How low can Israeli supporters sink

Oleg Bach · January 16, 2009

Nonsense....but thank you for parading the last feel-good human rights term for the conflict.
What's the matter with calling it what it is....just another war. We have lots of 'em.....why is this one so "special"? Must be those.....Joooooooooooooooooos.

Cheney - a war is when one sides squares of with another and they wear red coats and stand up like men and take the hit....this "conflict" is more like shooting bears in a cage...or fish in a barrel - a war is something you enter into with the possiblity of actually losing your nation or your life - the Israelis are not at war - they are simply getting rid of the roaches - that were there when they stole the house. Oooops sorry - I mean returned to the "homeland" after being away on a prolonged trip that lasted a thousand years - Jezzz I wish I could go home.. seems everybody gets to go home but me....wish dear old mum was alive - I would go back to my old room and listen to the Stones....and maybe get a few stones though the window from the anglos that thought we were some sort of Palistinian trash. AND stop with the "Joooooooos" thing - I am not stupid or am I a hater - you doink!

Oleg Bach · January 16, 2009

Hmmm let's see.....Canada (never attacked) is "at war" and getting rid of "roaches" in Afghanistan, but Israel (attacked numerous times) is only allowed to have a "conflict" that "violates international law"?
The Israelis are at war...and have been since 1948.

Seem they have been going a long time and are not very good at making friends - but of course they have their "peace process" - that's like saying it will take for ever like some sort of process of litigative law that lasts for ever and enriches lawyers - stinky!

bush_cheney2004 · January 16, 2009

Cheney - a war is when one sides squares of with another and they wear red coats and stand up like men and take the hit....

Not any more 'bro....update your definition.

this "conflict" is more like shooting bears in a cage...or fish in a barrel - a war is something you enter into with the possiblity of actually losing your nation or your life - the Israelis are not at war - they are simply getting rid of the roaches - that were there when they stole the house.

But Canada gets a war without such risk....doesn't seem fair to me. If it looks like a war, and smells like a war, and bleeds like a war....then it's a war.

AND stop with the "Joooooooos" thing - I am not stupid or am I a hater - you doink!

Then let's be fair about "war"...anybody can have one....including Jooooooooooos.

segnosaur · January 16, 2009

are you here to make excuses or are you interested in a real and honest debate? israel has had plenty of time and opportunities to allow a palestinian state.

The terms of 242 specifically say all parties must end their beligerance.

As I have asked another poster... when exactly, since the state of Israel has formed, has there been any significant length of time (more than 2 or 3 years) when Israel was not either A: affected by terrorist attacks, or B: been under the threat of foreign military attacks?

likud has voted several times to never allow a palestinian state.

Irrelevant...

First of all, voting against allowing a Palestinian state when said state is likely to be used to launch terrorist attacks would be insane.

Secondly, believe it or not Likud is not the only political party in the region. In fact, the Israeli government has gone on record (as I have illustrated earlier here) supporting a 2 state solution.

there you go pointing fingers at one side and failing miserably to acknowledge the other side's stance. these extremist groups can be found on both sides.

As I've already pointed out... when you have extremist Israelis, they tend to be marginalized by society and government. They hold little or no sway.

On the other hand, the 'extremist groups' in the Palestinian side are far from marginalized... in fact, they actually hold power.

Maybe you should spend some time watching the TV show Tommorow's Pioneers. That will certainly open your eyes to the difference in the way that the Palestinians deal with things and the way Israelis do.

i'm sure you know that there are many israeli groups who oppose the establishment of a palestinian state. many of them are part of the knesset.

Yet those groups do not run the country. Unlike Hamas, who actually runs the Gaza strip.

majority of palestinians would be okay with a palestinian state living beside an israeli state. majority of israeli people feel the same way.

Yes, I'm sure most Palestinians and Israelis would be quite happy with a 2 state solution. The problem is, they also continue to support an organization (Hamas) who, as their charter, seeks to destroy Israel. That would be the equivalent of a Canadian saying "I'm not racist, but I'll vote for the Heritage Front because I like their economic policy". Sorry, you vote for a party which holds bizarre, destructive policies, you should not be surprised when those policies end up causing problems.

In any sane political system, the voter will reject a party that has policies that, if acted on, would be detrimental to the citizens. Unfortunately, that hasn't yet happened in Gaza.

But here's the thing: Israel has already removed its settlements from Gaza. Unilaterally. Not much that the people in Gaza can complain about.

oh no. there you go making excuses again. first of all, 9000 people were removed from gaza but at the same time, more than that amount have been moved into settlements in the west bank.

