this is why israel doesn't want a just peace

[dub]

Israel seizes land for settlement expansion

Israel opened the way for possible expansion of the Efrat settlement by taking control of a nearby West Bank hill of 423 acres. The rocky plot was recently designated state land and is part of a master plan that envisions the settlement growing from 9,000 to 30,000 residents, Efrat Mayor Oded Revivi said.

who here doesn't want to acknowledge the smelly elephant in the room?

this is why israel doesn't want peace and by israel, i mean the right wing, fascist and racist israelis who control the government. they know that any peace deal will inevitably include agreeing to no more settlements and no more land, even giving back a chunk of what they've already stolen.

Edited February 18, 2009 by dub

[dub]

i'm sure this will make israel far more secure than before. why else would such a peaceloving and fairminded nation do such a thing?

[Oleg Bach]

i'm sure this will make israel far more secure than before. why else would such a peaceloving and fairminded nation do such a thing?

They are a nation of brain washed haters....The Israelites that are resonable are pushed out of mainstream Jewish society. Stange thing is that this intergenerational conditioning of the mind to hate is re-inforced by out siders - Americans - Jewish lobbyists in the Arms buisness and so on...It gets real tiresome when the idot right wing Chirstian fundies give full support to the infidelic Bush who in tern supports some askew idea that these are God's special people and the rest of the world is not...It's really quite a bizarre situation. Especially with a deeply secularized population in Israel that grows bigger with every generation.

[dub]

it's odd not seeing the zionist sympathizers coming in here and try to justify this.

[bush_cheney2004]

it's odd not seeing the zionist sympathizers coming in here and try to justify this.

Ok...stop begging for attention.

I guess you figured it all out....there will be no peace...not ever.

And that is OK.

As for the settlements, they are just more chips for the long running poker game.

Israel has the biggest pile of chips!

[JB Globe]

They're about as big a barrier to progress in the region as suicide bombings are.

[dub]

They are a nation of brain washed haters....The Israelites that are resonable are pushed out of mainstream Jewish society. Stange thing is that this intergenerational conditioning of the mind to hate is re-inforced by out siders - Americans - Jewish lobbyists in the Arms buisness and so on...It gets real tiresome when the idot right wing Chirstian fundies give full support to the infidelic Bush who in tern supports some askew idea that these are God's special people and the rest of the world is not...It's really quite a bizarre situation. Especially with a deeply secularized population in Israel that grows bigger with every generation.

even though the israeli government has always supported settlement expansion, the majority of israelis are actually against the settlements.

however, what i found interesting during israel's attack on gaza was the overwhelming number of israelis who supported the slaughter while the rest of the world did not. a friend of mine who lived in israel for a few years in the 90's and has family living there, tried to explain the reason for this. he mentioned that it mostly had to do with the mainstream media in israel which continues to be a mouthpiece for the israeli government. the government issued a ban on media from covering the story inside gaza so all the media could rely on was information released by the military while the pundits and zionists kept pushing the victim button.

Edited February 19, 2009 by dub

[dub]

They're about as big a barrier to progress in the region as suicide bombings are.

when was the last time there was a suicide attack inside israel?

settlements have been happening for well over 40 years.. suicide attacks are a bit over 10 years old.

people have to accept that israel does not want a just peace because it is controlled by right wing fanatics who still see a vision of a "greater israel".

[bush_cheney2004]

...people have to accept that israel does not want a just peace because it is controlled by right wing fanatics who still see a vision of a "greater israel".

We are trying to do just that but you keep complaining about it.

There is no such thing as a "just peace".

Edited February 19, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[dub]

We are tring to do just that but you keep complaining about it.

There is no such thing as a "just peace".

this is why we've created rules and moral standards for ourselves. this is why we have the geneva convention and rules of war. this is why we have human rights. you break these rules or try to justify breaking these rules, you're supporting unjust behaviour.

[Argus]

even though the israeli government has always supported settlement expansion, the majority of israelis are actually against the settlements.

however, what i found interesting during israel's attack on gaza was the overwhelming number of israelis who supported the slaughter while the rest of the world did not.

The Syrian government killed 50,000 people in the city of Hamas when some of them decided they wanted a different form of government.

The Iranians forced thousands and tens of thousands of untrained teenagers to run out into the fields at Iraqi fortifications in their war, simply to absorb the cannon and machinegun fire.

Something like a quarter million people have been butchered in Darfur by allies of the Sudanese government.

