Russia Approaching Canadian Airspace!

[Progressive Tory]

Our military is not in nearly as deplorable a condition as you seem to think.

Our military is just fine. They know how to react because these occurances are routine. Unfortunately so is Conservative gibberish.

[Progressive Tory]

Many Bears still soldier on. The Russian tailgunner holding up a Pepsi was my favorite shot from the Cold War intercept days. The Mya-4 Bison is the one that seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.

I tend to agree with the official report"

" Russia informed Canada that the Arctic patrol was taking place. How long in advance we don't know in this case, but past notices have been anywhere from several days to a few hours before the sortie."

I know smack about planes, which is still more than I care to know, but maybe you can decypher this:

"The distance from CFB Cold Lake to 150 km north of Tuktoyaktuk (just shy of where the Russian aircraft were/was reported to have been intercepted) is 2175 km. The ferry range of a CF-18 (CF-188 if you prefer) is reported as 3330 km. The combat radius of a CF-18 is 540 km. Since an interceptor is not flying without a substantial air-to-air weapons package, it would mean that Cold Lake based CF-18s would have had to complete at least one in-flight refuelling enroute to intercept. That's not a big deal, but it does slow down the advance of the interceptors. And it means executing a rather elaborate program of logistics and rendezvous. Again, no big deal but a lot of execution and there is the matter of the where the air tanker comes from.

Unless.... there were CF-18s already sitting on the ground at a Forward Operating Location in the North West Territories. Now, that would be a coincidence.

If the approaching aircraft was a Tu-160 Blackjack, a Cold Lake scramble would be hard pressed to make an intercept without NORAD having some prior knowledge. And that would indeed make MacKay's, Harper's and Hawn's blustering a complete farce."

This was about MacKay turning a routine mission into an international incident because he's vying for a job with NATO. If he's this much of a blowhard, I doubt he'll get it.

Who cares if we have fighter jets or planes with elastic bands? It was routine and expected. The only danger, as the original poster pointed out, would have been a Conservative majority who apparently would have just shot it down.

[GostHacked]

The MIG 35 would be a a very tough opponent for a F-18.

Interesting piece of kit. I have always loved Russian aircraft.

[Alta4ever]

I tend to agree with the official report"

" Russia informed Canada that the Arctic patrol was taking place. How long in advance we don't know in this case, but past notices have been anywhere from several days to a few hours before the sortie."

I know smack about planes, which is still more than I care to know, but maybe you can decypher this:

"The distance from CFB Cold Lake to 150 km north of Tuktoyaktuk (just shy of where the Russian aircraft were/was reported to have been intercepted) is 2175 km. The ferry range of a CF-18 (CF-188 if you prefer) is reported as 3330 km. The combat radius of a CF-18 is 540 km. Since an interceptor is not flying without a substantial air-to-air weapons package, it would mean that Cold Lake based CF-18s would have had to complete at least one in-flight refuelling enroute to intercept. That's not a big deal, but it does slow down the advance of the interceptors. And it means executing a rather elaborate program of logistics and rendezvous. Again, no big deal but a lot of execution and there is the matter of the where the air tanker comes from.

Unless.... there were CF-18s already sitting on the ground at a Forward Operating Location in the North West Territories. Now, that would be a coincidence.

If the approaching aircraft was a Tu-160 Blackjack, a Cold Lake scramble would be hard pressed to make an intercept without NORAD having some prior knowledge. And that would indeed make MacKay's, Harper's and Hawn's blustering a complete farce."

This was about MacKay turning a routine mission into an international incident because he's vying for a job with NATO. If he's this much of a blowhard, I doubt he'll get it.

Who cares if we have fighter jets or planes with elastic bands? It was routine and expected. The only danger, as the original poster pointed out, would have been a Conservative majority who apparently would have just shot it down.

Who ever you are quoting is a moron who know nothing of the military preparation. We always have cf-18's sitting in that forward operating base. Squadrons are rotated in and out very frequently up there. I suggest you quit taking the news as the "gospel truth", much of what is in it is speculation, they have no real clue how our military runs or the organization of norad. In fact it is very routine that the MSM gets its info wrong, and places retractions and corrections in the back of the papers away from the headlines.