But Hamas (you know, the group that wants to destroy Israel) controls Gaza. If settlements were the only problem, the Gaza residents should already be happy.

As for the other settlements... Israel has taken action to dismantle settlements in the past (e.g. in the Sinai).... no reason to suspect that they wouldn't do so in the future if appropriate agreements are made.

they haven't. just because they remove a few trailers, it doesn't mean it's okay to start large settlement projects elsewhere.

Ummm.... the Israelis did not just have a few trailers in the Sinai.

There were over a dozen settlements... and in some cases the Israelis had to force out the Jewish settlers, then destroy their houses so they could not sneak back. So while I may not totally approve of the Jewish settlements, at least there is some historical evidence that Israel is willing to dismantle settlements (even over the objections of its own citizens).

you don't think sharon's visit to the temple mount was provocative? you don't think he was counting on a reaction? do you think that the timing of sharon's action was only a coincidence in regards to a sudden escalation of violence?

Actually, three are a lot of people (including some PLO members) who said that the violence had been planned ever since Arafat left the peace talks during the summer.

whatever.. 10 years ago. 15 years ago. it doesn't change the fact that it has only killed 28 people in 8 years. whereas over 350 palestinian children have been killed in the last 2 weeks.
Well, if your argument that Israel is wrong because not enough people have died to justify the invasion, then that's a totally different issue. To that, I have to repeat: Any country should have, as its priority, the protection of its own citizens.

that's not defending. perhaps israel should look into the condition that they've helped to create.

What, you mean the condition they helped to create by not allowing themselves to be pushed into the sea?

i know what chapter 6 and chapter 7 stand for.

Yet you point to those chapter 6 resolutions like they are somehow significant.

- collective punishment is illegal. yeah, israel is making up excuses, but any honest person has seen how israel has acted; ie, 300 children killed. look up the 4th geneva convention, article 33.

The fact that more Palestinians have been killed is not evidence of 'collective punishment'. The fact is, groups like Hamas engage in operations among civilian populations, and because of that, innocent people will die.

If Israel REALLY wanted to kill off the Palestinians, don't you think they could do a better job than just 300?

- look up the geneva convention, protocal 1. if i remember correctly, it's article 75 - this explains the treatment of civilians during armed conflicts

I believe that particular section also includes provisions that allow for safety and security. Preventing people from being killed by suicide bombers and/or rocket attacks would certainly fall under that.

there are so many more violations that i don't have time to lookup. all you need to do is to take a peak at the geneva convention and the hague regulations.

You made the claim, you are responsible for providing evidence.

KeyStone · January 16, 2009

Except for the fact that rocket attacks and Mortar attacks continued throughout this 'ceasefire' agreement. I guess you have no problem with that.

Well, those didn't come from Hamas until just recently in response to Israel killing 6 Hamas members.

In fact, Hamas, attempted to stop other groups from launching rockets.

During the ceasefire, rocket attacks were reduced by 98%.

If you are going to ignore everything that Hamas did, simply because a few rockets got through, then you aren't interested in peace, you're interested in justifying further settlements etc. You need to realize that with all the dead Palestinians, and with all the weapons caches - there will always be someone firing off the occasional rocket. It will take both time and cooperation to change the culture, ease the hatred, and remove the rockets.

M.Dancer · January 16, 2009

Well, those didn't come from Hamas until just recently in response to Israel killing 6 Hamas members.
In fact, Hamas, attempted to stop other groups from launching rockets.

Of course they didn't. They cam from Hama5, Which is completely different. In fact, they arrested the rocketeers I;m sure...

KeyStone · January 16, 2009

Of course they didn't. They cam from Hama5, Which is completely different. In fact, they arrested the rocketeers I;m sure...

Well, we know this, because other groups (Martyrs Brigade) claimed responsibility. Generally, if Hamas launches rockets, they aren't ashamed to acknowledge it.

M.Dancer · January 16, 2009

Well, we know this, because other groups (Martyrs Brigade) claimed responsibility. Generally, if Hamas launches rockets, they aren't ashamed to acknowledge it.

And of cours you believe Hamas has no control over these groups... :lol:

tango · January 16, 2009

Hmmm let's see.....Canada (never attacked) is "at war" and getting rid of "roaches" in Afghanistan, but Israel (attacked numerous times) is only allowed to have a "conflict" that "violates international law"?
The Israelis are at war...and have been since 1948.

Israel is in an illegal war of aggression, violating the borders of Palestine agreed upon in 1967.

There are no excuses for what Israel is doing. Israel is committing war crimes and will be brought to justice.

It isn't about "joooooooos". Many of them in Canada are protesting Israel.

It's about one country illegally invading the territory of another . .. for decades ... and getting away with it because it serves US aggression-for-oil purposes.

