Online voting increases voter turnout minimum 30%

[CAMP]

PDP-11? Perhaps you do have me beat! All I ever did with a PDP-8 was to write a simple program to make the bell ring!

However, would I have you trumped if I said that my granny was named Babbage?

We may have online voting soon for things like voting within a party membership but we are still some years from it being used for federal and provincial elections. You state that it is private and secure but not HOW it is so!

I don't know where you live but if you are in Toronto you would be well aware that the number of women who would NOT be private and secure while voting at home could be in the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands! Not every neighbourhood is the same as where you grew up.

I would agree that it would be convenient. So what? That still doesn't address the problem of secrecy. Or security. With a paper ballot, you always can have a physical, audited recount. We both know that software is prone to hacking. Particularly any GOVERNMENT RUN software!

Hell, every time we pick up the paper we hear how some nitwit dumped a few cartons of confidential tax records on the sidewalk, or hacked into a government database. Do you expect us to trust them with the electronic votes during an election?

Your enthusiasm reminds me of the words of a Motorola engineer who gave us disti salespeople a training session one evening. It was the late 70's and he told us "Within 5 years there will not be a single vacuum tube made or sold! Solid state will have replaced everything!"

I just smiled. He had no idea of all the applications out there. Even 5 years later 10 kw was the limit in output power for a solid state AM radio transmitter and even then it used lower powered modules in parallel. Any higher power or higher frequency like FM or television still required tubes.

Audio never gave tubes up! Not just hifi audiophiles who prefer vacuum tubes but musicians. Most professional guitarists won't use a solid state amp if you put a gun to their head, except for a few clean jazz cats. Why? Because electric guitar is SUPPOSED to be distorted! Transistor distortion is harsh, unlike that of tubes. It's just the physics of how the devices work.

There's still millions of dollars of vacuum tubes made and sold today. The industry where I sold that engineer's products has collapsed to a shadow of its former self, at least in Canada. Meanwhile, I make my living building and repairing music equipment like guitar amps...that use vacuum tubes!

As Gildna Radner often said "Details, always details!"

Online voting is no different. Someone will have to solve those details.

Well Bill no one is ever going to solve the problem of personal security in regards to women and their husbands.

If a husband is as controlling as you say, chances are she's staying home and not voting at all then.

As far as security of the actual vote. All I can say is here's how it would shake down.

You would be on a list just like you are now and get a card and pin number in the mail. The second part would be the security question part which could be as simple as entering your birthdate or more complicated question.

Either way you must have the pin number and be able to answer a personal question to be able to cast an electronic vote. So there is the main difference from a walk in vote where you show ID and vote privately behind the little cardboard stand.

I guess it could be said that anyone could use your ID to go vote in a walk in election also.

So as long as you keep your pin number on your person like you do your bank pin and know your personal question it's secure. Of course theft either voting method erases security. Now as for keeping your vote a personal secret... that's up to you.. vote electronically on your own, don't do it at a bar in front of everyone.

As far as security of the system electronically that the information won't be tampered with... that's up to the human element again. The walk in ballot is the same, anyone can corrupt the system and in fact probably more people could do that system in many easier ways because it is so simple, doesn't require a hacker with special knowledge, just someone slippery enough to find a way to do it. And there has been slippery times with our regular method in the past.

As far as recount or audit, the computer system can give real time statistics and be monitored directly by a human monitor (s) and is also backed up on more than one computer system. The electonic voting would occur 7 days prior to the walk in vote so all online voting would be kept strickly confidential to the auditory board.

It's secure as the walk in vote.

I live in Kitchener so I know all about Toronto people, travel there quite often. And small world but I use to supply a company that makes vacuum tube guitar amps with wire harnesses a few years ago Yorkville Sound.

I use to fix TV's stereos and all sorts of electronic gear so details are my specialty also.

You will be very surprised as to when electronic voting begins provicially. It's not that far away.

[Wild Bill]

What about this part?

Perhaps the way to sell this idea is to put it in more comforting old fashioned concepts that simpler folks can understand. Democracy should be viewed as being like the hand of God manifesting itself through our collective act of voting. We place great faith in the invisible hand that's working in our economy why not untie the other hand from behind God's back and let it be felt throughout our democracy as well?

This should be in the Bible don't you think? I thought it was a pretty slick analogy coming from an atheist.

Well, I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask about the Bible. I do read a lot of fiction but the Bible is not on my list.

