Hamas is not helping things

[jbg]

The next question is why do the Palestinians favour the most barbaric and ruthless strategies that kill off any good will they could hope to have on the other side, to fight futile attempts against Israel?

As Abba Eban said tha tthe Palestinians “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” (link)

[M.Dancer]

They missed an opportunity to rocket a kindergarten today.

Ask me why I care so little when they complain that the Israelis are using a disproportionate response.....

[Born Free]

The days of Israel being over privledged and protected are over...This last episode of over kill has exposed them as the arrogant nuts they are

Many said the same thing when Hezbolah decided to play silly bugger. Israels response in Lebanon was disproportinate.

The reality is, dont play silly bugger with Israel. They play for keeps....and rightly so. It isnt arrogance that drives them. Its self-preservation. If you and the Hamas gang havent figured that out by now, you dont know your history.

Cheers,

[jbg]

The reality is, dont play silly bugger with Israel. They play for keeps....and rightly so. It isnt arrogance that drives them. Its self-preservation. If you and the Hamas gang havent figured that out by now, you dont know your history.

I'm not particularly religious and definitely not a Bible thumper. That being said the Old Testament has numerous examples, the battle of David and Goliath being just one, of what happens when you trifle with Israel.

[Oleg Bach]

I'm not particularly religious and definitely not a Bible thumper. That being said the Old Testament has numerous examples, the battle of David and Goliath being just one, of what happens when you trifle with Israel.

King David quietly had Bathsheeba's husband killed so he could have sex with her ----not very ethical begining...If they want self preservation let them move to Forest Hill...I hear it's comfortable there - this fanatical and desperate idea of having a homeland is stupid - no one has a homeland these days - we are all homeless and displace in a fashion - welcome to the new world Israel.

[WestViking]

King David quietly had Bathsheeba's husband killed so he could have sex with her ----not very ethical begining...If they want self preservation let them move to Forest Hill...I hear it's comfortable there - this fanatical and desperate idea of having a homeland is stupid - no one has a homeland these days - we are all homeless and displace in a fashion - welcome to the new world Israel.

That is inane. We all have a 'homeland'; some of us are fortunate enough to enjoy a historical homeland as well as a land of birth. Patriotism is no longer politically correct, but it is the glue that creates great nations. Edited February 2, 2009 by WestViking

[Born Free]

King David quietly had Bathsheeba's husband killed so he could have sex with her ----not very ethical begining...If they want self preservation let them move to Forest Hill...I hear it's comfortable there - this fanatical and desperate idea of having a homeland is stupid - no one has a homeland these days - we are all homeless and displace in a fashion - welcome to the new world Israel.

This reads like a Hamas manifesto....

[eyeball]

That is inane. We all have a 'homeland'; some of us are fortunate enough to enjoy a historical homeland as well as a land of birth. Patriotism is no longer politically correct, but it is the glue that creates great nations.

Patriotism is actually more like an enzyme that catalyzes an even more violent reaction when people fight one another.

We all have the same homeland but that's probably an even more politically incorrect notion.

[Rue]

Hamas is basically an organization very much like the Hagganah and the Hadassah - two of the foundations of Zionism in Palestine that preceded the declaration of the state of Israel. This is why they wre so successful in the last Palestinian elections.

For you to suggest Hamas is no different then Hadassah is past the point of absurd.

For you to compare what Hamas does to what the Hagganah suggests Hamas is not doing anything today Hagganah did not do.

Your attempt to revise history to try rationalize and defend what Hamas is doing as acceptable is to be expected.

For anyone who does not know what Hadassah is it was established in 1912 in New York City by the Daughters of Zion, a women's study group. Hadassah helped create the Hebrew University of Jerusalem-Hadassah Medical School, the Henrietta Szold Hadassah-Hebrew University School of Nursing and Hadassah College Jerusalem. In 1967, Hadassah took over management of Young Judaea, a Zionist youth movement, and merged it with Junior Hadassah under the Young Judaea name.

