Some Things Canada Gets Right

Alta4ever · February 9, 2009

I know its not much of a consolation, but in my province, I have seen great improvement in recent years. There are still many problems, but waiting lists for most things are either holding steady or getting shorter.

After I went in tot he insurance industry I saw the product that should have been purchased as it would have at least given us the funds for access to out of country specalists. I can tell you that I now own a large critical illness insurance poliy because of it. I have very little faith in our current system. Just to se a doctor in twon you have to schedual your appointment at the clinic 1-2 weeks in advance, when I had to see a nose and throat specalist it took 3 months. Our system is broken, and it one where we bury the mistakes.

jdobbin · February 9, 2009

No before my mother died of cancer we had tried to seek treatment for her in the US. But the government thought that the access to the waiting list was enough. She went terminal before they had her properly diagnosed, they did very little for her. Had the money been available we could have had her in to see a specailist in the US months before and had a treatment started before it got so severe.

It sounds to me that this was an issue the doctor should have been on top of. Some will put you on a list and not make a greater effort at expediting the process. And yes the process is expedited when people's lives are at stake.

So get bent Dobbin, had she had access and care in a timely fashion things may have turned out different.

I'm sorry for your mother but if you continue to make statements with no facts, I will continue to question your posts.

Kep your smarmy self rightous, arrogant comments to yourself.

Keep your statement of facts without evidence to yourself.

Smallc · February 9, 2009

Our system is broken, and it one where we bury the mistakes.

So what have you done to make it better? Have you written letters and demanded action?

guyser · February 9, 2009

After I went in tot he insurance industry I saw the product that should have been purchased as it would have at least given us the funds for access to out of country specalists. I can tell you that I now own a large critical illness insurance poliy because of it.

Ill assume you are aware of the downfalls of such a policy, not to mention the mere fact that any specialists would not automatically appear, as there would be a wait time.

And the addition that a critical illness policy is only valid for the specified conditions. What happens if one is hit by a bus and cannot work? A disablity policy in most cases is a preferred option.

bush_cheney2004 · February 9, 2009

So what have you done to make it better? Have you written letters and demanded action?

What actually is done? Make comparisons to the US system of course, ignoring the attributes of far better public-private universal systems elsewhere in the world. As long as it's better than the horror story of some poor uninsured bankrupt bastard in the USA...all is well! :lol:

Smallc · February 9, 2009

What actually is done?

Spaces for nurses and doctors are being increased at universities, new hospitals with more beds and more modern technology are being built, when there is a waiting list that is too long developing for a certain procedure, steps are taken (buying more equipment, hiring more relevant staff if possible) to shorten the list. I can only speak to my own province, but in many ways, I see progress being made.

Oleg Bach · February 9, 2009

What actually is done? Make comparisons to the US system of course, ignoring the attributes of far better public-private universal systems elsewhere in the world. As long as it's better than the horror story of some poor uninsured bankrupt bastard in the USA...all is well!

It's not really a case off looking good because all others are dead awhful ugly in comparison. It just a case of the quality of men that operate OUR banking institutions as compared to American ones. Our people are about real power and influence. Your people assume who ever has the largest pile of money is the best boy on the block - dispite the character of the holder of the wealth. I have nothing and I can call a seniour investment banker and he listens...where as if I was south of the boarder -- the attitude would be - he this guy has no money - he MUST be a nobody and a nothing - if he was smart he would be rich. Power is a fleeting thing - and our old wisemen understand it's about the man - his faith his honour and his natural not bought abilities and talents that count. The only fear our bankers had was once there were runs on the American banks - that the disease of fear and panic might spread north to Canada - well - it didn't - because up here we know - money is not real and we do not take it seriously...not the guys on top..they understand and YOU don't understand the finer workings of the human belief system.

Smallc · February 9, 2009

Oh, and almost all (if not all) procedures are performed privately in Canada. Doctors are not even government employees. The funding is public, but the delivery is almost always private not for profit. I wouldn't even have a problem with private for profit delivery...provided it would actually improve things.

Oleg Bach · February 9, 2009

Oh, and almost all (if not all) procedures are performed privately in Canada. Doctors are not even government employees. The funding is public, but the delivery is almost always private not for profit. I wouldn't even have a problem with private for profit delivery...provided it would actually improve things.

Any reasonable person would not have a problem with anything as long as it improves things - unless you are an argumentative idiot.

Alta4ever · February 9, 2009

So what have you done to make it better? Have you written letters and demanded action?

yes I have written for the need of our system to change, I have contacted mlas written letters to the editor, I have sold insurance policies to people that will give choice to seek medical treatment outside of Canada. I have fought this one size fits all system for the last 8 years.

