eyeball Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Ratray's life of crime He was raised in more than 24 foster homes and was physically and sexually abused. Yep, if I've heard this once I've heard it at least a thousand times. It seems when our governments aren't allowing ridiculous prohibition laws to create the perfect economic incentives for criminals they're doing next to nothing to prevent the cultivation of criminals themselves. Don't forget the fact the state also sells the booze that causes fetal alcohol syndrome which affects some 50% of our prison population. No doubt this Rattray is a real charmer and is obviously a threat that needs to be treated immediately but to ignore the past extenuating circumstances that helped produce this, or worse to pretend none exist, is a crime in itself. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted February 22, 2009 Report Posted February 22, 2009 Yep, if I've heard this once I've heard it at least a thousand times.It seems when our governments aren't allowing ridiculous prohibition laws to create the perfect economic incentives for criminals they're doing next to nothing to prevent the cultivation of criminals themselves. Don't forget the fact the state also sells the booze that causes fetal alcohol syndrome which affects some 50% of our prison population. No doubt this Rattray is a real charmer and is obviously a threat that needs to be treated immediately but to ignore the past extenuating circumstances that helped produce this, or worse to pretend none exist, is a crime in itself. No child should have to grow up being bounced from foster home to foster home. Maybe it's time to bring back a few orphanges to give some stability to children who otherwise would have none. But that, of course, is another topic. It was obvious that Rattray was getting involved in worse and worse crimes every year, but each crime was simply assessed on its own and punished accordingly. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 No child should have to grow up being bounced from foster home to foster home. Maybe it's time to bring back a few orphanges to give some stability to children who otherwise would have none. But that, of course, is another topic.It was obvious that Rattray was getting involved in worse and worse crimes every year, but each crime was simply assessed on its own and punished accordingly. Are there no work houses? Toronto has 16 thousand children in "care" of varied childrens aid societies...each kid keeps at least 5 well meaning professionals employed - it's a massive industry that needs to be fed...Most think that there may be a thousand homeless on the streets of Toronto. This is because we think of them as the visable pan handlers and drunken grate sleepers...There are reliable stats that there are 60 thousand homeless withing the greater GTA. How many of these men and woman were once fathers and heads of families that got driven into the ground by a combination of lawyers - social workers and feminist eccentric judges - small wonder the youth from poor families are running amuck with out real car - just false care and usery in the form of state wardship. Quote
tango Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Are there no work houses? Toronto has 16 thousand children in "care" of varied childrens aid societies...each kid keeps at least 5 well meaning professionals employed - it's a massive industry that needs to be fed...Most think that there may be a thousand homeless on the streets of Toronto. This is because we think of them as the visable pan handlers and drunken grate sleepers...There are reliable stats that there are 60 thousand homeless withing the greater GTA. How many of these men and woman were once fathers and heads of families that got driven into the ground by a combination of lawyers - social workers and feminist eccentric judges - small wonder the youth from poor families are running amuck with out real car - just false care and usery in the form of state wardship. Some interesting stuff in your post, but to this part I just have to go ... Hunh?? driven into the ground by a combination of lawyers - social workers and feminist eccentric judges ??? Quote My Canada includes rights of Indigenous Peoples. Love it or leave it, eh! Peace.