Don't be naive.

DogOnPorch · January 16, 2009

Israel is in an illegal war of aggression, violating the borders of Palestine agreed upon in 1967.
Don't be naive.

Best read-up on the 6 Day War. The 'ceasefire agreement' came with Israel holding not only Gaza, but the Sinai and the Golan Heights. Once done with the 6 Day War, move on to The Yom Kippur War.

--------------------------------

Virgil Caine is my name and I drove on the Danville train,

Till Stoneman's cavalry came and they tore up the tracks again

In the winter of '65, we were hungry, just barely alive

By May the tenth, Richmond had fell - it's a time I remember oh so well...

---The Band

bush_cheney2004 · January 16, 2009

Israel is in an illegal war of aggression, violating the borders of Palestine agreed upon in 1967.

It is not illegal...get a clue.

There are no excuses for what Israel is doing. Israel is committing war crimes and will be brought to justice.

There are over 5,000 excuses. Israel laughs at your "war crimes" propaganda, and so do I.

It isn't about "joooooooos". Many of them in Canada are protesting Israel.

But not Africa? Or South America? Or Caledonia? Must be Jooooooooooozzzzz!

It's about one country illegally invading the territory of another . .. for decades ... and getting away with it because it serves US aggression-for-oil purposes.

Really? Some of that oil goes to eastern Canada...oh my!

Don't be naive.

Very ironic.....

segnosaur · January 16, 2009

Except for the fact that rocket attacks and Mortar attacks continued throughout this 'ceasefire' agreement. I guess you have no problem with that.

Well, those didn't come from Hamas until just recently...

Whether Hamas actually fired the rockets themselves or others did it from within Gaza, as the governing body Hamas has a responsibility to control the area.

Hypothetical situation... if the Toronto's Liberation Front started launching rocket attacks at Buffalo (not that anyone there would notice), it would be up to Canada to stop those attacks. If Canada chose not to, then the U.S. would not be blameless for taking matters into their own hands and stopping the attacks themselves.

As Human Rights Watch (a group which has no problem criticizing Israel) states: (see: http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/11/20/lett...rocket-attacks)

We recognize that until last week Hamas took efforts to halt rocket attacks by other groups as part of the June 19 ceasefire. However, throughout the ceasefire period other armed groups have continued to intermittently fire rockets from Gaza. As the governing authority in the Gaza Strip, it is your responsibility under international law to prevent such attacks, and to arrest and prosecute those who carry them out.

Perhaps if Hamas spent less time trying to intimidate and control journalists, and less time broadcasting anti-semetic children's shows, they might have more resources to, you know, stop those attacks.

In fact, Hamas, attempted to stop other groups from launching rockets.

Note that the same letter from HRW contains the following passage:

On July 10 at least three members of the Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were detained for firing rockets. All were later released however, and no charges were brought against them

So, you claim that Hamas was trying to stop rocket attacks during the cease fire. What exactly does it says about their 'attempts' to stop the attacks if they don't even lay charges against those firing the rockets?

I guess it gives them 'plausible deniability'. Hamas: "See? We tried to stop the attacks. We detained people for firing rockets. They had to spend 5 minutes at the police station. Granted, we bought them dinner afterwards, but we didn't pay for desert!"

During the ceasefire, rocket attacks were reduced by 98%.

Well, lets see.. the cease fire began in June 2008. In the 1 month following this cease fire, there were rocket or mortar attacks on the following days:June 20, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, July 3, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, and 15.

Oh, and by the way, at the time the cease fire was in effect, Israel had one if their soldiers held captive by Hamas. To me, holding hostages is not something that people do when they're trying to foster peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit

Oh, and by the way... you seem to keep suggesting that the cease fire fell apart only after Israel killed several Hamas members. Did you ever think that perhaps there was a reason? After all, there were reports that the Israeli attacks were the result of a tunnel uncovered at the Gaza/Israel border that was designed to assist in the kidnapping of Israeli solders. (Yes, I'm sure you'll be all apologetic and suggest Hamas would never do such a thing, and criticize the Israelis of spreading false information. But the fact that they have continued to old Gilad Shalit, without allowing him access to the Red Cross, suggests that such plans by Hamas are quite possible.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/0...estinians-egypt

If you are going to ignore everything that Hamas did

What, like continue to hold Israeli prisioners without giving them access to the Red Cross or any sort of legal representation? Like releasing people they pick up for launching rockets without putting them in jail? Like digging tunnels under the border?

You need to realize that with all the dead Palestinians, and with all the weapons caches - there will always be someone firing off the occasional rocket. It will take both time and cooperation to change the culture, ease the hatred, and remove the rockets.