Oleg Bach · February 9, 2009

yes I have written for the need of our system to change, I have contacted mlas written letters to the editor, I have sold insurance policies to people that will give choice to seek medical treatment outside of Canada. I have fought this one size fits all system for the last 8 years.

Hear hear! A person who actually puts up a fight - rare breed! It does not matter if you win - you will still plant seeds of change. Much like my twenty four seven - five year fight to the Supreme Court ....there was no financial gain but I know for a fact that people were changed and forced to think and the weight of embarrassment still sits on them - they will know who you are and will not forget you - better to at least try ...once seeds are planted - you may not see the results in your life time but there will be a positive outcome.... 8 years is a long tour of duty....but their primary defence and reluctance to changed can be summed up as the "wear you out tactic" - They function in a group and can take turns resting where as the great individual hero must have almost super human tenacity and endurance.

waldo · February 9, 2009

yes I have written for the need of our system to change, I have contacted mlas written letters to the editor, I have sold insurance policies to people that will give choice to seek medical treatment outside of Canada. I have fought this one size fits all system for the last 8 years.

one could lobby for additional federal funding and increased provincial efficiencies - within a (our) single tier medical system... or

one could presume towards change in the form of two-tier services under some "misguided" premise that this will actually improve wait times on the public side.

what say ye?

Oleg Bach · February 9, 2009

In a nation where the average person can not get a private family doctor that knows his patient and has a good and useful record on him...I hear from physcians that staff our crumby puplic clinics that they absolutely HATE the government for what it has done to the public and the medical profession. Relationships with your doctor should not be akin to that of a vet and pet. The privacey and the personal warmth that used to exist is almost gone - if you have to toss your doc a few extra bucks to free him from oppression in order to have the old fashioned rapore of yesteryear - so be it!

August1991 · February 9, 2009

What were you trying to prove with that article again? Yeah, some wait times in Canada are still too long. Some provinces are making progress, others are having trouble. That doesn't mean that we should abandon the system that has almost certainly in part contributed to our long life span and quality of life. Canada does get a large percentage of health care right....as much as it pains some of you to admit it.

I think you miss the point, smallc. Any wait time is too long.

We often hear that Canada's health care system is cheaper than in the US since we devote a smaller share of GDP to health. The columnist in the OP even suggests that American automakers prefer to produce in Canada because of "lower" health care costs.

What this argument ignores is that waiting imposes a cost on individual Canadians that appears in no statistical calculation. This cost is like a hidden, non-monetary "tax" that unfortunately no government collects.

For example, about 4 million Canadians (over 10% of the population) do not have a family doctor. If they need care, they must go to an emergency ward or a walk-in clinic and, well, wait. Nodody sees this cost except the person who must wait. We indirectly subsidize our health system by wasting our time.

I objected to the columnist arguing that Canada's health care system was cheaper than America's and yet supposedly Canadians were healthier. Once you take in the hidden costs of waiting, our system is not cheaper.

Does the Newsweek article point out how Harper's 2006 budget opened the door to 40 year, zero down payment mortages in Canada which the chronically incompetent Harper didn't realize was a huge mistake until 2008?
http://www.comer.org/2009/harperleg.htm

The link you provide is a strange concoction of personal opinion and an undated, unlinked G&M article.

Norm, if you want to pin the economic crisis on Stephen Harper, you`ll have to do better. For myself, I have no problem with 40 year mortgages, or first 10 year interest-only mortgages. A sophisticated economy has a variety of financial paper and a variety of terms.

If you return to the Newsweek column in the OP, several points are remarkable: in Canada, mortgage payments are not tax deductible. In addition, peopel cannot walk away from a mortgage without serious damage to their other assets. Third, and curiously, Canadian bank managers seem to have a finer sense of their reputation than American bank managers. (Maybe the US savings & loan debacle explains this. Dunno.)

guyser · February 10, 2009

I think you miss the point, smallc. Any wait time is too long.

Was that the point though?

What this argument ignores is that waiting imposes a cost on individual Canadians that appears in no statistical calculation. This cost is like a hidden, non-monetary "tax" that unfortunately no government collects.
I objected to the columnist arguing that Canada's health care system was cheaper than America's and yet supposedly Canadians were healthier. Once you take in the hidden costs of waiting, our system is not cheaper.

August, the cost of the US wait times was not factored in either. How is it any different?