At no time have they engaged in terror or supported terrorism and to suggest they have is odious.

What it did do for example was to rescue tens of thousands of children from the Holocaust and subsequently becoming involved in rescue of Jewish youth around the world and their integration in Israeli society.

Hadassah is a major supporter of The Hadassah Medical Organization (HMO), consisting of two hospital complexes at Ein Kerem and Mount Scopus in Jerusalem which treat both Jewish Israelis, Palestinians and non Jewish Israelis.

Haganah was a Jewish paramilitary organization from 1920 to 1948, which later became the core of the Israel Defense Forces. After Arab riots in 1920 and 1921 in Jaffa, the Jewish people were forced to create this organization when the British refused to protect Jews from Arab gang attacks.

Haganah's role was to warn the residents of and then defend against attacks by Palestinian Arab gangs. Haganah were nothing more then Jewish farmers who took turns guarding their farms.

After the Arab massacres of Jews in 1929, and that is when it began acquiring foreign arms and evolved into an underground army.

By 1936 the Haganah numbered 10,000 with another 40,000 reservists. During the 1936-1939 Arab revolts in Palestine, it did serve as a force to protect British interests and counter Arab rebellion.

What Higgly is well aware is that the British administration cooperated with it by forming the Jewish Settlement Police, Jewish Auxiliary Forces and Special Night Squads, which were trained and led by Colonel Orde Wingate.

What makes Higgly's comment about Haganah odious as well is that while it is true many Haganah fighters objected to its policy of havlagah (restraint) Higgly is well aware Haganah fighters were only allowed to use force to defend communities BUT WERE NOT ALLOWED to initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities.

This is why an organizations split from Haganah called the Irgun Tsva'i-Leumi (Etsel). Then in 1940, the Irgun found a faction of its group splintering off into Lochamei Herut Yisrael (also known as Lehi or the Stern gang).

Irgun thought it was necessary to engage in counter offensive attacks on Arab gangs. Then later Lehi felt it was necessary to engage in attacks against the British even during WW2.

To suggest Haganah used suicide bombers against innocent civilians, used children, pregnant women and innocent civilians as shields is utter b.s.

Irgun did attack Arab gangs and in certain acts committed attacks that killed innocent civilians on buses. The Stern Gang was a terrorist cell no doubt about it.

However the Stern Gang did not represent the vast majority of Israelis nor was it ever elected to office by any Israeli on the contrary it was denounced.

As for Irgun, yes Menachem Begin and Yithak Shamir went on to become elected members of Likud and Prime Ministers of Israel and it can be argued some of what they did engage in constituted terror but that does not make what Hamas does acceptable and Menachem Begin and Yithak Shamir are no different then what Yasir Arafat claimed to be or Mr. Abbas now claims to be.

To suggest as Higgly did that Haganah had a charter to rid the Middle East of all Muslims and kill Muslims worldwide until this was achieved and send suicide bombers to kill innocent Muslim civilians or deliberately shoot arbitrarily with missiles or for that matter bullets at unarmed civilians is b.s. It is pure fabrication.

More to the point anyone who justifies terror by saying the Israelis did it so we can do it for no other reason engages in another defective exercise-two wrongs would not and can not make a right and it is why the IRA disarmed before it sat down to engage in peace dialogue and why Shamir and Begin had to denounce certain beliefs before they could join Likud and become elected in the Knesset.

More to the point Neither Shamir nor Begin nor Irgun or Stern Gang as questionable as they all may have been, killed their fellow Jews as Hamas does with its fellow Palestinians it disagrees with.

The Stern Gang at their largest never amounted to more then 200 hundred at their peek and during most of their operations would have been around 45.

The Stern Gang engaged in a terrorist attack against Palestinian civilians at Deir Yassin which reportedly had 120 of its members attack innocent Palestinian civilians and terrorize them.