Well, lets see... do you think Hamas, with their TV program Tommorow's Pioneers, is a good step into easing the hatred and improving the culture?

Edited January 16, 2009 by segnosaur

tango · January 16, 2009

The topic asks: "how low can Israeli supproters sink."
Funny how the numerous incidents cited in some media only demonstrates the kind of barbarism Israel had to endure. These scums have been imported and now are scattered all over the world.

I would like to think the author of this topic made a typo error. He must be asking about the pro-Palestines.

How come anti-Israelis are so prone to violence? Even when they live smack in the middle of a civilized society. This is nothing new. We've seen these type of violent protests before - ALWAYS FROM THE SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE. The Anti-Israelis. The anti-USA. The anti-semites.

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"People who have been at the pro-and anti-Israel demonstrations in London have been producing some absolutely horrifying descriptions and images.

On Harry’s Place pictures (such as the one here from Indymedia) capture the violence and thuggery of the left/Islamist alliance."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-...gly-indeed.html

They have a duty to tell the British Muslim community publicly and in terms they understand that they have swallowed decades of lies and libels about Israel

Betsy ... It isn't libel and it isn't lies. Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian state, and continually violates the borders with illegal aggression to do it. It's their 'manifest destiny' belief, just like we are to the Americans. They have the collaboration of the US military and media to do it, and to spread the lies. It serves American aggression-for-oil purposes to have control of Israel.

Israel could not stand on its own, and certainly could not commit these atrocities ... war crimes ... without the complicity of the US government.

dub · January 16, 2009

The terms of 242 specifically say all parties must end their beligerance.

more excuses. israel continues to stall. they are stalling and you're excusing them.

As I have asked another poster... when exactly, since the state of Israel has formed, has there been any significant length of time (more than 2 or 3 years) when Israel was not either A: affected by terrorist attacks, or B: been under the threat of foreign military attacks?

this is nonesense. israel's settlement population continues to increase. there hasn't been a year that the settlements have gone down in population. not even the year that the gaza settlements were evacuated.

Irrelevant...
First of all, voting against allowing a Palestinian state when said state is likely to be used to launch terrorist attacks would be insane.

you're back to giving excuses for the stall.

Secondly, believe it or not Likud is not the only political party in the region. In fact, the Israeli government has gone on record (as I have illustrated earlier here) supporting a 2 state solution.
As I've already pointed out... when you have extremist Israelis, they tend to be marginalized by society and government. They hold little or no sway.

how is one of the major reasons for this conflict, the settlements, are still there when majority of israelis want them removed?

On the other hand, the 'extremist groups' in the Palestinian side are far from marginalized... in fact, they actually hold power.
Maybe you should spend some time watching the TV show Tommorow's Pioneers. That will certainly open your eyes to the difference in the way that the Palestinians deal with things and the way Israelis do.

Yet those groups do not run the country. Unlike Hamas, who actually runs the Gaza strip.

more nonsense. again, explain to me how the extremists don't have power in israel? explain to me why the settlers continue to increase in population when majority of israelis want the settlements to be removed because they know that would be a big step towards a fair and just peace? tell me why the settlers continue to increase in direct violation to bush's plan and in contrast to the misinformation you're trying to spread by saying the settlements have been decreasing and israel really, not leaving the occupied land because people have to stop fighting the occupation first.

you're a silly person.

Yes, I'm sure most Palestinians and Israelis would be quite happy with a 2 state solution. The problem is, they also continue to support an organization (Hamas) who, as their charter, seeks to destroy Israel. That would be the equivalent of a Canadian saying "I'm not racist, but I'll vote for the Heritage Front because I like their economic policy". Sorry, you vote for a party which holds bizarre, destructive policies, you should not be surprised when those policies end up causing problems.
In any sane political system, the voter will reject a party that has policies that, if acted on, would be detrimental to the citizens. Unfortunately, that hasn't yet happened in Gaza.

there you go trying to hide the fact that israel's government has always been controlled by extremist zealots. that's how israel was formed. these zealots, aka zionists, forced themselves into the territory.

oh wait, there was one prime minister who actually took action, although small, towards recognizing palestinians' rights, rather the usual lip service, and look what happened to him. RIP rabin.

oh no. there you go making excuses again. first of all, 9000 people were removed from gaza but at the same time, more than that amount have been moved into settlements in the west bank.