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Some interesting stuff in your post, but to this part I just have to go ... Hunh??driven into the ground by a combination of lawyers - social workers and feminist eccentric judges ??? You are right about that. These professionals are just doing their jobs and just taking orders I suppose. From what I observed these people are really not that interested in the preservation of the family - and you hear them saying "I must err on the side of caution on behalf of the child or young youth. What bothered me when I research a particular foster home facility is that they were industrial in scope and had their head quarters in America...I saw them snatch up children and stick them a not for profit - very profitable foster home - at 2ooo dollars a pop per kid - up to 8 per unit...that is 16000 a month. What I learned recently is that The Jewish Family Service - in the same building as the Canadian Jewish Congress - are snatching up black children and the children of Muslims - something is amiss there.. Whether it be a secular orgainzation - or Catholic or Jewish - each is under a bond to do specific thing with in specific communities -- now they are stretching out their tentacles and going for the gusto. Quote
eyeball Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) No child should have to grow up being bounced from foster home to foster home. Maybe it's time to bring back a few orphanges to give some stability to children who otherwise would have none. But that, of course, is another topic. I'm not surprised in the least to hear you suggest we look backwards in time for some ideal system that deals with kids. Were you thinking of something along the lines of our old fashioned residential schools perhaps or did you have something more Dickensian in mind? It was obvious that Rattray was getting involved in worse and worse crimes every year, but each crime was simply assessed on its own and punished accordingly. Can you see the pattern here yet? This poor bastard should have been awarded millions of dollars in compensation before he even came close to being an adult, perhaps then he could have paid to get the treatment he deserved instead of the treatment he got. The irony of you using such an example as Rattray to rationalize making our youth justice system even more vindictive is a phenomenon in itself. Please tell me you don't work for one of the bureaucracies that's been shuffling Rattray around his entire life. Edited February 23, 2009 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Alta4ever Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 I'm not surprised in the least to hear you suggest we look backwards in time for some ideal system that deals with kids. Were you thinking of something along the lines of our old fashioned residential schools perhaps or did you have something more Dickensian in mind? Can you see the pattern here yet? This poor bastard should have been awarded millions of dollars in compensation before he even came close to being an adult, perhaps then he could have paid to get the treatment he deserved instead of the treatment he got. The irony of you using such an example as Rattray to rationalize making our youth justice system even more vindictive is a phenomenon in itself. Please tell me you don't work for one of the bureaucracies that's been shuffling Rattray around his entire life. Well why didn't you just provide all these troubled youth a home instead of expecting the government to deal with it. Your part of society if you are really concerned you do it, make the difference for some of these youth. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
eyeball Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) Well why didn't you just provide all these troubled youth a home instead of expecting the government to deal with it. Its funny you should mention that, I've been adjusting to a home invasion of boomerangs and their girl/boy friends recently. Must be the economic times I guess. I see a whole lot more youth injustice coming on the horizon. You should be thankful at least some kids out there know their old doors will always be open. That said, we're abandoning the family home to this gang and have posted warnings around the neighbourhood. My wife is fleeing for the cabin out in the back forty and I can't get out fishing fast enough. Edited February 23, 2009 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Its funny you should mention that, I've been adjusting to a home invasion of boomerangs and their girl/boy friends recently. Must be the economic times I guess. I see a whole lot more youth injustice coming on the horizon. You should be thankful at least some kids out there know their old doors will always be open. That said, we're abandoning the family home to this gang and have posted warnings around the neighbourhood. My wife is fleeing for the cabin out in the back forty and I can't get out fishing fast enough. No matter what - when I was a wayward adventuring youth - the family home was always open to me on return. I could go and hunker down - eat and hydrate..then take the boat out and do some fishing out back - I was lucky - I had a base - and never did I hear that stupid controlling statement "not under my roof" - My mother was a mother...and loyal to her children - My father stuck it out and had honour while he lived. I had a base - I had santuary. To days way ward youth have no real home - do you call a closet in some project a home - a place that is so transient in nature that all it amounts to is a cell with people passing though. As with my children - if they