What the Stern Gang did was dispicable and does not rationalize or legitamize what Hamas does or any terrorist does.

More to the point nothing Irgun or Lehi did led to Israeli independence, not a damn thing.

Edited February 2, 2009 by Rue

[Rue]

Further to the above post, for those of you who think Haganah appeared out of nowehere for no reason please understand Jews were being attacked in Palestine as a result of the Mufti of Jerusalem calling on Arabs to attack and kill Jews before he fled to live as a guest of Hitler during WW2. By 1936, Jews in Palestine accounted for 30 percent of the population. After the Mufti of Jeursalem (Husseini) fled to Berlin, he continued to broadcast back to Arabs urging them to kill and riot against Jews inciting the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood to create a mass Palestinian revolt in 1936. From the early 1920's to the end of WW2 Jews were attacked randomly by Arab religious gangs organized by the Mufti and this brotherhood.

Attacks on Jews intensified to the point in 1936 where their homes weree set afire, shops looted and orchards destroyed and so this is how Haganah came about and then Irgun and the Stern Gang.

Haganah however unlike Hamas did not randomly target civilians or attack civilians. Even Irgun which engaged in certain questionable actions for the most part directed their attacks against Muslim gangs. The Stern Gang spent most of their hatred targetted at the British.

If Hamas were to operate like Haganah did, it would wear a uniform and engage in conventional war.

This arguement that Israelis are evil so Hamas can be is the kind of pointless rhetoric that only inflames hatred.

The point is as one reader suggested if Palestinians engaged in Ghandi like tactics this would have taken a far different course.

Anyone who would suggest engaging in terror is a rational way to bring about independence ignores the very historic fact Israel came about because it fought a conventional war forced upon it when the Arab League would not negotiate with it peacefully. To suggest otherwise is revisionist pap.

[DogOnPorch]

Well said, Rue.

-----------------

[jbg]

For anyone who does not know what Hadassah is it was established in 1912 in New York City by the Daughters of Zion, a women's study group. Hadassah helped create the Hebrew University of Jerusalem-Hadassah Medical School, the Henrietta Szold Hadassah-Hebrew University School of Nursing and Hadassah College Jerusalem. In 1967, Hadassah took over management of Young Judaea, a Zionist youth movement, and merged it with Junior Hadassah under the Young Judaea name.

You forget about their exploding bridge chairs and booby-trapped mah-jongg sets.

[jbg]

The point is as one reader suggested if Palestinians engaged in Ghandi like tactics this would have taken a far different course.

Exactly. One could safely internationalize Jerusalem under those conditions, as easily as two other countries have a joint Glacier-Waterton Lakes International Peace Park. Forming a normal border is relatively easy. Forming an armistice line where eventually killing resumes is not, unless one uses a standstill from the last battles as such a line.

[eyeball]

I wonder what would happen if Israeli's joined Palestinians on their hunger strikes?

I bet its what Jesus would do.

[Chris in KW]

The days of Israel being over privledged and protected are over...This last episode of over kill has exposed them as the arrogant nuts they are - they lost international credibility - They had over 60 years to make peace with their neighbours...and did not seem to have the will to do so.

You know, I also had been looking at the recent events in Israel, and thinking "Isn't this disproportionate response? Isn't Israel just adding to the problem?

However, I was recently talking to an (Egyptian) friend of mine who is very familiar with the issue. I asked him "why doesn't Israel just offer to make Gaza an independent country? Wouldn't that solve it?

He replied that Israel has made such offers in the past, and the palestinians have ignored them.

One example is the Camp David summit in 2000, where Arafat rejected a seemingly good offer brokered by Clinton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Pales...mmit_.282000.29

I'm no longer so sure that Israel is the bully here....

Edited February 6, 2009 by Chris in KW

[Oleg Bach]

You know, I also had been looking at the recent events in Israel, and thinking "Isn't this disproportionate response? Isn't Israel just adding to the problem?