These intercepts may have some degree of routine they ar neither simiple nor is ment as a friendly gesture, this all goes back to the baiting and testing that was done during the cold war, and if some one gets a little nervous and trigger happy the world will change in an instant. It is people who have attitutes such as yours on these matters that invites touble, these must be given the proper attention and never never be treated as mundain and routine.

[Alta4ever]

Interesting piece of kit. I have always loved Russian aircraft.

They almost always find the simple way of doing things, and yet their aircraft alaways seem to compete with the western fighters. With a skilled pilot Russian aircraft are very danagerous and can flame any American in an instant.

[M.Dancer]

They almost always find the simple way of doing things, and yet their aircraft alaways seem to compete with the western fighters. With a skilled pilot Russian aircraft are very danagerous and can flame any American in an instant.

Has there ever been an american craft since 1970 flamed by a russian?

[Alta4ever]

Has there ever been an american craft since 1970 flamed by a russian?

When since 1970 has there been an airbattle with Russian pilots?

[GostHacked]

Has there ever been an american craft since 1970 flamed by a russian?

I don't think either side wants to really test those options, knowing the repercussions. The only US plane that I can think of that was brought down by the Russians was the U2 back in the 60's, before your 70s mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-2_Crisis_of_1960

The 1960 U-2 incident occurred during the Cold War on May 1, 1960 when an American U-2 spy plane was shot down over the Soviet Union. At first, the United States government denied the plane's purpose and mission, but was forced to admit its role as a covert surveillance aircraft when the Soviet government produced its remains (largely intact) and surviving pilot, Gary Powers. Coming just over two weeks before the scheduled opening of an East-West summit in Paris, the incident was a great embarrassment to the United States[1] and prompted a marked deterioration in its relations with the Soviet Union.

Mind you it was not a fighter on fighter situation.

[M.Dancer]

When since 1970 has there been an airbattle with Russian pilots?

1970 War of attrition

1973 Yom Kippor war

and no doubt other times...

[Alta4ever]

1970 War of attrition

1973 Yom Kippor war

and no doubt other times...

Those were Russian Aircraft not pilots.

[M.Dancer]

Those were Russian Aircraft not pilots.

Actually, those were russian pilots....

On June 25th however, this "cease-fire" was broken when an Israeli Skyhawk, on an attack sortie against Egyptian forces on the Canal, was pursued by a pair of Mig-21s into the Sinai. One of the Migs launched an air-to-air missile against the Skyhawk, damaging it and forcing it to land in a nearby air base. This aggresive act on the part of the Russians and their intrusion into Israeli air space canceled any Israeli reservations about confronting the USSR. A plan began forming for a purely Soviet-Israeli confrontation where the Russians were to be taught that they are out of their league. Set to take place a third of the way between the city of Suez and Cairo, 12 of Israel's best fighter pilots, together credited with 59 enemy aircraft kills, were recruited for this specific mission.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/han...48/operate5.htm

One should recall Russian fighter pilots flew Syrians Migs during the Yom Kippur war of 1973 and again during the 1981-2 Lebanon/PLO/Israeli war. At that time the Russian military threat against the State of Israel was very real.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:re6L_R...cd=29&gl=ca

[M.Dancer]

Those were Russian Aircraft not pilots.

Besides..you said...

With a skilled pilot Russian aircraft are very danagerous and can flame any American in an instant.

To my knowledge, no Israeli or american has flown a russian craft in combat....

[Rue]

Getting back to the topic it was a transparent photo media op and everyone knows that. The op was generated while Peter Mac was visiting the Norad Commander. This is not nor will it be the last time Stevie boy uses F18's as a back drop for photo ops as he did earlier in the year.

Russian Bears are ancient turbo prop bombers. They have been prodding and timing air responses since they were originally built. The plane is not going to attack anyone but it will poke and prod to tiem reaction time and take photoes.

There is nothing new about it.

Harper is posing.

On a more serious note, control over our Artic waters and air corridor is a serious matter not just because of renewed and aggressive Russian claims to the North but also because of equally as problematic challenges to our sovereignty by the US, Britain, France, Denmark and Norway to name a few. Now mind you I doubt any of those nations will attack us and I am sure eventually we will come up with a mutual agreement with them over how to best use the North but with Russia unlike the others, Vladimir Putin is a wild card.

