or do it yourself.

Agreed.

However had one person stayed on that bus, and Li started to move towards that person....I dont think there is a cop in the land that would have not shot Li.

[Oleg Bach]

Agreed.

However had one person stayed on that bus, and Li started to move towards that person....I dont think there is a cop in the land that would have not shot Li.

What ever happened to doing something out of spite. They say that revenge and justice are not the same - I feel that they might be. Sure we supposedly live in a lawful nation and there is due process and all that - at great expense and stress for all....but --- when a guy is carrying a human head and eating human flesh - I would say he stands totally convicted and that the formality of a trial is not a neccessity.. Then we have to look at the mental health issues - and all that....hypocritally the defense of insantity rarely is effective.. This is probably one of the most horrific incidents in memory...frankly I believe that cops could not believe their eyes let alone put an eye to a gun sight.

[Wilber]

There is an old passage out of the book of John "Young men you are strong for you have mastered evil" - hate to break it to you - this bit of ancient advice does not mean to practice evil - but to fully understand it and master it....you seem shocked that evil exists within what you consider established and refined society. What makes the status quo any more ethical here than say in China? Are we better? We must be the same - after all we trade with each other which means if you trade with China then you approve of human rights abuses..but you will never admit to that - You may believe you are establishment...and establishment can do no wrong - establishement is just the family that won the feud - by destroying the other.. Bullshit......I saw the face and the face did not flinch when insulted - that singnifys some sort of knowledge of evil.

I'm not shocked, I know the establishment can and does occasionally do wrong, I don't consider our society particularly refined and it is relatively young compared to many societies in this world. I do know a few cops and none of them wants to kill anyone. If they did, there would be a lot more dead A holes in this world and we would have no gang problems. The restraint they show considering the number of restrictions they face and our catch and release judicial system is a thing of wonder.

[Wilber]

Agreed.

However had one person stayed on that bus, and Li started to move towards that person....I dont think there is a cop in the land that would have not shot Li.

Of course they would but the reason for doing so would be to protect that person, not kill Li

If you want to kill criminals, reinstate capital punishment and be serious about it, don't expect some police officer to be your proxy executioner. Take some responsibility for it yourself.

[Oleg Bach]

Of course they would but the reason for doing so would be to protect that person, not kill Li

If you want to kill criminals, reinstate capital punishment and be serious about it, don't expect some police officer to be your proxy executioner. Take some responsibility for it yourself.

We could advocate capital punishment or execution by cop - but none want to get their hands dirty...I guess that's what the big burly guy in the hood with the axe was all about - doing the dirty work.

[eyeball]

Of course they would but the reason for doing so would be to protect that person, not kill Li

If you want to kill criminals, reinstate capital punishment and be serious about it, don't expect some police officer to be your proxy executioner. Take some responsibility for it yourself.

If the state were to start executing sick people, I'd probably be inclined to take up arms against it. It would be criminally irresponsible to not do something.

It goes without saying, or should, that we all know what Jesus would do. I'll always remember that scene in k-Pax when Prot informs Dr. Powell that everyone else in the galaxy knows the difference between right and wrong at birth.