However, I was recently talking to an (Egyptian) friend of mine who is very familiar with the issue. I asked him "why doesn't Israel just offer to make Gaza an independent country? Wouldn't that solve it?

He replied that Israel has made such offers in the past, and the palestinians have ignored them.

One example is the Camp David summit in 2000, where Arafat rejected a seemingly good offer brokered by Clinton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Pales...mmit_.282000.29

I'm no longer so sure that Israel is the bully here....

The solution is to pin point the individuals that perpetuate this fraud called peace "process" - find out who the individuals are within the Palisintian power structure (posted outside of Palistine) AND find out exactly who the Israeli individuals ( posted outside and inside the nation) are - and do a quick political surgical strike against these hooligans - and remove the bastards! You have to go to the source - the finaciers...not the political grunts or stooges. There is a way out here but the world in general is deverted away from the real jerks that are responsible - most power is conducted in secret - find out who they are that block peace and give them the boot - now.

[Rue]

I wonder what would happen if Israeli's joined Palestinians on their hunger strikes?

I bet its what Jesus would do.

Israelis and Palestinians in peace movements have worked together on grass roots peace projects and as polarized as things seem to be, they are still there-the terrorists and extremists may have the floor at the moment but they are still there too.

Without terror, anything I mean anything is possible in terms of what form peace could take or evolve unto. I personally believe it needs to start with basic grass roots projects such as roads, waterways, shared medical facilities, common trading markets-non political activities that both sides have a mutual interest in.

I wish I could take every Israeli and Palestinian child alive and bring them to the same homes across the world to live together for awhile so when they return they do not see each other as demons any more.

Its been done with many conflicted groups on a small level. I wish I could just do it with them all. The only value I would force on them all is that they have to be Habs fans.

[eyeball]

I'm no longer so sure that Israel is the bully here....

No, but it always takes two to Tango don't forget. I'm quite certain Israelies like Palestinians are also victims of several circumstances beyond their control. Oleg's points about secrecy and the never-ending machinations of interfering outsiders are the most devastating - these are root causes of virtually every conflict on the planet.

Interfering and meddling in the affairs of smaller nations by superpowers is probably the single greatest threat our species faces. In addition to creating most of the global instability and human misery on the planet its responsible for making it almost impossible to deal with these.

The unfortunate people living in the eastern Mediterranian are victims of what should quite simply be regarded as being amongst the most henious crimes that can be committed against humanity. In terms of sheer revulsion for such self-serving evil I would compare super-power meddling with smaller nations to the violent sexual abuse of a small weak child by a large powerful adult. The analogy is perfectly apt given how the effects of abuse often lead to self-destructive impulses and further abuse and dysfunction in successive generations of countries and people alike.

I think if Jesus suddenly appeared on the scene he'd take one look around and say something like "you morons haven't learned a thing in 2000 years have you?"

[WIP]

I get weary looking at a lot of international political issues that drag on endlessly and often wonder what the real root causes of the problems are. Well, I think I've found something interesting here about the Palestinian problem: we have been told endlessly over the last 30 years that the Palestinians' birth rates are much higher than Israels', and they are going to beat the Israelis by population demographics alone, if nothing else changes. But the problem of rampant, unchecked population growth is never analyzed by the expert opinion-makers who hand out all of the free advice on how to bring peace to the MiddleEast -- instead they argue about how to divide up the land for a two-state solution.

