8 states delare sovereignty, and more to follow?

[kittengirl]

An extensive search of the net reveals 8 states are declaring sovereingty with speculation that more states are going to follow suit, not too be confused with seceding, and not to be covered by main-stream media. Curious of what peoples opinion of this...

[M.Dancer]

The reason it hasn't been covered much is that it isn't yet news. These are bills before the state houses that haven't been passed and are unlikely to pass.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/20...ulture-watch-5/

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE...mp;pageId=88218

[kittengirl]

The reason it hasn't been covered much is that it isn't yet news. These are bills before the state houses that haven't been passed and are unlikely to pass.

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/20...ulture-watch-5/

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE...mp;pageId=88218

unlikely to pass...why?...shouldn't the voice of america be finally be listened too?...how long to people take it up the arse before they have had enough?

[GostHacked]

unlikely to pass...why?...shouldn't the voice of america be finally be listened too?...how long to people take it up the arse before they have had enough?

Some are so used to it, they feel neglected if they are not getting plowed in the rosebud.

M. Dancer

And why should the bill only be newsworthy it if is passed? If you don't support a bill, are you going to make a stink about it AFTER it is passed and made into law?? Kind of late then is it not? Or will that give them a chance to be even more beurocratic to devise another bill to counter the bill they just passed?? WTF is this a 'make government 'work' work'??

Waste of time, money, manpower and intellect.

[M.Dancer]

unlikely to pass...why?...shouldn't the voice of america be finally be listened too?...how long to people take it up the arse before they have had enough?

I highly doubt that the fringe represent the voice of America.

[kittengirl]

Some are so used to it, they feel neglected if they are not getting plowed in the rosebud.

M. Dancer

And why should the bill only be newsworthy it if is passed? If you don't support a bill, are you going to make a stink about it AFTER it is passed and made into law?? Kind of late then is it not? Or will that give them a chance to be even more beurocratic to devise another bill to counter the bill they just passed?? WTF is this a 'make government 'work' work'??

Waste of time, money, manpower and intellect.

it should be newsworthy now, so people can support it...there are protests all over the world but america seems to be content with all the unjust

[M.Dancer]

M. Dancer

And why should the bill only be newsworthy it if is passed?

Given that at anyone one time there are thousands of bills before the state legilsatures, why should these bill get any special attention?

Because of its ultra conservative leanings?

[kittengirl]

Given that at anyone one time there are thousands of bills before the state legilsatures, why should these bill get any special attention?

Because of its ultra conservative leanings?

they should get attention. period.

[M.Dancer]

they should get attention. period.

Why?

There are currently 50 bills before the Ohio state senate and legislature.

Why is some nebulous declaration about abiding to the principles of Jeffersonian Democracy more worthy of attentions than:

To provide for the distribution of moneys received by the state from the federal American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 by making appropriations and to declare an emergency.

http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bills.cfm?ID=128_SB_2

[kittengirl]

Why?

There are currently 50 bills before the Ohio state senate and legislature.

Why is some nebulous declaration about abiding to the principles of Jeffersonian Democracy more worthy of attentions than:

http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bills.cfm?ID=128_SB_2

[/quote

because democracy is suppost to be a worthy topic considering and your link didn't bring any bill up, it says,bill cannot be found

[guyser]

Why?

I read a little about this the other day...so no I havent clicked any of these links.

Anyhow, the states are fed up w being overrun by the feds and want to strike back.

That 28 other states are about to do so, or considering it, I would think it newsworthy, dont you?

[M.Dancer]

because democracy is suppost to be a worthy topic considering and your link didn't bring any bill up, it says,bill cannot be found

Works for me...

Here are all the bills before the Ohio Legislature

http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bill_se...amp;SESSION=128

[M.Dancer]

I read a little about this the other day...so no I havent clicked any of these links.

Anyhow, the states are fed up w being overrun by the feds and want to strike back.

That 28 other states are about to do so, or considering it, I would think it newsworthy, dont you?

Depends whether it has the backing of the majority of reps. I don't think so..

[Michael Hardner]

it should be newsworthy now, so people can support it

If Charles Foster Kane wanted it to be on the front pages of every paper, he might drum up some support for this stuff, but this is just fringe material. No one cares, nor should they.

[August1991]

An extensive search of the net reveals 8 states are declaring sovereingty with speculation...

There is a difference between "doing something" and "having done something". In fact, no state has declared "sovereignty", whatever that means.

Ronald Reagan talked about a "New Federalism" that recognized the primacy of individual states over the federal government but it is ultimately the federal Supreme Court that interprets the US Constitution and the separation of jurisdiction.

Arguably, the greatest recent intrusion of federal government powers into state affairs was the 1964 Civil Rights Act. I'm not certain that anyone wants to revist that issue.

----

The US is a functioning federal state with over 300 million people. If even one tenth of one percent of these Americans are crazy, that still means that there are 300,000 crazy Americans. If all of these crazy people have access to the Internet, one might get the wrong impression about America.

I note that Kittengirl has just started to post here, on this issue alone.

[kittengirl]

If Charles Foster Kane wanted it to be on the front pages of every paper, he might drum up some support for this stuff, but this is just fringe material. No one cares, nor should they.

why do you think no one cares and shouldn't care, i have seen a lot of support for this

[Michael Hardner]

What is a lot of support ? 1000 people is a lot of people but a small percentage ?

[kittengirl]

What is a lot of support ? 1000 people is a lot of people but a small percentage ?

well considering it isn't mainstream, then 1000's is a lot

can you answer why you don't think anyone should care please?

[Michael Hardner]

It's hard to tell from your original post, which basically says 'this is happening'. Why don't you start by telling us why this is a good thing in your opinion.