Oleg Bach · February 10, 2009

In Canada if you don't have money you have to at least convince the clinic doctor that you are somewhat bright - and worth his healing efforts...So the poor and stupid really don't get good personal care - but they do assist in the booming buisness that is big pharma. I had internal bleeding for years and could not recieve any help - Then I accidentally met a very bright doctor ( of African origin) - He tested me for the bacterial anti-bodies to see if my stomach and bowels were infected - and there - suddenly a problem that was left untreated and ignored - was cured - He saved my life...not because of the system but because I ran into a kind and bright real doctor.

bush_cheney2004 · February 10, 2009

....August, the cost of the US wait times was not factored in either. How is it any different?

The US has no mandated metrics for universal access and wait times goals.....Canadian provinces do.

guyser · February 10, 2009

The US has no mandated metrics for universal access and wait times goals.....Canadian provinces do.

But August made a point that was not backed up from either side, thus negating the point.

bush_cheney2004 · February 10, 2009

But August made a point that was not backed up from either side, thus negating the point.

August's point was that there are real costs associated within the CHA mandate....such rationing costs are institutionalized in provincial delivery of health care in one form as so called "wait time"....wait time to see a primary care physician and still more wait time to complete a referral to a specialist.

The US system has excess capacity with rationing based on ability to pay.

Oleg Bach · February 10, 2009

August's point was that there are real costs associated within the CHA mandate....such rationing costs are institutionalized in provincial delivery of health care in one form as so called "wait time"....wait time to see a primary care physician and still more wait time to complete a referral to a specialist.
The US system has excess capacity with rationing based on ability to pay.

Love your system - Doc says you are going to die from cancer - and your abiltiy to pay will save your life - and if you do not have the ablity to pay - Then the doctor indirectly gets the deed to the farm...and then he heals you - and if you have no farm - go die in the corner....It all depends on the person and their ability to communicate effectively - rich or poor if you can not get the respect and affection of the attending doctor you are screwed - I have seen some real rich former judges sit aged in the emerge department sreaming one word over and over again - "abandoned" - so it's not the money - pricks all get the shaft in the end that they gave :rolleyes:

bush_cheney2004 · February 10, 2009

Love your system - Doc says you are going to die from cancer - and your abiltiy to pay will save your life - and if you do not have the ablity to pay -

Probably a Canadian doctor...who escaped from lower paying Commie Care ! :lol:

Oleg Bach · February 10, 2009

Probably a Canadian doctor...who escaped from lower paying Commie Care !

Can't argue with that - those who sit on the boards of all major hospitals did not like the idea that their mothers are put in the hall to wait as if they were poor people....Yep - our system treats all the same..rich and poor - Those that sit on our hospital boards and those that are doctors in our clinics want privatization - just don't tell anyone I said that. So Cheney - she you are just as prickish as every - and I will kick at the prick - with protective foot gear.

bush_cheney2004 · February 10, 2009

....Those that sit on our hospital boards and those that are doctors in our clinics want privatization - just don't tell anyone I said that.....

That's the bottom line 'bro....health care professionals are free to sell their services for top dollar, not capped fees.

When mama took us to the doctor...the sign on the wall said "Payment due when services are rendered".

Mama paid in cash.

Oleg Bach · February 10, 2009

That's the bottom line 'bro....health care professionals are free to sell their services for top dollar, not capped fees.
When mama took us to the doctor...the sign on the wall said "Payment due when services are rendered".

Mama paid in cash.

It's not so much about greed or higher living wage for doctors - Last one I talked to about her position mentioned to me - "I get up in the morning and look in the mirror and remind myself that I am doing this to help people" - This mindset is not an oddity - I have seen a few doctors who are driven by social benevolence, mercy and a sense of purpose - not all are about the money. There was another doctor who dispised the system and she wanted to go on the road with "Doctors without boarders" - most are not as you imagine. The old days were wonderful...when your mamma paid in cash she could always cut a deal - and give what she could..she could negotiate because she had a personal connection with the doctor - walkin clinics and the lack of family physicans has created a commie non-connection between doctor and patient. The second rate doctors are commies - because they are mundane - the gifted ones either go for the big buck or the big ideal - but not both.

bush_cheney2004 · February 10, 2009

The old days were wonderful...when your mamma paid in cash she could always cut a deal - and give what she could..she could negotiate because she had a personal connection with the doctor - walkin clinics and the lack of family physicans has created a commie non-connection between doctor and patient. The second rate doctors are commies - because they are mundane - the gifted ones either go for the big buck or the big ideal - but not both.

It wasn't charity....but it was affordable. I don't know why people get so hung up on having a personal connection with their doctor...or plumber for that matter.

I like my doctor to be a prick just like me! :lol: