betsy Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Word of Honour? Ha!. Reminds me of when I signed up in the Navy. "I guarantee you a cruise around the world within a year" the recruiter said. I replied "Gimmee your pen". Word of Honour dont mean crap. Ahhhh...the plot thickens. A disgruntled ex-sailor. Did you desert the navy, btw? As for contracts; Any contract that requires the parties to engage in illegal actions is no longer a valid contract. And what is this so-called "illegal" in this war? Quote
betsy Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Quite so. Any state entering into armed conflict spends huge amounts of time and effort convincing the citizenry of the justness of the war. And they will do so even if its unjust. So best not rely on the government to determine justness or unjustness - The state will lie. Unjust - depending on whose side you're on, I presume? Quote
Peter F Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Ahhhh...the plot thickens. A disgruntled ex-sailor. Did you desert the navy, btw? No I did not. But there was a time in Aukland NZ when I came very very close to doing such. Very close. But after some sober second thought I realized that it wouldn't do me any good to desert in NZ. So no I did not desert. However, if they had have decided to extend my 5 year enlistment, as they were legally allowed to do, I like to think I would most certainly have refused to serve. And what is this so-called "illegal" in this war? Ask the refuseniks War Resisters Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 I am not making it up at all. Stop-Loss, while perfectly legal and written into the contract, nevertheless compels folks to continue to serve or be imprisoned. That is no different than being drafted. So it would seem that you have a problem with contract law in general....or just in the case of American deserters? Draft dodgers are not deserters.... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Muddy Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Word of Honour? Ha!. Reminds me of when I signed up in the Navy. "I guarantee you a cruise around the world within a year" the recruiter said. I replied "Gimmee your pen". Word of Honour dont mean crap. As for contracts; Any contract that requires the parties to engage in illegal actions is no longer a valid contract. [/quote I don`t know what Navy you served in or what kind of vessel ,but I wonder if you would have hesitated to fire when ordered too or would you have asked to see the Captain first? I mean after all you would want to make sure it was a just cause and legal order would you not? What a way to run a military eh? In a democracy we the people vote in our Presidents ,Prime Ministers and we willingly give the command of our military, and as long as it is a volunteer military we have made a contract to obey. We only question orders if we are told to commit a war crime. It is not a political debating society. Quote
Peter F Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Unjust - depending on whose side you're on, I presume? Nope. Depending upon the actual circumstances. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Peter F Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 I don`t know what Navy you served in or what kind of vessel ,but I wonder if you would have hesitated to fire when ordered too or would you have asked to see the Captain first? I mean after all you would want to make sure it was a just cause and legal order would you not? What a way to run a military eh? In a democracy we the people vote in our Presidents ,Prime Ministers and we willingly give the command of our military, and as long as it is a volunteer military we have made a contract to obey. We only question orders if we are told to commit a war crime. It is not a political debating society. We only question orders if we are told to commit a war crime. Absolutely. And if we should believe we are committing a war crime by folliwing orders then the order should not be followed. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Peter F Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 So it would seem that you have a problem with contract law in general....or just in the case of American deserters?Draft dodgers are not deserters.... True, draft dodgers are not deserters - but serve time just like the deserters. So many draft dodgers sought and were granted refuge in Canada. As for contract law, there is no contract that can't be broken. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Muddy Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 We only question orders if we are told to commit a war crime. Absolutely. And if we should believe we are committing a war crime by folliwing orders then the order should not be followed. Then if you think your committing a war crime and your ethical why would you not stay and fight a courts marshal? Why run away? In our democracies the penalties are not that harsh! A few months in jail and your reunited with family and free to pursue your life in a free country . Why run away, there by branding yourself and penalizing not only yourself ,but also your family? Quote
Peter F Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Then if you think your committing a war crime and your ethical why would you not stay and fight a courts marshal? Why run away? In our democracies the penalties are not that harsh! A few months in jail and your reunited with family and free to pursue your life in a free country . Why run away, there by branding yourself and penalizing not only yourself ,but also your family? I don't know, Muddy. Six of one or half a dozen of the other. Perhaps the deserters thought a refugee board would be more likely to seriiously consider thier case while a courts martial would not. The aim being - wether through a courts martial or refugee board - to avoid the prison sentence that none of them think they deserve. As for them and thier families being branded and penalized for thier actions - The act of refusing to comply has them branded already, long before the courts martials or refugee boards decisions. I doubt the branding carries much wieght for them - nor me for that matter. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
M.Dancer Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 the Canadian military does not recognize it’s active members, those seeking conscientious objector status, as “law breakers”, as “oath breakers” (your terms) – and yet you would so label the American Iraq war resisters. First off, these are Americans, not canadians.... Secondly, these aren't people who have asked to be releases, they deserted, therefore they are law breakers.. and finally if they were Canadians, the canadian position would not apply to them An objection based primarily on one or more of the following does not permit voluntary release on the basis of a conscientious objection:participation or use of arms in a particular conflict or operation; national policy; personal expediency; or political beliefs. Performance of Duties To be a CO you must be opposed to war, not just the Iraq war....it would seem that someone who willingly volunteers to join an armed force would have a hard time convincing a board they are opposed to ALL WAR... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Oleg Bach Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Watching an extradition hearing at the court of appeal in Toronto - I saw them (judges) coldly send back a former original trade delegate for China and who was also a former Enron insider ----who knew a little to much about who really plundered the lions share of the company holdings. What I noticed and that I knew about these judges who were operating on a strick arbitrary policy - Judges that were appointed by our old and high buisness elite - who like little lackys are more than helpful when dealing with renegade Americans who escape the elite mafia and come to Canada to seek santuary that they will never get. What takes place is that the judicary in Canada is instructed to appease the high flying crooks in the states - when a war resister high tails it into Canada because they are good and refuse to do the wrong thing - we here in Canada punish the resister for doing what is morally correct and socially right - It's pitiful when the scenario consists of a very tacit agreement between the American polical mobsters who say --"Hey Canada - we oppress and lie and kill for profit - we do it on an international scale with the assistance of over 300 million duped tax paying American citizens ----so send back that person being good - so we can show the good people that us evil sons of bitches rule the roost ...That's the truth..war resisters are punished by our judges for being GOOD -- now that's perverse! Quote
M.Dancer Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 some of these American war resisters have attempted to seek conscientious objector status in their American military - some have attempted to seek non-combat assignments while staying in the American military. Of course, their requests have been denied. Again, non of these deserters would qualify under the canadians rules. Objecting to a particular war does not count. Objecting for polictical reasons does not count. But thanks for linking to the document that shows, the deserters don't count... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Oleg Bach Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Again, non of these deserters would qualify under the canadians rules. Objecting to a particular war does not count. Objecting for polictical reasons does not count.But thanks for linking to the document that shows, the deserters don't count... Boy you sure like to pull the party line! So what does count? Cheney and Rove and that twitter stick president created and elaborate ruse....put it this way - Once as a kid one of my mothers boarders came running into the house bloodied head to toe - he said he was attacked by a guy with a bat...so my brothers and I went to avenge the savage beating ------------------I HAD MY NOSE BROKEN....Then I found out later that the bloodied boarder was caught stripping this guys motor cycle - He lied to me and because I believed him I now have one nostril that does not work very well..Just because some one realized that they were lied to and they take counter measures to escape the effects of the lie does not make them crimminals ...Canada should have set a moral example and protected the war resisters....but of course all of you are "just taking orders" - from America - and fear economic sanctions if you do what is right - so your money is more important than your fellow man? Quote
Keepitsimple Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Let's ask our Canadian soldiers what we should do with soldiers from the US - who willingly and voluntarily sign up to join the armed forces - and then run away to another country. They should best be judged by their peers. These "resisters" claim that Iraq is an unjust war......for heaven's sake, the Liberal media has been flaying Bush for the last 8 years....and these convenient refugees are just discovering their conviction now? Any solace given to these cowards are a slap in the face to our own military. Edited January 16, 2009 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
Oleg Bach Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Let's ask our Canadian soldiers what we should do with soldiers from the US - who willingly and voluntarily sign up to join the armed forces - and then run away to another country. They should best be judged by their peers. These "resisters" claim that Iraq is an unjust war......for heaven's sake, the Liberal media has been flaying Bush for the last 8 years....and these convenient refugees are just discovering their conviction now? Any solace given to these cowards are a slap in the face to our own military. Canadian service men are not the peers of American service men. We are independent are we not? The tern "unjust war" is a weak and infective bit of rhetoric at this time - Bush and the boys are like Nero of ancient Rome - Cheney Rove and Bush are insane..and their supporters are actually nuts also - The real premise here is , do you do the bidding of a crazy man? Just because someone has been installed into the most highest office does not negate that installation from being mentally ill. WE believe that it's impossible for a rich and privledged person who becomes President to be crazy ---- the proof is not clear for all thinking people that Bush and his croonies are not well...That's the reality..but like dogs we worship the big dog even though it is rabbid . The MARSHAL CLASS is noble and do their duty - but once in a while we get a commander in chief that fiddles as America burns ----what are we to do - say "The King Is not insane" - time to face reality ...Bush is and was crazy. You don't sacrafice men and woman to the god of lunacy. Quote
Alta4ever Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 True, draft dodgers are not deserters - but serve time just like the deserters. So many draft dodgers sought and were granted refuge in Canada. As for contract law, there is no contract that can't be broken. Their is always a penalty for breaking a contract and in this case its a miltary Jail for a couple of years. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Oleg Bach Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Their is always a penalty for breaking a contract and in this case its a miltary Jail for a couple of years. Contracts have to be done with equity and good faith...This is the classic "unconsionable contract" - It is illegal in every way to draft a contract that is one sided - by definition the contract has to provide a bond that consists of two equal sides. Now - when a less educated person or one that is in a weakened state socially or economically signs a contract with a person that is shrewed and more sophisticated or in a postion of power that is total - then that contract is void - Those that signed up to serve Bush did not have a clue that the man - the commander in chief was a thief a liar and a plundering scoundrel. Quote