Most of these ideas, I find, sound good to people who are frustrated mainly because they don't understand the way the system works. Ron Paul, and the like, love preying on those types with easy answers....

[M.Dancer]

well considering it isn't mainstream, then 1000's is a lot

can you answer why you don't think anyone should care please?

Because it is noting more than grandstanding by a couple of handfuls of fringe reps looking a media payday....the bills won't pass and if nthey did they would be only decorative.

For 99% of americans, the price of milk is a greater concern...and should be.

[M.Dancer]

All you need to know about the importance of this issue is WorldNUt Daily is covering it...

[kimmy]

I think Dancer's objection is not so much that the issue is being put forth for discussion, but rather the tone.

"8 States Declare Sovereignty!" makes it sound like this is the buildup to a new American Civil War, at least to Canadian ears who associate the word "sovereignty" with Quebec's on again, off-again quest for independence.

In fact, look under the hood a little, and it seems to be more along the lines of the federal vs provincial jurisdiction spats that break out every 3 months between Ottawa and Quebec/Alberta.

These state lawmakers are not attempting to secede from the United States. They are alleging that elements of the stimulus plan are an intrusion of federal government into areas of state jurisdiction and are taking action to assert their authority (ie, sovereignty) over areas given to states under the US Constitution.

This story might sound like big news if you think "sovereignty" means independence, but becomes pretty boring once one reads enough to be clear on what the states are actually pressing for.

-k

[WIP]

These state lawmakers are not attempting to secede from the United States. They are alleging that elements of the stimulus plan are an intrusion of federal government into areas of state jurisdiction and are taking action to assert their authority (ie, sovereignty) over areas given to states under the US Constitution.

-k

And by any chance did you happen to notice the list of states that the linked article from Wingnutdaily talks to reps from Oklahoma and Arizona, who identify their states reasons for state sovereignty resolutions as the proposed stimulus package from the the new president. If you check some of the states on that list -- starting with Hawaii, you'll notice that their reasons for states rights have nothing to do with Arizona and Oklahoma, since the Hawaii proposal was tabled in August of last year, when the Bush Administration was still hiding the impending economic disaster.

What makes me sick about these conservatives bellyaching about liiiberrralllls in Washington spending their hard earned tax dollars is that the conservative, Republican dominated states are the biggest pigs at the trough gobbling up federal dollars! On this handy chart of "Red State Socialism" you'll notice that most Democrat states pay more to the Federal government than they get back in benefits; but what about those Republican states: take a look at how many red states are in the column of states which get more than they give! These greedy selfish bastards should be cut off from all the federal goodies just because of their greed and hypocrisy alone!

And before I forget, the guys bitching about the stimulus package representing Arizona and Oklahoma: according to the chart, Arizona gets $1.19 in benefits for every federal tax dollar they pay, and Oklahoma gets $1.36! Obama should get the stimulus package passed and cut off these states from receiving grants since they are campaigning so hard against it!

[kimmy]

And by any chance did you happen to notice the list of states that the linked article from Wingnutdaily talks to reps from Oklahoma and Arizona, who identify their states reasons for state sovereignty resolutions as the proposed stimulus package from the the new president. If you check some of the states on that list -- starting with Hawaii, you'll notice that their reasons for states rights have nothing to do with Arizona and Oklahoma, since the Hawaii proposal was tabled in August of last year, when the Bush Administration was still hiding the impending economic disaster.

I didn't read it in that detail, and don't care to. The main point I was making is that this is a "states rights" issue, not some attempt by states to secede from the union. Which for me makes it a definite "don't need to know more" issue.

And before I forget, the guys bitching about the stimulus package representing Arizona and Oklahoma: according to the chart, Arizona gets $1.19 in benefits for every federal tax dollar they pay, and Oklahoma gets $1.36! Obama should get the stimulus package passed and cut off these states from receiving grants since they are campaigning so hard against it!

That doesn't follow.

I think my auto insurance plan is a complete rip-off, but am compelled to pay into it, and having been thusly compelled I will absolutely make a claim against it should I have legitimate cause to do so. My objections to the insurance program might have some bearing if any sort of opt-out were available to me, but there is none. Perhaps objections like mine were considered at the time the policy was formulated, or perhaps not, but either way I am part of the program regardless of whether I like it or not, and having been compelled to participate I will receive the alleged benefits as well as pay the costs of membership. I have objections, I have ideas that the system could be made better, should voicing these issues disqualify me from benefits that I have paid into?

If the administration wants to restrict the benefits of the stimulus package to states who support the plan, then the corollary is that there should be a meaningful opt-out for states who do not wish to support the plan. If there is no way to feasibly provide an opt-out, then the fair thing would be to consider reasonable objections, and proceed in the manner most consistent with the goals of the plan while respecting the constitution's division of state and federal jurisdiction and any other rules that might be tempting to break along the way (cough*NAFTA*cough).

-k

Edited February 12, 2009 by kimmy

[WIP]

If the administration wants to restrict the benefits of the stimulus package to states who support the plan, then the corollary is that there should be a meaningful opt-out for states who do not wish to support the plan. If there is no way to feasibly provide an opt-out, then the fair thing would be to consider reasonable objections, and proceed in the manner most consistent with the goals of the plan while respecting the constitution's division of state and federal jurisdiction and any other rules that might be tempting to break along the way (cough*NAFTA*cough).

-k

And if you read the propaganda from rightwing spin machines, you would never know that they take more from the federal government than what they put back in taxes! These are the same people who are always bitching about too much government, their taxes being too high and supporting freeloading socialists.....and yet they feel they are entitled to the goodies they receive from the federal government.