But Hamas (you know, the group that wants to destroy Israel) controls Gaza. If settlements were the only problem, the Gaza residents should already be happy.

what do you mean hamas control gaza? all the borders, the airspace, the sea, the economy is all controlled by israel. it has been since the 9000 settlers left. on top of that, look at the condition in the west bank and jerusalem. israel continues to annex land with the wall and the settlements. they've created cantons and have checkpoints. you think hamas or the gazans should be happy with that? you keep getting sillier with your ideas.

So while I may not totally approve of the Jewish settlements, at least there is some historical evidence that Israel is willing to dismantle settlements (even over the objections of its own citizens).

if you don't approve of them, then stop making excuses for them. let me use small numbers and you might understand. if you remove 9 settlers from gaza, and then add 18 settlers in the west bank, how is that improving the situation and showing that you're interested in resolving the issue?

Actually, three are a lot of people (including some PLO members) who said that the violence had been planned ever since Arafat left the peace talks during the summer.

okay. if you want to argue that sharon did not go to the temple mount in order to provoke, then go ahead and be silly.

that's not defending. perhaps israel should look into the condition that they've helped to create.

What, you mean the condition they helped to create by not allowing themselves to be pushed into the sea?

wow. you should have left that comment for the end. the ever so popular "pushed into the sea". your style of debate has reached an all time low. stop playing the victim. no one buys it.

Yet you point to those chapter 6 resolutions like they are somehow significant.
The fact that more Palestinians have been killed is not evidence of 'collective punishment'. The fact is, groups like Hamas engage in operations among civilian populations, and because of that, innocent people will die.

If Israel REALLY wanted to kill off the Palestinians, don't you think they could do a better job than just 300?

I believe that particular section also includes provisions that allow for safety and security. Preventing people from being killed by suicide bombers and/or rocket attacks would certainly fall under that.

You made the claim, you are responsible for providing evidence.

if you want to call the evidence that's right in front of everyone which has a strong smell of thousands of dead children and then claim that it smells like roses, then go for it.

the problem with most of your comments, is that they just don't add up. some may be gullible enough to buy the twist and turns, the half-truths because they have done 0 research on the area, but please don't assume that people who are here on this forum are uninformed enough to not catch that you're trying to propagate your ideals and agenda with lies. you know what though, you don't have to worry; you may not be good at this, but there are numerous people like pipes, kristol and dershowitz doing the dirty work.

Edited January 16, 2009 by dub

jbg · January 16, 2009

A Palestinian grows up with no real education, no job prospects so what is he supposed to do? He wants a job and a future but Israel makes sure he never has success.........If they worked to improve the lives of the Palestinians (instead of destroying them), they would end this trainwreck.

I totally agree with this post. But the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have gotten lots of aid that was supposed to accomplish this. It is them who used the money for armaments.

KeyStone · January 16, 2009

Whether Hamas actually fired the rockets themselves or others did it from within Gaza, as the governing body Hamas has a responsibility to control the area.

I've already indicated to you that Hamas reduced the rocket fire by 98%. They stopped firing rockets themselves, and they made an effort to stop others. While they do control much of Gaza, they are not the only actors. There are other groups who did not agree to the terms as well as dads who had children killed by the IDF and now have nothing to live for.

Instead of acknowledging this, you have claimed it is not enough. Israel did the same. Both actions tell me that you are not looking for peace - you are looking for excuses to continue with your settlements, occupation and barbaric treatment of the Palestinians.

Hypothetical situation... if the Toronto's Liberation Front started launching rocket attacks at Buffalo (not that anyone there would notice), it would be up to Canada to stop those attacks. If Canada chose not to, then the U.S. would not be blameless for taking matters into their own hands and stopping the attacks themselves.

Ok, but let's say that it's Canadian Arabs instead. Let's say that they start launching rockets and Canada is doing everything it can to stop them - including arresting those responsible, asking for witnesses, trying to cut off the supply of weapons. Now, the US would be blameless if it targeted those terrorists yes - but they would not be blameless if they killed thousands of innocent Canadians in the process. I think that's a no-brainer. We aren't going to sit back and say - well, we deserved that because we couldn't find the terrorists.

We recognize that until last week Hamas took efforts to halt rocket attacks by other groups as part of the June 19 ceasefire. However, throughout the ceasefire period other armed groups have continued to intermittently fire rockets from Gaza. As the governing authority in the Gaza Strip, it is your responsibility under international law to prevent such attacks, and to arrest and prosecute those who carry them out.

It's a fair assessment. They were taking steps towards that. But again, progress doesn't interest you - only excuses.

On July 10 at least three members of the Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were detained for firing rockets. All were later released however, and no charges were brought against them

So, you claim that Hamas was trying to stop rocket attacks during the cease fire. What exactly does it says about their 'attempts' to stop the attacks if they don't even lay charges against those firing the rockets?