Peter F Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Their is always a penalty for breaking a contract and in this case its a miltary Jail for a couple of years. Sure...if they can be caught. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Alta4ever Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Sure...if they can be caught. We have no right to protect these people they are not facing death or persecution they are facing a legal court martial for deserting. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Alta4ever Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Contracts have to be done with equity and good faith...This is the classic "unconsionable contract" - It is illegal in every way to draft a contract that is one sided - by definition the contract has to provide a bond that consists of two equal sides. Now - when a less educated person or one that is in a weakened state socially or economically signs a contract with a person that is shrewed and more sophisticated or in a postion of power that is total - then that contract is void - Those that signed up to serve Bush did not have a clue that the man - the commander in chief was a thief a liar and a plundering scoundrel. Funny they didn't sign a contract with bush, they signed a contract with the American people. Do you have proof of what you allege otherwise what you are saying liable. Are you as educated as the loans officer when you sign your morgage? Do you know as much about what you are entering into? Should these contracts stand? Quit the bleeding heart boo hooing. On Jan 21 Obama will be president, troops will still be required to serve in I raq, he has been talking about increasing troop levels afganistan. So is he now lying plundering scoundrel? I doubt it. They will still have the same recruiters and those who enlist will still have the same obligations that they have now. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Oleg Bach Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 We have no right to protect these people they are not facing death or persecution they are facing a legal court martial for deserting. Why is it so important to continue to protect and support the status quo in Canada and America, when it has been shown that the current state of affairs is corrupt? Do you all really think by being loyal to the corrupt that some how a few crumbs will fall from the masters table and you will eat? All corruption eventually becomes so disorderly that it collapses. Here is the crux - the proverbial slippery slope - IF we do not give protection to those of good moral mind ....and send them back to be punished for being good - THEN it is just a matter of time when the liars and culprits that prosecuted a fraudulent war will in time come for you...When the powers that be notice that you do not protect the good and are not loyal to goodness .....then they lose all respect for you kiss asses - and in time they will come for your children to serve as henchmen - and then it will be to late. Quote
Muddy Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 Why is it so important to continue to protect and support the status quo in Canada and America, when it has been shown that the current state of affairs is corrupt? Do you all really think by being loyal to the corrupt that some how a few crumbs will fall from the masters table and you will eat? All corruption eventually becomes so disorderly that it collapses. Here is the crux - the proverbial slippery slope - IF we do not give protection to those of good moral mind ....and send them back to be punished for being good - THEN it is just a matter of time when the liars and culprits that prosecuted a fraudulent war will in time come for you...When the powers that be notice that you do not protect the good and are not loyal to goodness .....then they lose all respect for you kiss asses - and in time they will come for your children to serve as henchmen - and then it will be to late. [/quote Thats just silly. No one is beyond the law and for those who of their own free will who join a nations military especially when it is at war and then desert should be held in contempt. They are definately not hero like in their action. They made a contract to their country and have reneged. They will not be hung and drawn and quartered . They will do less time than a common thief. By running away from justice they show they are not of the finest character. If they feel so strongly that the predicament they have willingly got themselves in, is immoral then too bloody bad. Do the time.Don`t run away like cowards. Quote
Alta4ever Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Why is it so important to continue to protect and support the status quo in Canada and America, when it has been shown that the current state of affairs is corrupt? Do you all really think by being loyal to the corrupt that some how a few crumbs will fall from the masters table and you will eat? All corruption eventually becomes so disorderly that it collapses. Here is the crux - the proverbial slippery slope - IF we do not give protection to those of good moral mind ....and send them back to be punished for being good - THEN it is just a matter of time when the liars and culprits that prosecuted a fraudulent war will in time come for you...When the powers that be notice that you do not protect the good and are not loyal to goodness .....then they lose all respect for you kiss asses - and in time they will come for your children to serve as henchmen - and then it will be to late. Good moral mind? If they were of good moral mind they would fulfill their moral and contractual obligations. These people have not been good citzens of their country as they have taken advantage of their country. A war is a war it can't fraudulent, it may not be war you support but it is not fraudulent. The people who got America into the war were operating on the knowelege that they had at the time. JUst because their are some smarmy smug self obessed individuals like yourself that don't respect the law of other nations because you think that you are so morally superior doesn't make you right, or give you the right to act as you do. The people of the US created these laws it is not for US to judge their democracy. Int he US not since the sixties no one has come to make our children serve. Your perception of reality is flawed. Edited January 16, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Riverwind Posted January 16, 2009 Report Posted January 16, 2009 (edited) Ask the refuseniksAs I said before - there is no such thing as a legal or just war according to the standards of people like "taliban jack" on up. So it does not make a difference what excuses they came with to claim that this particular war is unjust or illegal. The signed up and are now trying to weasel out their obligations. More importantly, soldiers are not qualified to pass judgement on the war in general. They are only qualified to pass judgement on specific orders given to them (i.e. kill this unarmed civilian). In that case they would have a duty to refuse the order - but not in other circumstances. Edited January 16, 2009 by Riverwind Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
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