I decided to check into the overpopulation problem in Gaza, when Jimmy Carter tossed it out in an interview but didn't expand on the point. He talked about the miserable conditions, such as increasing water shortages and other factors that are detrimental to the quality of life. But for some reason, with all of the time and energy Jimmy has devoted to the quest for a lasting peace agreement, he didn't ask WHY Gaza and the West Bank are overpopulated and seem unable or unwilling to bring their population growth rates under control -- even though they are already experiencing the deprivations of reaching limits to growth. Instead, we find Gaza among the regions of the world with the highest population growth rates:

Total fertility is still above 6.5 births per woman in 10 countries or areas, namely Afghanistan, Angola, Burkina Faso, the Gaza Strip, Malawi, Mali, the Niger, Somalia, Uganda, and Yemen. Commission on Population and Development Concise report on world population monitoring, 1999: population gorwth, structure and distribution

http://www.overpopulation.org/culture.html

So, facing water shortages and accompanying diseases of overcrowding in unsanitary conditions, what do they choose to do.......have more babies! And what is stopping them from facing up to the new reality? Religion! A religion that blesses fertility and curses barrenness, and bans abortion and any birth control measures that the individual woman might choose if she decided to try to limit the number of children she will have herself! And how does overpopulation and declining living standards feed terrorism and hostile aggression.........the answer should be obvious.

[Oleg Bach]

Then the area should be opened up so the population is not jammed into an open human sewer. Instead of a two state solution they should unite - and expand. But I am sure that some will not like the idea of peace - there are those addicted to conflict - personally and economially. Those are the ones that have to go - IF the average person was asked the question on whether they wanted peace and a united semite world - they would consider it. Again - exclution is the disease not over population. Speaking to a man who has lived and visited Israel recently - I was taken back by how un-informed he was and how he was going on old information that may not be true or accurate - education of young Palisinians and Jews is needed. Push the old guard aside that brain wash the kids and young adults. They on both sides are not interested in the good health of the people - If they were there would be evidence of a will to do so.

[WIP]

Then the area should be opened up so the population is not jammed into an open human sewer.

Yes, and turn the whole MiddleEast, and then the whole world into an open human sewer! If they are breeding like rabbits in conditions that are plainly, obviously overcrowded, what will their birth rates be if they are free to move anywhere and "be fruitful and multiply?" Fix the dysfunctional system that encourages overpopulation first.

[jbg]

I'm no longer so sure that Israel is the bully here....

I am glad to see someone with an open mind join the Board. Quite obviously this has nothing to do with "1967 borders". The minute that concept was by and large accepted by Israel, Arafat demanded a "right of return", i.e. a right to flood 1948-67 Israel with Muslim immigrants.

This is not about boundaries; it's about elimination.

[JB Globe]

They should stop. Palestinain leaders should encourage Palestinians to adopt other ways of dealing with their dispossession and occupation. I suggest small highly publicized group hunger strikes with the threat of escalating these into larger one's would be far more effective at motivating the world to pressure Israel to reconcile the differences they have with their hosts.

I think appealing to humanity's humanity really is the only option. Should Palestinians choose this option they can count on me giving them as much support as I can humanly muster.

Totally co-sign.

Since we're talking about the Middle East I tend to not try and make moral arguments because it's pretty useless, and neither side really cares too much about morality, so I make practical arguments, and the facts are that terrorism and occupation are both the worst strategies for attaining what each side really wants - peace and security.

If terrorism or occupation worked, than the situation would not be as bad as it is right now for either side in this conflict.

[kimmy]

So, in wake of the battle in Gaza, the Israeli election turned into a one-issue referendum on the question of how hard to crack down on Palestinians. And judging from the results, the answer is "harder". With centerist Tzipi Livni and right-winger Benjamin Netanyahu fighting to a virtual deadlock, the balance of power now resides with ultra-right wing leader Avigdor Lieberman, whose slogan "no loyalty, no citizenship" was a startling hit with Israeli voters. It seems likely that the result of the election will be a governing coalition between Netanyahu and Lieberman.

There seems to be widespread agreement that the cause of the dramatic shift to the right in this election was the clash with Hamas, and the rocket attacks were if not the cause then at the very least the justification for that confrontation.

And that, my friends, is the definition of "Not helping things."

-k

[tango]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/7843307.stm

If the implication is that the IDF is helping, how is shooting children at close range "helping"?