I don't know the situation, maybe they had no proof. Maybe they promised not to do it again. If the latter, very irresponsible.

Oh, and by the way, at the time the cease fire was in effect, Israel had one if their soldiers held captive by Hamas. To me, holding hostages is not something that people do when they're trying to foster peace.

Oh, is that right? So, Israel doesn't have any Palestinian prisoners? (other than all of Palestine) No women or children in their jails?

Surely, you aren't complaining that Hamas had one SOLDIER? You expect Hamas to let him go so he can start killing women and children again, just like a good little IDF terrorist?

Sorry, but when 300 children are dead, I have a hard time crying about ONE IDF SOLDIER.

Oh, and by the way... you seem to keep suggesting that the cease fire fell apart only after Israel killed several Hamas members. Did you ever think that perhaps there was a reason? After all, there were reports that the Israeli attacks were the result of a tunnel uncovered at the Gaza/Israel border that was designed to assist in the kidnapping of Israeli solders. (Yes, I'm sure you'll be all apologetic and suggest Hamas would never do such a thing, and criticize the Israelis of spreading false information. But the fact that they have continued to old Gilad Shalit, without allowing him access to the Red Cross, suggests that such plans by Hamas are quite possible.)

Again, no proof. Israel can just do whatever they want and make up a reason after. Allegedly, there was a tunnel, and allegedly Israel just happened to know about it, and allegedly they were going to kidnap someone, and allegedly Israel just happened to intercept that conversation and allegedly Israel had no other way of dealing with it, and could not prepare themselves for the kidnapping attempt.

I've seen a few of the videos that go around on the Jewish mailing lists about the Arab culture. They both do the same things - the only difference is that the Arabs don't dominate the media enough to have hour long exposes on Jewish propaganda.

segnosaur · January 16, 2009

more excuses. israel continues to stall.

So, the fact that they don't want their citizens to be killed by rockets fired from people who want the destruction of Israel is considered stalling.

Why won't those evil Jooosss just role over and die?

this is nonesense. israel's settlement population continues to increase.

You still haven't answered the question... 242 indicates that all parties must cease 'belligerant' actions.

Once again... when has Israel ever had a period of 2 or 3 years when it has not been subject to either terrorist attacks and/or military threats.

there hasn't been a year that the settlements have gone down in population. not even the year that the gaza settlements were evacuated.

Not relevant to the question. 242 doesn't discus settlements. And even if it did, the section indicating that all parties must cease hostilities (which the Arab side has not done) negates that.

how is one of the major reasons for this conflict, the settlements, are still there when majority of israelis want them removed?

Not sure. I hope they do remove them.

But then, why did Palestinians vote in a party that has as their charter the desire to destroy Israel if the majority of Palistinians want peace and a 2 state solution?

more nonsense. again, explain to me how the extremists don't have power in israel?

Ummm... because they don't?

Because the government has actually come out and stated that they want a 2 state solution?

See: http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/2ee946874...33;OpenDocument

"There is a Palestinian state at the end of the process, but the terrorism must be dismantled," Livni stressed. "This is a step-by-step process but gives a political horizon."

Oh, and the fact that Israel doesn't want to see its citizens killed and is willing to take actions to protect them (including military actions) does not mean that they are extremist... only that they are committed to their own citizens.

Of course, Gaza is run by Hamas, which has (in its charter) the goal of destroying Israel.

So on one hand you have the Israeli government, who has said "we want a Palestinian state", and on the other hand you have Hamas, who sais "We don't want an Israeli state". Notice the little, ahem. problem there?

... you're trying to spread by saying the settlements have been decreasing...

Umm... no, that's a straw man. I never ever said that settlements (as a whole) have been decreasing.

I pointed out that they've been dismantled in Gaza (where the rocket attacks are originating from). And by pointing out their dismantiling of settlements in Gaza and the Sinai, I'm not suggesting that the population of the settlements has been decreasing, I'm saying that its likely that Israel will be willing to take necessary action to eliminate those settlements (or swap land with the Palestinians) when the time comes.

But Hamas (you know, the group that wants to destroy Israel) controls Gaza. If settlements were the only problem, the Gaza residents should already be happy.

what do you mean hamas control gaza? all the borders, the airspace, the sea, the economy is all controlled by israel.

Hamas was voted in during the 2006 election. Hamas controls much of the media in the Gaza strip. Hamas controls internal security, and much of the social system.

What, you mean the condition they helped to create by not allowing themselves to be pushed into the sea?