And in Gaza? Something less than 1000 - of which, even the UN says - the vast majority are Hamas fighters.

So how many did the Israelis kill in their fighting with Hamas?

[bush_cheney2004]

this is why we've created rules and moral standards for ourselves. this is why we have the geneva convention and rules of war. this is why we have human rights. you break these rules or try to justify breaking these rules, you're supporting unjust behaviour.

And you are projecting a political and moral standard that rests on a sordid base made from some of the world's worst historical behaviours. Further, you are injecting your own personal assessment of what constitutes a "just peace", not for the combatants, but for your own bruised sensibilities.

Make a "just peace" with all of our own PalestIndians first, then I will be impressed with your rhetoric.

Justice sips meekly from a fountain of Power.

[DogOnPorch]

From a military poiny of view, settlements along the Jordanian border make a lot of sense. The West Bank has been an avenue of attack for Arab armies in the past. As has Gaza...Sinai...The Golan...

Israel's very tiny. Like, Delaware tiny. An armored thrust from the Syrians, for example, has to be blunted right on the border...not downtown Haifa.

While there exists a peace-treaty with Jordan, I suppose some elements in Israel are not so sure that the treaty is forever and ever... The current King could be whacked by Arab terrorists at any moment, being the theory. Like they did in the past...

------------------------------------------------------

I reject your reality and substitute it with my own.

---Adam Savage

[dub]

And you are projecting a political and moral standard that rests on a sordid base made from some of the world's worst historical behaviours. Further, you are injecting your own personal assessment of what constitutes a "just peace", not for the combatants, but for your own bruised sensibilities.

Make a "just peace" with all of our own PalestIndians first, then I will be impressed with your rhetoric.

Justice sips meekly from a fountain of Power.

looks like you have it all justified in your head. i'm sure the nazis, milosovic, saddam and osama use the same argument.

we've set rules. you want to shit on them and justify shitting on them, that's your decision.

Edited February 19, 2009 by dub

[dub]

From a military poiny of view, settlements along the Jordanian border make a lot of sense. The West Bank has been an avenue of attack for Arab armies in the past. As has Gaza...Sinai...The Golan...

Israel's very tiny. Like, Delaware tiny. An armored thrust from the Syrians, for example, has to be blunted right on the border...not downtown Haifa.

While there exists a peace-treaty with Jordan, I suppose some elements in Israel are not so sure that the treaty is forever and ever... The current King could be whacked by Arab terrorists at any moment, being the theory. Like they did in the past...

that's right dogonporch, israel is the victim here.

self defense is legitimate, but how legitimate it is if i get inside someone's house and i self defense against the owner who tries to punch me because i wont let him pass through the door to get into his garage? even if we know that the house owner is a jerk or not?

Edited February 19, 2009 by dub

[DogOnPorch]

that's right dogonporch, israel is the victim here.

self defense is legitimate, but how legitimate it is if i get inside someone's house and i self defense against the owner who tries to punch me because i wont let him pass through the door to get into his garage? even if we know that the house owner is a jerk or not?

WTF are you going on about now?

There were numerous Arab Israeli Wars. I'm sure there will be a few more in my lifetime.

----------------------------------------------------------

Try to remember the kind of September October War

When life was slow and oh, so mellow.

[dub]

WTF are you going on about now?

There were numerous Arab Israeli Wars. I'm sure there will be a few more in my lifetime.

i'm curious, wtf you are going on about?

israel is building more illegal settlements. one of the biggest reasons the occupied people are pissy about israel. you don't seem to have a problem with the settlements and in fact try to justify them.

[DogOnPorch]

i'm curious, wtf you are going on about?

israel is building more illegal settlements. one of the biggest reasons the occupied people are pissy about israel. you don't seem to have a problem with the settlements and in fact try to justify them.

The point is that some elements in Israel don't care if the Palestinian Arabs get 'pissy'. Some of those settlements in question were built at a time when a state of war existed with Jordan...as it still does with Syria. Just because YOU can't remember 1967 and 1973, doesn't mean the Israelis don't.

---------------------------------------------------

Would you allow a people to come from somewhere else and occupy a part of the United States, and set up an independent state, and, after 50 years, you would not be able to stay on this land?

---Hassan Nasrallah

Sounds like south L.A.

---DogOnPorch

[JB Globe]

when was the last time there was a suicide attack inside israel?

Constant rocket attacks then.