Personally I would not trust him any more than Paris Hilton telling me its only a pimple.

[Rue]

Besides..you said...

To my knowledge, no Israeli or american has flown a russian craft in combat....

I read an interesting article where an Israeli pilot who tested a MIG Foxbat said he would not be caught dead flying one of them or would be caught dead if he flew one of them. They don't seem to be held in high esteem.

A former fighter pilot friend of mine from Israel said the Tom Cat was the favourite and of course the Phantom before that. Skyhawks and Harrier Jets they have respect for too but I guess the Harrier Jets are not something they like because of the sand problems. They like the Warthog.

The Tornado and Mirage generation of fighters is not something that seems to have impressed. I suspect it is the Israeli bias to their close industrial affiliation and research and development function for US air fighter makers..

The F-16's and F-18's and Kfir Jets all have their supporters but from what I gather is everyone agrees on the TomCat F-14.

Its interesting. I was told the Kfir jet had too sophisticated a compuer system and the pilots didn't trust the over computerized functions and asked it to go back to giving more control to the pilot to make the decisions.

From what I gather the F fighters and Tornadoes of today have sophisticated jamming and cloaking devices they once did not have.

Friggin expensive is all I know.

[Oleg Bach]

The MIG 35 would be a a very tough opponent for a F-18.

De-evolved to boys and toys..so what about dealing with the Russians so they respect us - is that not what this thread is about?

[Progressive Tory]

Getting back to the topic it was a transparent photo media op and everyone knows that. The op was generated while Peter Mac was visiting the Norad Commander. This is not nor will it be the last time Stevie boy uses F18's as a back drop for photo ops as he did earlier in the year.

Russian Bears are ancient turbo prop bombers. They have been prodding and timing air responses since they were originally built. The plane is not going to attack anyone but it will poke and prod to tiem reaction time and take photoes.

There is nothing new about it.

Harper is posing.

On a more serious note, control over our Artic waters and air corridor is a serious matter not just because of renewed and aggressive Russian claims to the North but also because of equally as problematic challenges to our sovereignty by the US, Britain, France, Denmark and Norway to name a few. Now mind you I doubt any of those nations will attack us and I am sure eventually we will come up with a mutual agreement with them over how to best use the North but with Russia unlike the others, Vladimir Putin is a wild card.

Personally I would not trust him any more than Paris Hilton telling me its only a pimple.

Very well put. It was all hype, but still a dangerous game. I don't think NATO hires nuts.

[GostHacked]

Besides..you said...

To my knowledge, no Israeli or american has flown a russian craft in combat....

Now you are just nitpicking on language. I think you understand what he is saying.

Oleg

De-evolved to boys and toys..so what about dealing with the Russians so they respect us - is that not what this thread is about?

Come on, you know when the debate gets tough, someone always sidetracks the thread.

[M.Dancer]

Now you are just nitpicking on language. I think you understand what he is saying.

I understood what he said in both ways that it was construed and in both ways it was erroneous.

[chuck]

Canada should be sending more military up north for training in the artic region. Canada does not have enough resources up north to defend this disputed territory if it had to. Possession of this area is very important to all Canadians, if they know it or not. If a Canadian presence is always there for training exercises, development, research, etc... This would give us the upper hand in the claim that this is our part of the world. Dont sit idle and watch what happens, get out there and make somthing happen. This is just my opinion. Thanks.

[Smallc]

Canada should be sending more military up north for training in the artic region.

Well, we just finished 2 operations in the last couple months (Boxtop, and the other one...with the rangers and the sled dogs), and the biggest one should be starting up any day now. This year, operation Nanook will take place further north than ever before.

[chuck]

Thanks smallc that is good to know. The more we are there the better.

[Smallc]

Thanks smallc that is good to know. The more we are there the better.