Hamas, as its charter, wants the desruction of Israel. As long as Israel exists, Hamas will want it destroyed. Its their reason for being, much as the KKK has white supremicy as its reason for being. The only way Hamas would be happy and NOT want violence is if Israel doesn't exist. Therefore, by that logic, Israel's provoking the situation simply by existing.

if you want to call the evidence that's right in front of everyone which has a strong smell of thousands of dead children and then claim that it smells like roses, then go for it.

thousands of dead children? The death toll on the Palestinian side is around 1000, and only a fraction of those are children.

Yes, those deaths are unfortunate. But exagerating the situation doesn't exactly make you seem like a reasonable person.

the problem with most of your comments, is that they just don't add up. some may be gullible enough to buy the twist and turns, the half-truths because they have done 0 research on the area, but please don't assume that people who are here on this forum are uninformed enough to not catch that you're trying to propagate your ideals and agenda with lies. you dont' have to worry, even though you're not very good at it, there are numerous people like pipes, kristol and dershowitz doing the dirty work.

I have never ever referred to the work of Pipes, Kristol or Dershowitz. I get my information right from mainstream sources. (Unlike the average palistinian supporter here who uses the web site 'jewsmustdie dot com' as some sort of holy grail of information.)

bush_cheney2004 · January 16, 2009

.....Now, the US would be blameless if it targeted those terrorists yes - but they would not be blameless if they killed thousands of innocent Canadians in the process. I think that's a no-brainer. We aren't going to sit back and say - well, we deserved that because we couldn't find the terrorists.

Doesn't matter.....the US would complete such an action to terminate the threat, regardless of the impact on "innocent" Canadians. Canada did the very same thing with CF-18's in 1999 (Operation Allied Force) and many "innocent" civilains died.

jbg · January 16, 2009

Now, that is a good point.
The other Arab nations seem to argue on behalf of Palestine, but they don't do much for them.

I think that for many of them, they might just use Palestine as a pawn to try to get the 'unclean Jews' out of the holy lands.

Seriously, thanks for being open-minded enough to acknowledge my point. If there is truly a Palestinian people, chunks should come off all of the countries in the area, not just Israel.

jbg · January 16, 2009

Very few bothered to take notice that the Jews died at the same rate as everyone else...

Actually, the Jews didn't because of their more advanced sanitation. That was one of the reasons they were blamed.

DogOnPorch · January 17, 2009

That might be true...not sure...however, the point is that the Pest didn't give a damn if you were Jewish or Christian. One thing we do know is that the spread of the Plague to Eastern Europe matches the Jews fleeing to the same area (Poland in particular where for centuries already, the Polish kings had given Jews a relatively safe place to live...right up until 1939.

------------------------------------------------------

We'll meet again.

Don't know where.

Don't know when.

---Vera Lynn

Edited January 17, 2009 by DogOnPorch

dub · January 17, 2009

So, the fact that they don't want their citizens to be killed by rockets fired from people who want the destruction of Israel is considered stalling.
Why won't those evil Jooosss just role over and die?

You still haven't answered the question... 242 indicates that all parties must cease 'belligerant' actions.

Once again... when has Israel ever had a period of 2 or 3 years when it has not been subject to either terrorist attacks and/or military threats.

Not relevant to the question. 242 doesn't discus settlements. And even if it did, the section indicating that all parties must cease hostilities (which the Arab side has not done) negates that.

Not sure. I hope they do remove them.

But then, why did Palestinians vote in a party that has as their charter the desire to destroy Israel if the majority of Palistinians want peace and a 2 state solution?

Ummm... because they don't?

Because the government has actually come out and stated that they want a 2 state solution?

See: http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/2ee946874...33;OpenDocument

"There is a Palestinian state at the end of the process, but the terrorism must be dismantled," Livni stressed. "This is a step-by-step process but gives a political horizon."

Oh, and the fact that Israel doesn't want to see its citizens killed and is willing to take actions to protect them (including military actions) does not mean that they are extremist... only that they are committed to their own citizens.

Of course, Gaza is run by Hamas, which has (in its charter) the goal of destroying Israel.

So on one hand you have the Israeli government, who has said "we want a Palestinian state", and on the other hand you have Hamas, who sais "We don't want an Israeli state". Notice the little, ahem. problem there?

Umm... no, that's a straw man. I never ever said that settlements (as a whole) have been decreasing.

I pointed out that they've been dismantled in Gaza (where the rocket attacks are originating from). And by pointing out their dismantiling of settlements in Gaza and the Sinai, I'm not suggesting that the population of the settlements has been decreasing, I'm saying that its likely that Israel will be willing to take necessary action to eliminate those settlements (or swap land with the Palestinians) when the time comes.

what do you mean hamas control gaza? all the borders, the airspace, the sea, the economy is all controlled by israel.