behave badly - it passes...when they were young no matter what - the door to safety was alway left open. Here is the crux of the problem. Because we are enveloped in a comsumer society and males (fathers) only real purpose is to generate income so mindless consumtion can take place to pacify family members - fatherhood has become very unattractive and slave like. The fathers original job in the natural world was to be a protector - the woman watered the garden and fed the family...now fathers are "providers"...if they attempt to take on the role of protector the stupid modernist woman..is conditioned to twart her husbands authority with the assistance of the state - so the children are not protected or guided and mother of the lower economic class are usually crimminally minded..great set up - so stop wondering why we have problems with youth violence and crimminality. If a kid in the projects is dealing dope and packing a pistol - and he drops a thousand dollars on the kitchen table - well that is a good thing and mamma is pleased.... Quote
Argus Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) I'm not surprised in the least to hear you suggest we look backwards in time for some ideal system that deals with kids. Were you thinking of something along the lines of our old fashioned residential schools perhaps or did you have something more Dickensian in mind? Was there some reason you felt orphanages didn't work? Did anyone produce statistics to show the graduates came out far more inclined towards violence and crime than normal children (such statistics have certainly been produced with regard to foster home care). Whatever the drawbacks of the system you probably are thinking about, you should consider that they were a product of their time. Remember that rather brute corporal punishment was a matter of course even for the cherished children of the well-off. The culture has moved on from there, just as it has moved on from the time when children didn't dare report abuse and no one ever suspected any. There is no reason to suspect permanent boarding schools would not treat children with care, and give them the kind of security they are clearly not getting when being bounced from one uncaring foster family to another. I'll grant you it's not the ideal, but then, 24 foster homes is rather far from ideal, too. The irony of you using such an example as Rattray to rationalize making our youth justice system even more vindictive is a phenomenon in itself You are confusing two different questions. One is how best to look after youth and raise them. The other is what to do after they go bad. You can certainly look back on his youth and say tha 24 foster homes was far from ideal. On the other hand, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Was he bounced from home to home because that's the norm, or because he was considered uncontrollable by each of the foster parents involved? But again, how he became the way he was is a question for the youth protection people. The indisputable fact is that he was not sternly disciplined by the criminal justice system when he was seen early on, and continued to offend, commuting more and more serious crimes. Edited February 23, 2009 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 Was there some reason you felt orphanages didn't work? Did anyone produce statistics to show the graduates came out far more inclined towards violence and crime than normal children (such statistics have certainly been produced with regard to foster home care). Whatever the drawbacks of the system you probably are thinking about, you should consider that they were a product of their time. My doubt is based on the times right now. I can't help but look at the stupidity that still seems to be an endemic feature in much of what the government does, like persistently reacting to unfounded calls for increasingly tougher measures every time some graphic story or spike of violence occurs. Remember that rather brute corporal punishment was a matter of course even for the cherished children of the well-off. The culture has moved on from there, just as it has moved on from the time when children didn't dare report abuse and no one ever suspected any. From my perspective our culture risks losing whatever ground its gained by succumbing to unreasoning fear and relying on using more and more authority to address it. As for brutality I've seen little to suggest that the state has done anything to ensure prisons aren't violent places where physical and sexual abuse are common and much that suggests people think this should remain a scary deterring feature of our justice systems. You are confusing two different questions. One is how best to look after youth and raise them. The other is what to do after they go bad. No, you're avoiding why I'm criticizing your use of Rattray as a galvanizing reason to do something about our youth justice system and why we should base our policies on people's outraged calls for more vindictivness in them. I have a pretty good idea what you have in mind for people when they go bad regardless of why they likely did. I'd rather do what Jesus would do thanks. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Oleg Bach Posted February 23, 2009 Report Posted February 23, 2009 As a rural kid growing up on the meadows and lakes of the Oak Ridge Moraine - we would go off into the wild for a days at a time - with no adult supervision to speak of. If this took place today the social workers would have snatched me and humilitated my parents for failure to protect and properly supervise. There is a sick monderity with the urbanite spawns that go to community college and get a socialist social working degree...These types do not understand culture... I have seen them use that fact that a fire place with out a spark screen was reason enough to snatch up kids and send them to an industrial foster facilty - These dweebs urban dweebs have never seen a fire in all their lives... I remember testifying on my younger brothers behalf --- we have had fire in our family for a thousand years and not once has a child tumbled in...They believe that the red neck rural ontario culture is inferiour and they are next to being cave men and woman....far to may children are seperated from their parents because of some silly Trotskite thinking combined with urban middle class arrogance. Now I reside on a gentrified urban street - I have gotten to know some of the original local inhabitants...It is shocking that so many of them grew up in foster homes - one young fine man - was shifted around to at least 14 different ones - The men in their late twenties and early thirties like to refere to me as their father in jest - They after all this time still need protection and guidance - the state is not capable of protecting or guiding youth - they for the most part abuse children under the guise of protection - I never saw evidence of actual protection - just usery of children by bureacrats. Once these kid turn 18 - few will do well...Fatherhood should be supported not thwarted in order for governmental parasites to thrive. Quote
Argus Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 My doubt is based on the times right now. I can't help but look at the stupidity that still seems to be an endemic feature in much of what the government does, like persistently reacting to unfounded calls for increasingly tougher measures every time some graphic story or spike of violence occurs. There wouldn't be calls for increasingly tougher measures if the government would simply employ proper and just responses to those who engage in brutality towards others. It is the violence which drives the calls for a generally tougher law enforcement environment. There are some exceedingly violent and callous young people out there (old ones too), and responses to them have to be based both on fundamental justice, and protection of the public. They're not, and that's what ticks people off. As for brutality I've seen little to suggest that the state has done anything to ensure prisons aren't violent places where physical and sexual abuse are common and much that suggests people think this should remain a scary deterring feature of our justice systems. I've given some thought in the past on how to deal with prison violence. Unfortunately, a considerable problem is the lack of deterrence in available punishments. If you're a cold-hearted scumbag in prison for the next forty years, there just isn't a lot that we can do with you if you cut someone's throat. Given the bizarre right of parole, in which Joe Prisoner can earn a day off for good behaviour on Monday, Tuesday - cut someone's throat on Wednesday - and then earn more days off for good behavior on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday - well, let's just say there aren't a lot of options without toughening laws. No, you're avoiding why I'm criticizing your use of Rattray as a galvanizing reason to do something about our youth justice system and why we should base our policies on people's outraged calls for more vindictivness in them. I think you're avoiding thinking about why there are outraged calls, and what it would take to make those calls largely go away. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Oleg Bach Posted February 24, 2009 Report Posted February 24, 2009 Make your rounds and round up a whole bunch of good people and convict them - send them to jail to dilute the evil that exists there --- well payed of course - no I am not looking for a governmental job. You two are quite scarey - the terms you use sound like those used by angry prisoners - maybe it is you that is doing time - bitter? Quote
myata Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Posted May 22, 2009 I'm glad to see a real movement on this important issue: NB bill: parents to pay for children's crimes. Bravo, NB! Not pointless "get tough" sentences when kids are already deep into trouble; something real, however small, to show them that crime is a no-no (show, not tell!) when they're only starting to play with the idea. It should be taken up by all provinces. As well as the general principle: more meaningful and clear sanctions, including steep material responsibility, for the crime, either alternative, or coincidental to jail. And not forgetting to deal with the root causes, goes without saying. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Oleg Bach Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 Should work perfectly - I can see it now - some divorced or unmarried black mother sending along her welfare cheque to the victims family - after her dear dope dealing son comes out of the building with a gun blazing in each hand shooting a 5 year old though the lung..yep - these are not the days of you or I breaking a window in someones garden shed with a sling shot - and our parents paying for it..times have changed. Quote
myata Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Posted May 22, 2009 What a stereotypical bs. If a kid of 8-10-12, instead (or on top) of principal talk will get a serious lecture from daddy/mommy, because they had to shell out a few bucks for that broken window / stolen bike, etc., at least it would leave a mark in their brain and memory. And if the buck comes from welfare check, so be it. It's not like getting on welare relieves one of all responsibilities, no. Another point that perhaps should be made a bit clearer, to some. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