Neither this nor settlement building help the situation - they're only useful to a select group on either side of the conflict who use them for their own political gain (Hamas on one side, Jewish Settlers and far-right groups on the other).

[JB Globe]

The Syrian government killed 50,000 people in the city of Hamas when some of them decided they wanted a different form of government.

The Iranians forced thousands and tens of thousands of untrained teenagers to run out into the fields at Iraqi fortifications in their war, simply to absorb the cannon and machinegun fire.

Something like a quarter million people have been butchered in Darfur by allies of the Sudanese government.

And in Gaza? Something less than 1000 - of which, even the UN says - the vast majority are Hamas fighters.

So how many did the Israelis kill in their fighting with Hamas?

I don't think anyone here is denying that worse war crimes have happened elsewhere in the world.

However I think you're making a big mistake to say that we should only care about war crimes only when they reach some sort large level of destruction. The whole concept of peace-building after all revolves around intervening in situations before they spiral out of control.

Also consider that in none of the examples you mentioned was the US giving any of the perpetrators billions a year in military and economic aid. Nor was the Canadian government giving the perps tacit support in their operations. As well none of the perps in the other examples could be classified as a "democracy committed to upholding international law and human rights" yet people consistantly ascribe this label to Israel.

And, as I've said before, the only thing worse than a military strike that uses collective punishment on civilians in an effort to attain an objective is a military strike that uses collective punishment on civilians in order to score political points in an upcoming election.

Anyone who believes that Israeli actions in Gaza were about self-defense are fooling themselves as badly as those who think Hamas' actions have anything to do with self-defense.

[Oleg Bach]

A generation and a half conditined in paranoia, fear, hate and hyper vigilence - breeds but one thing...trouble! - You become what you detest if you hate long enough - you reform into the negative from the positive - Israel is a non-issue at this point - and a waste of valuable real estate in the mind. Like a stumbling arrogant child eventually you have to let go and let the kid figure it out for themselves. You can not protect your proverbial offspring for ever - and Israel is the offspring ----- we are the patron fathers....I wish them the best but I as a father was not brought into the world to die for my children or have them drive me to an early grave - I come first.

[Argus]

I don't think anyone here is denying that worse war crimes have happened elsewhere in the world.

And continue to happen, without many people seeming to care much about them.

However I think you're making a big mistake to say that we should only care about war crimes only when they reach some sort large level of destruction. The whole concept of peace-building after all revolves around intervening in situations before they spiral out of control.

Oh I wasn't suggesting people shouldn't care about them until they reached epic proprtions. I was suggesting people should care about them even when they don't involve Jews.

How many threads on the slaughter in Darfur are there compared to Israeli threads? There are deos at the Israeli embassy almost daily. No one protests at the Sudanese embassy except the occasional expatriate group.

[Oleg Bach]

And continue to happen, without many people seeming to care much about them.

Oh I wasn't suggesting people shouldn't care about them until they reached epic proprtions. I was suggesting people should care about them even when they don't involve Jews.

How many threads on the slaughter in Darfur are there compared to Israeli threads? There are deos at the Israeli embassy almost daily. No one protests at the Sudanese embassy except the occasional expatriate group.

Look at that aweful term presented to the world..."Ethnic CLEANSING" - It plays on the mind in such a manner that one might assume that something dirty has to be cleaned..so we are all for that - no one wants to use the word genocide untill the cleansing is all done...then we scratch our heads and wonder what the hell happened..Hitlers final solution was a cleaning operation....By the time the average person figured out what was happening - that actual human beings were being cleaned to god damned death - IT WAS TO LATE... over six million good people dead - 20 million slavics dead - 6 million Ukrainians dead! - I guess no one cares untll they say - 10 million Canadians dead - by then most of us wil be gone - and it will not matter ...Your choice stop it now or be next - that's how it works --- in time.

[bush_cheney2004]

looks like you have it all justified in your head. i'm sure the nazis, milosovic, saddam and osama use the same argument.

we've set rules. you want to shit on them and justify shitting on them, that's your decision.

Just as I thought...you want to keep the spoils while judging others who only wish to do the same....that's your decision.

Invoking "Nazis" means you have already lost the argument.

[bush_cheney2004]

....How many threads on the slaughter in Darfur are there compared to Israeli threads? There are deos at the Israeli embassy almost daily. No one protests at the Sudanese embassy except the occasional expatriate group.

Bingo! No fun in that.....they can't play their Jew baiting game.