[Wild Bill]

Well Bill no one is ever going to solve the problem of personal security in regards to women and their husbands.

If a husband is as controlling as you say, chances are she's staying home and not voting at all then.

As far as security of the actual vote. All I can say is here's how it would shake down.

You would be on a list just like you are now and get a card and pin number in the mail. The second part would be the security question part which could be as simple as entering your birthdate or more complicated question.

Either way you must have the pin number and be able to answer a personal question to be able to cast an electronic vote. So there is the main difference from a walk in vote where you show ID and vote privately behind the little cardboard stand.

I guess it could be said that anyone could use your ID to go vote in a walk in election also.

So as long as you keep your pin number on your person like you do your bank pin and know your personal question it's secure. Of course theft either voting method erases security. Now as for keeping your vote a personal secret... that's up to you.. vote electronically on your own, don't do it at a bar in front of everyone.

As far as security of the system electronically that the information won't be tampered with... that's up to the human element again. The walk in ballot is the same, anyone can corrupt the system and in fact probably more people could do that system in many easier ways because it is so simple, doesn't require a hacker with special knowledge, just someone slippery enough to find a way to do it. And there has been slippery times with our regular method in the past.

As far as recount or audit, the computer system can give real time statistics and be monitored directly by a human monitor (s) and is also backed up on more than one computer system. The electonic voting would occur 7 days prior to the walk in vote so all online voting would be kept strickly confidential to the auditory board.

It's secure as the walk in vote.

I live in Kitchener so I know all about Toronto people, travel there quite often. And small world but I use to supply a company that makes vacuum tube guitar amps with wire harnesses a few years ago Yorkville Sound.

I use to fix TV's stereos and all sorts of electronic gear so details are my specialty also.

You will be very surprised as to when electronic voting begins provicially. It's not that far away.

Well, not voting is not as bad as one person voting many times by controlling the PINs for his entire family. And yes, we have and have had problems with our historical system, what with dead people voting and Elections Canada people at your door who take your word for it as to who in the house is really a Canadian system. It's a total honour system and of course that means its abused.

Still, instead of cleaning up an existing system should we abandon it in favour of one that can totalize different flaws much faster?

The most powerful advantage of our present system is the use of scrutineers. There is an excellent chance that a scrutineer from the riding might catch someone lying about who they were, because they actually knew the people of that name! Not always, but often enough to catch some fraud. Enough such cases for one specific candidate could result in charges.

As the old saying goes, any judge is an honest judge as long as he's being watched. With online voting nobody could be watching.

Yes, Yorkville sound was my account also! Great bunch of people. Last year I got to spend supper and an evening with Pete Traynor and his lovely wife Suzanne. He's one of my heroes!

I may not be as surprised as you think about seeing electronic voting. The appeal of the time and cost-savings is enormous. However, I'll bet a shot of good scotch that we will see it becoming a problem in some ridings, with disputes from some candidates.

[CAMP]

LOL, In this country, in 2009 and beyond, if we go with online voting we could have 110% voter turnout.

Thanks, but when there's no polling station or ballot box, when I can't present my face and backup ID to cast the ballot, the missus and I will go for some fowl at the Chalet instead.

Well then let's hope for your sake that it's a late fall election when the Chalet is giving away those yummy chocolates with their Christmas deal!

[CAMP]

Let's admit the ID law they put in was a big failure causing a lot of students to lose their votes.

The problem lays in the fact that if your moving around for whatever reason, you are on and off lists for voting purposes no matter walk in voting or online voting. The point is mute in relation to online voting. With either system it is still the personal responsibility to look after your right to vote.

[Riverwind]

Online voting may not be so bad if it simply replaced the mail in ballot option.

i.e. you have to explicitly request a pin to be mailed to you each election. this would allow you to submit your votes online instead of mailing a paper ballot back.

This approach would ensure the government is not mailing PINs to old addresses and would have no more potential for abuse than the current mail in option.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Riverwind

[Topaz]

I'm totally against online or computer voting because the security can not be guaranteed. If people can hack into the US government computers, a hackers can hack anywhere. Bush was voted in by software that allowed someone to change the results in his favour. To read more on the hazards of online or computer voting www.blackboxvoting.org Bev Harris, an American has been telling how unsecured this way of voting can be.

[Canadian Blue]

Bush was voted in by software that allowed someone to change the results in his favour.

Really, he won over 50% of the vote through computer fraud?

[Smallc]

Better check those numbers in terms of the US election. Not saying I necessarily agree with the rest of his statement though.

[Jules_Jewels317]

And as I said, if people are too lazy to vote using the current mechanisms then they should not be voting (BTW laziness is the *only* reason for not voting - being too busy just an excuse used to cover up laziness).

There are some people who don't vote where laziness is not a factor at all, like myself in the last election. I tried to vote with my voter card and was not allowed. I live in a rural area and it takes me 20 minutes to get to the nearest polling station. I went the one indicated on my voter card (a 20 minute drive) and when I got there I was told I wasn't on their list of voters. I showed them my voter card and the person in charge of the polling station got on the phone with the higher-ups and found out that they had mis-printed the polling station I was to go to and that I was registered at another one and they gave me the location. So then, I had to drive to another polling station that was 20 minutes in the other direction from my house (so now it would take me 40 minutes to get there). When I got to the second polling station, the same thing happened, I was not on their list. So again, the person in charge called the higher-ups to find out what was going on. Same response a second time from them, I was at the wrong polling station and had to go to a different one. Another 45 minute drive from where I was. When I got to the 3rd polling station I was told the same thing again. Needless to say after driving for 1 hour and 45 minutes to 3 different polling stations, I did not vote. YOU CANNOT SAY THAT THE ONLY REASON FOR NOT VOTING IS LAZINESS!!!! That is not the case for everyone!

[Jules_Jewels317]

I have not been in a situation when the polling station was not a short walk away from my place. Weather is weather - if I have to go to work in it I can go to a polling station.

That's where you are wrong. It is a 20 minute drive for me to get to the polling station I'm supposed to vote at. Just because you happen to live in the city where there is a polling station every few blocks does not mean that everyone else does. But since I'm a farmer and should have to walk to my polling station, when you have no food at the grocery store you can blame yourself for calling farmers lazy.

[Molly]

Then there's the training for poll workers part...

[Jules_Jewels317]

I have to agree with Riverwind on this.

Camp seems to be under the illusion that if more people vote (ie. if we had higher turnouts), somehow government decisions would be better. This logic baffles me.

For starters, making it easier for people to vote doesn't necessarily mean that people will be more interested in the political process.

----

Camp, please understand that if you can't defend your ideas here, you'll get no where with them in the broader world. I can understand however why some private company might want to lobby in favour of this scheme.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was made easier to vote I think that a lot more people would be more inclined to vote. For people who live in rural areas, voting is not always an easy thing to do. If we could vote online, that would help us out greatly.

[M.Dancer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it was made easier to vote I think that a lot more people would be more inclined to vote. For people who live in rural areas, voting is not always an easy thing to do. If we could vote online, that would help us out greatly.

There's mail in ballots and advance polls...

[Jules_Jewels317]

Also, I believe that voting should be a very personal experience and that the physical act of it best eximplifies it personally. I think that the added convenience of online voting would add a certain spontaneity which would make the act of voting less an act of commitment to a certain politcal belief and more an act of preverbal act of publicity. I think most people who vote are the more serious ones in terms of political involvment and want to make that effort to vote. To most people who are'nt that serious the simple physicality involved in the act of voting is their deterrent which in most cases is quite welcome in terms of the philosophy of the vote.

I think you are dead wrong in what you just said. It is a common misconception that young people are not interested in politics, they are, they just don't talk about it all the time. Most young people know who they would vote for in an election and are educated more than most people who are older then them. Just because they are young, doesn't mean they're dumb.

I would also be willing to guess that the majority of people who are posting to this topic are early to mid-thirties or older and who grew up in a time where computers were not used as much as they are today. That is what the younger generations know and trust. Computers, even though their online security may be flawed right now are the way of the future and the younger generation are the future. Online voting is not something of the future, it is here now as it is already developed and being used to some degree.

If you can't get with the times and vote electronically, then you can still be the person who you say is not lazy and walk to your polling station. Have fun!!! While you go and walk your 5 minutes and stand in line for 25 just to place your vote, I'll place mine online in 2 minutes and move on with my life.

[Molly]

...which aren't used in anticipation of incompetence in the returning office. They aren't a solution to the problem this man faced.

That said, neither is internet voting.

I can just see: dialing to contact the returning office about your pin being refused, and getting a busy signal--- then eventually a canned menu, and being forwarded in an endless loop.

[Jules_Jewels317]

All banking transactions are carefully tracked. If there is a breech it is possible to go back an figure exactly how it happened and reverse any frauduant transactions. It would not be possible to do with an anonymous electronic vote.

I would not bet on it given the universal negative reaction on this forum from people of various political stripes.

Voting is not a government service. It is a right, a priviledge and a duty.

News flash buddy, it's already happening. There are more people for online voting than against it. It's just always the negative people who feel that their opinion is the only one that needs to be heard. So you just keep talking and mumbling in your own little corner, no one really minds. And while you do this we'll move into the 21st century and leave you behind.

[Jules_Jewels317]

I vote in a rural area (at my principle residence). I'm sure that I can drive the five minutes to vote. In other countries people wait in line for hours just to vote. In other countries, people fight and die for the simple right that so many of us take for granted.

Like i said. I think I can drive five minutes.

If you only have to drive 5 minutes to get to your polling station, then I wouldn't call it a rural area, I would call it the outskirts of the city. For people who have to drive 20 minutes, now that's a rural area.

[Mr.Canada]

With internet voting comes security risks with people cracking into the system and rigging the outcome. People will then be crying about that when the Tories win a massive majority for the fourth consecutive time in 2024 or so.

[M.Dancer]

I would also be willing to guess that the majority of people who are posting to this topic are early to mid-thirties or older and who grew up in a time where computers were not used as much as they are today. .

Let me guess? 19? Still iffy on things that happened a few years ago?

Anyone who is there mid 30s grew up with a PC given that the PC became common over 20 years ago. I would also like to point out that it was people older than the mid 30s who practically invented the PC and the internet.

But I'm 50 and I still dont use my laptop to fry eggs or do the laundry.....nor am I willing to hand over my democracy to something as painfully fragile as the internet.

[Jules_Jewels317]

Let me guess? 19? Still iffy on things that happened a few years ago?

Anyone who is there mid 30s grew up with a PC given that the PC became common over 20 years ago. I would also like to point out that it was people older than the mid 30s who practically invented the PC and the internet.

But I'm 50 and I still dont use my laptop to fry eggs or do the laundry.....nor am I willing to hand over my democracy to something as painfully fragile as the internet.

I'm not saying older people didn't have computers, I'm saying they didn't grow up with them. Kids who are in school today grew up with computers and that is what they know. There are some universities that are handing out Blackberry's now to their business students as one of their teaching tools. You can't submit a paper anymore that is in your own handwriting, it has to be done on a computer. Do I need to go on? Computers are now a way of life for the new generations that are now becoming voting age.

And by the way, I'm older than 19 and I'm not fuzzy at all about politics. I know what's going on and I've take numerous political science courses.

[M.Dancer]

You can't submit a paper anymore that is in your own handwriting, it has to be done on a computer.

I don't think you have been able to submit a hand written paper since the 30s.....and no it doesn't even now have to be on a computer...no...no need to go on..you have done quite enough.

[punked]

That's where you are wrong. It is a 20 minute drive for me to get to the polling station I'm supposed to vote at. Just because you happen to live in the city where there is a polling station every few blocks does not mean that everyone else does. But since I'm a farmer and should have to walk to my polling station, when you have no food at the grocery store you can blame yourself for calling farmers lazy.

Wow a whole 20 minutes? Really? So becuase you have to drive for 20 minutes all your crops will die you sound lazy. It is right to vote.

Edited January 22, 2009 by punked

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Online voting is a great idea, especially if you favour, as I do, direct democracy. In my opinion I believe there would be a great deal of support for such a concept. I think any political party worth its salt would slip the concept into their next platform. This kind of thing would work toward dealing with voter apathy. That is the real demon, the democratic disease of apathy.

Getting folks to participate in the political process may or may not provide better government, that is up to the individual to decide. The point is, the technology is there, and the concept is there, yet politicians seem to be a long ways from supporting it. It would in fact detract from their power, and that is what you face with this scenario.

[Jules_Jewels317]

I don't think you have been able to submit a hand written paper since the 30s.....and no it doesn't even now have to be on a computer...no...no need to go on..you have done quite enough.

I don't know what decade you went to school in, but I just finished College and every assignment that I had to submit, had to be submitted to the teacher via email. That's right I said email. So if you can tell me how I can do an assignment not on a computer and submit via email, let me know.