Yes, I agree. This year marks the first time that the C-17 was flown to Alert. It made operation Boxtop very short given the jets carrying capacity. Over the next couple of years, the naval station at Naiasivik will be built. Once the ship building contracts are signed with the 2 shiyards, we'll have many more arctic capable vessels, as most of the ships going forward will have better arctic capability (this includes the 2 (possibly 3) joint support ships to replace the supply ships, the arctic offshore patrol vessels, the first of the single class surface combatants to replace the destroyers, the replacement for the offshore oceanographic research vessel CCGS Hudson, and the 3 larger vessels replacing the current 4 offshore fisheries research vessels for the CCG, and the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker . All these ships will have better ice capability than the ones they replace. Also, I would expect several more examples of the Diefenbaker (though possibly smaller versions) to be constructed over the next 20 - 25 years to replace our current fleet of 6 medium to heavy icebreakers.

In other areas, we're also improving. Fighter jets are often forward deployed to places like Inuvik and Goose Bay to increase of presence in the north. There is a great deal of work going on, even if more needs to be done.

[Machjo]

Looks like Ivan is up to his old tricks again, the world economy goes bad the first thing that happens is that countries start looking for resources in places that don t belong to them. If one of these Tu-95's ("Bear") or Tu-160's enters our airspace we should bring down with a sidewinder....send a message to Russia they would do the same if we entered their airspace. These occurences is exactly why we need a majority Conservative government,somebody that will rearm this country against a threat that never really went away just subsided for awhile. Ivan will always be a threat....we just have to build an armed force to challenge it.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/02/27/arctic-russia.html

First off we must bear in mind that the Russian aircraft have never yet entered Canadian airspace, thus they had technically gone as far as international law would permit. That said, such moves, even if technically legal, are still provocative and morally inappropriate.

I can see two solutions:

1. As a short-term solution, warn Russia that should any of its military aircraft enter Canadian airspace without our consent, we will destroy it; and

2. Open a dialogue with Russia to find out why it's doing this; and Canadian ought to have a right to know too.

3. Consult with Canadians, based on whatever we learn from 3. above, on what the next step ought to be.

[Machjo]

If they enter our airspace that is a direct threat! and i said IF they enter our airspace shoot them down....in case you didn't know we are a part of Nato which means the U.S. would come to our aid...and if you hadn't notice the U.S. scrambled

2 f-15's with our planes to fend them off, your right we can't take on the Russians which says something about the depletion of our military thanks to a sissy Liberal Government and is why i personally think Canada should rearm with a small but effective modern military as well as a small Nuclear deterent as well! If we want to live in a free country we should at least be able to defend it!

Hmmm... let's see now. Russia has about 10 times Canada's population. That means it has ten times the taxpayers. That means for us to have as powerful a military force as the Russians, we'd have to spend ten times more per capita than the Russians would, thus putting a fair bit more pressure on our economy than the Russians would experience. And if we consider that Russia itself nearly bankrupted itself to build such a force, we'd certainly bankrupt ourselves in trying to match them with a tenth of the population (and thus taxpayer) base.

We can draw a similar parallel to the US. Since the US too has about 10 times Canada's population, and has also sacrificed its economic well-being in achieving the military supremacy it has today, and that's with ten times the taxpayer base, it would be insane for us to try to match them.

The argument that Canada needs to have a military that can match any other is fallacious at best. An extreme equivalent would be like a country with the population base of the Republic of San Marino trying to have as big a military force as the US, when chances are the US military has more members than the Republic of San Marino has citizens.

[Machjo]

Yeah right... They're lauching a full scale attack with two bombers...

That little game has been played for decades... They test our (Canada and U.S.) defense, get inside our airspace just long enough for our fighters to show up, then turn back. And we do the same.

Good point. If a Canadian military aircraft should enter Russian airspace and get blown out of the sky, that would be well within Russia's rights. Now for humanitarian reasons, it would be nice for Russia to first engage the aircraft over the radio waves to ensure the pilot is aware he's just entered Russian airspace and is not in need of assistance of any kind, but once it's established that that's not the case, then absolutely Russia would be well within its rights to down that aircraft and bring the issue up at the UN General Assembly to have the international community condemn Canada's act of aggression.

The same should apply reciprocally if a Russian aircraft should enter Canadian airspace. Then again, as far as I'm concerned, Canada should cease and desist from such activities if it is indeed doing such. After all, how can we criticize Russia if we're the one's provoking it. Granted Russia is no better for simply childishly reciprocating rather than just bringing the issue up at the UN; but if we're doing it, then we're birds of the same feather and so deserve each other.