eyeball Posted May 22, 2009 Report Posted May 22, 2009 I'm glad to see a real movement on this important issue: NB bill: parents to pay for children's crimes. Bravo, NB!Not pointless "get tough" sentences when kids are already deep into trouble; something real, however small, to show them that crime is a no-no (show, not tell!) when they're only starting to play with the idea. It should be taken up by all provinces. As well as the general principle: more meaningful and clear sanctions, including steep material responsibility, for the crime, either alternative, or coincidental to jail. And not forgetting to deal with the root causes, goes without saying. This general principle should pave the way for cracking down on and getting tough with and holding accountable the people and institutions that are responsible for the high incidence of fetal alcohol poisoning in society, especially given the strong association between FASD and crime. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
myata Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Posted May 22, 2009 That too. Can be an interesting point for discussion. We disallow smoking in a car with kids, what about conceiving a child while heavily drunk? Or, even more importantly than sanctions, providing meanigful early intervention to people with problems (alcoholism, addiction) and their children? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Argus Posted May 23, 2009 Report Posted May 23, 2009 I think we need to create new communities where poverty isn't so concentrated, and create programs that focus on recreating a positive environment for kids who have no good role models. There are already charities and other organizations that do this, so let's fund them to do more of it. Uhhhh huhhhhhh. It's a well known fact that young men rape young women because they don't have enough money. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted May 23, 2009 Report Posted May 23, 2009 Instead of warehousing, how about hard labour, as they use in the UK. You don't sit around a prison cell all day, or watch TV. You break rocks and dig ditches. I'd not be adverse to corporal punishment, either. It's probably as much of a deterrent as short prison sentences and a hell of a lot cheaper. Instead of fining the little SOBs mother, who might or might not have had any way of stopping him from trashing a house or stealing a car, bend him over and cane him so he can't sit down for a month. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
myata Posted May 25, 2009 Author Report Posted May 25, 2009 Of course, it's a no brainer to deduce that children learn by example, and violence against them increases possibility of them turning violent in the future, to a significant degree. Cash sanction has a number of great advantages: it's very clear to everybody, parents and children; it gives delinquent parents greater incentive to get involved with their children; it sends clear, unmistakable, and hard to ignore signal to change behaviour (where other alternatives may be ineffective). Overall, the sanction doesn't even have to be hard (in the early stages; I'd agree with super heavy fines of tens of grands, for serious crimes such as gun possession or drug trafficking - again, as alternative, or in conjunction with jail), the most important thing is that it's there and it's real, not some pointless lecture kids learned to filter out years back. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
bjre Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 Of course, it's a no brainer to deduce that children learn by example, and violence against them increases possibility of them turning violent in the future, to a significant degree.... Do you have any statistics to support that? I think the violence on TV / movie / x-box can affect them more. Quote "The more laws, the less freedom" -- bjre "There are so many laws that nearly everybody breaks some, even when you just stay at home do nothing, the only question left is how thugs can use laws to attack you" -- bjre "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny." -- Thomas Jefferson
Argus Posted May 25, 2009 Report Posted May 25, 2009 Of course, it's a no brainer to deduce that children learn by example, and violence against them increases possibility of them turning violent in the future, to a significant degree. I wonder about this. The expression "Spare the rod, spoil the child" was commonplace for quite some years. over the last few decades it has fallen well out of favour. Many parents no longer use corporal punishment at all - ever, while others use it far more restrictively than was once the case. And has this led to less violent, less aggressive kids? Far from it. Youths nowadays are far more violent, far more aggressive, far less respectful towards each other and adults than was ever the case before. During the "bad old days" when children were routinely thrashed for wrong doings, there was very little violence in schools. There were schoolyard fights but the results were little more than bruises and hurt feelings. Nowadays its commonplace for kids to gang up on other kids, commonplace for them to kick them while they're down, to kick them in the face and head and groin, etc. Swarming is now part of our culture. Sooooo, just exactly what has this more tender, less violent discipline accomplished again? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.