Hamas was voted in during the 2006 election. Hamas controls much of the media in the Gaza strip. Hamas controls internal security, and much of the social system.

Hamas, as its charter, wants the desruction of Israel. As long as Israel exists, Hamas will want it destroyed. Its their reason for being, much as the KKK has white supremicy as its reason for being. The only way Hamas would be happy and NOT want violence is if Israel doesn't exist. Therefore, by that logic, Israel's provoking the situation simply by existing.

thousands of dead children? The death toll on the Palestinian side is around 1000, and only a fraction of those are children.

Yes, those deaths are unfortunate. But exagerating the situation doesn't exactly make you seem like a reasonable person.

I have never ever referred to the work of Pipes, Kristol or Dershowitz. I get my information right from mainstream sources. (Unlike the average palistinian supporter here who uses the web site 'jewsmustdie dot com' as some sort of holy grail of information.)

"joooose"

"push into the sea"

"jewsmustdie dot com"

you're becoming more and more immature in this debate with your accusations of anti-semitism and playing the victim card. quit acting like a pathetic little victim.

#1 - when i mentioned that thousands of palestinian children have died, i was referring to the children who have been killed by the IDF and the extremist israeli settlers, under the occupation.

#2 - 242 doesn't talk about the settlements? wtf?

#3 - before hamas, there was the PLO and arafat who accepted israel and were committed to a 2state solution

#4 - israel says a lot of things but does something else. it's the way the israeli government has worked for a long time. while an israeli government official says we want a palestinian state and peace, they're giving the go ahead to build more settlements in the west bank and jerusalem. in most people's world including mine, that's called lying. while another israeli government official says they want a palestinian state, they're voting against to ever allow a palestinian state. such is the case for almost all of the major parties in the knesset, like the likud and the right wing ultra orthodox parties, where they've vowed to never allow a palestinian state. so stop fucking around and admit it.

#5 - israel has been and will use any excuse not to create a palestinian state according to the law. they have been making excuses for over 40 years while continuing to increase the settlements and annexing more palestinian land. you seem to think there is nothing wrong with that.

stop wasting my time with bullshit rhetoric and be honest in your debating.

Argus · January 18, 2009

The poster here is speaking of an Israeli killed by a Palestinian.
In reality:

13 (THIRTEEN!!!) Israeli's have died in this latest go-round.

900 (NINE HUNDRED!!!) Palestians have died in this lastest go-round.

No wonder the Palestinians keep lobbing their antiquated rockets that never hit anything. They are rightfully pissed.

Anyone in their right mind should realize this.

You are blaming the Israelis for being bettter organized and equipped than terrorists? In some battles in Korea and the Second World War, the allies lost only a few dozen people while the enemy lost thousands. By your standards this would be grossly unfair and ought to cause you to side with the Japanese or the Nazis or whatever.

Argus · January 18, 2009

Well, first of all, I concede that there are people who hate Jews.
And it is possible that they used the rally as an excuse for Jew-hating.

That does not mean that the majority feel this way, or that the Aryan Guard was supported or encouraged in any way.

In fact, given the fact that there are no pictures, I think it's a safe guess that members of the Aryan Guard who participated were not visible racists. Because, believe me, if they were visible, we'd be seeings lots of photos.

So, all we have is a writer from the staunchly pro-Israeli National Post stating that racists were in attendance.

Big whoop. The organizer of the rally said he told them he didn't want them there.

The organizer of the rally said that with a shrug. But the interesting thing is that these people would never tolerate those they really don't like - as witness how they treated that guy who was pro-Israeli. Why weren't the Aryan Guard subjected to such tactics to force them away? Why no shoes thrown at them? What other group would allow the Aryan Guard to walk alongside them in any kind of demo or protest without cracking their heads?

Fact is, if you reall looked into the heart of many of those at these kinds of protests you'd find a majority hated Jews.

Argus · January 18, 2009

You know what, the US arms Israel, the rest of the Middle-East arms Hamas, what so people expect going to happen. There citizens are both sides that just want peace so why not make it illegal to give or sell arms to these two groups?? Have the leader fight it out and save young kids lives!

Israel is a state, and bound by the rules of states. Israel has not attacked anyone with these weapons in my memory - save those who attack Israel. Hamas is a terrorist agency which deliberately attacks civilians. It is not defending anyone. On the contrary, it draws attacks down on civilians. If Hamas did not exist, if there were no weapons turned against the Israelis, they would have no excuse for the laws and rules and processes in place which make life so hard on Palestinians. The wall would never have gone up, and there would be few impediments to the movement of people or goods. Terrorism and violence has done nothing but destroy the lives of Palestinians.