ToadBrother Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 So says the polls...and the failed referendums. Every country has different groups on different areas that vote different ways and want different things. You should see the way that the American posters on a car site that I visit refer to California and to a lesser extent New York. To say that Confederation is a failure because we have different wants and needs is rather stupid really. No one said that a country has to be a homogeneous group....and this one certainly never was. Anybody who thinks Canada has regional political problems should look at Belgium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Once again, my model is critiqued and my point ignored. I don't agree with your model. Canada isn't failing, Confederation isn't failing (and to the lesser point of your example, Canadian health care is actually getting better now that funding has been restored.) Yes, people in Ontario vote different than people in Alberta. Yes, people in Alberta vote different than people in Quebec, yes, they all want different things.....but so what? That's why we have a system with strong provincial governments so that each group of people can have most of what they want...there are simply certain things that they have to do and certain guidelines that they need to follow. Canada has worked this way for over 140 years and it continues to do so to this day...it will continue to do so into the future. I wouldn't for a minute ever subscribe to the idea that we should give up because it's hard sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) I wouldn't for a minute ever subscribe to the idea that we should give up because it's hard sometimes. Quebec, where France left off, still fights the 'War on the Plains of Abraham' on paper. The ROC has been forced to become a SLAVE to traitor Quebec ideologies via corrupt, dysfunctional government. If that is not a good enough idea to give up, I really don't what is. Edited April 30, 2009 by Leafless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I'm not going to argue with your alternative reality...I've had enough of that already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I'm not going to argue with your alternative reality...I've had enough of that already. Dream on. You pink Liberals are all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 I don't agree with your model. Canada isn't failing, Confederation isn't failing (and to the lesser point of your example, Canadian health care is actually getting better now that funding has been restored.)Yes, people in Ontario vote different than people in Alberta. Yes, people in Alberta vote different than people in Quebec, yes, they all want different things.....but so what? That's why we have a system with strong provincial governments so that each group of people can have most of what they want...there are simply certain things that they have to do and certain guidelines that they need to follow. Canada has worked this way for over 140 years and it continues to do so to this day...it will continue to do so into the future. I wouldn't for a minute ever subscribe to the idea that we should give up because it's hard sometimes. But that's precisely my point! I don't believe that regionalism has ever been as high as it is today! Has there ever been a period in our history where the Liberals have been so shut out of the West, for so long? When's the last time the Conservatives have had any significant representation in Quebec? If such a situation goes on for too long it inevitably starts to fuel the fires of separatism. Why not? Who wants to belong to a club where you or your neighbours can NEVER be club president? The West finally, after DECADES, got one of their own as PM and almost immediately faced a coalition that would have chucked him out! If the Liberals again become the "natural governing party" what's the chances that their leader(PM) will be from anywhere but Quebec? Why should Anglo Canada put up with that forever? For that matter, if a strong Conservative leadership candidate arose in la Belle Province, how fast do you think he'd be made party leader in order to garner those Quebec votes? How much chance did John Crosbie ever have of becoming PM? We've been told FOR GENERATiONS that not only are these points not true but that they either don't matter or that they are "the price we pay for unity!". Nobody seriously believes it. These are just the excuses used by politicians to excuse their expediency. It's beginning to wear a bit thin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) If the Liberals again become the "natural governing party" what's the chances that their leader(PM) will be from anywhere but Quebec? Why should Anglo Canada put up with that forever? Ummm....it seems that many Canadians, from coast to coast like Ignatieff (including a large number in Alberta)...and he is from Ontario....and he's even Russian. There's no reason to think that The Liberals won't increase support in the west the time also. The Conservatives also have support across the country..as do the NDP and Green Party....Canada's not nearly so divided as you make out. Edited April 30, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Based on the way you're feeling though, it seems that you should be pushing for PR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Ummm....it seems that many Canadians, from coast to coast like Ignatieff (including a large number in Alberta)...and he is from Ontario....and he's even Russian. There's no reason to think that The Liberals won't increase support in the west the time also. Ummm....where is the large number in Alberta? The Liberals only stand a chance in two ridings (both in Edmonton). Landslide Annie's old home, and David Kilgour's immigrant-rich Millwoods riding. Both are now Conservative. The poll found the prime minister's support was highest in Alberta (70 per cent favourable, 16 per cent unfavourable) and lowest in Quebec (28 per cent favourable, 60 per cent unfavourable). CTV Alberta - 55% Conservative, 19% Liberal, 14% Green Party, 10% NDP Manitoba and Saskatchewan - 46% Conservative, 23% Liberal, 16% NDP, 11% Green Party Harris Decima Where is the large number in the West? Not seeing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Common sense and a distaste for the unneeded. You think the right to marry your partner is unneeded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) Ummm....where is the large number in Alberta? So you consider almost 20% of Alberta voters to be a small amount? It is certainly not as large as the Conservative numbers, but its not an insignificant amount of people. The Liberals will return to the west with more seats...whether or not they will return to Alberta, I don't know, we'll have to wait and see. Edited April 30, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Also, when you consider that 10% of the population vote NDP and 14% Green, Alberta doesn't seem so right wing anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Anybody who thinks Canada has regional political problems should look at Belgium. As a matter of fact, "economist" Stephen Harper has looked at Belgium and concluded that we should model the Canadian federation after Belgium: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/10/20/harper041020.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 You think the right to marry your partner is unneeded? Which is a provinicial jurisdiction which requires the federal government to use the notwithstanding clause to over turn, something Harper has said on record he would not use. This has been affirmed by Parliament. http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Sites/LOP/Legislati...8#b1divisiontxt So feel free to have a simply fabulous wedding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Which is a provinicial jurisdiction which requires the federal government to use the notwithstanding clause to over turn, something Harper has said on record he would not use. And Harper has never broken a promise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 But that's precisely my point! I don't believe that regionalism has ever been as high as it is today!Has there ever been a period in our history where the Liberals have been so shut out of the West, for so long? When's the last time the Conservatives have had any significant representation in Quebec? If such a situation goes on for too long it inevitably starts to fuel the fires of separatism. Why not? Who wants to belong to a club where you or your neighbours can NEVER be club president? The West finally, after DECADES, got one of their own as PM and almost immediately faced a coalition that would have chucked him out! If the Liberals again become the "natural governing party" what's the chances that their leader(PM) will be from anywhere but Quebec? Why should Anglo Canada put up with that forever? For that matter, if a strong Conservative leadership candidate arose in la Belle Province, how fast do you think he'd be made party leader in order to garner those Quebec votes? How much chance did John Crosbie ever have of becoming PM? We've been told FOR GENERATiONS that not only are these points not true but that they either don't matter or that they are "the price we pay for unity!". Nobody seriously believes it. These are just the excuses used by politicians to excuse their expediency. It's beginning to wear a bit thin. Bill... out of our last 10 PM's, 4 came from PQ, 1 from Ontario (Lester Pearson), 1 from Sask, two from BC and two, including the present one, from Alberta. I wouldn't exactly call that being shut out. Regionalism is running high... but I don't see that as translating into anyone facing the prospect of 'never being club president'... and our next Prime Minister will be from Toronto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 And Harper has never broken a promise... Well as long as the facts we are dealing with are your irrational fears and hypothetical situations not likely to arrise... ...be sure to get a good accordion player for the wedding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Well as long as the facts we are dealing with are your irrational fears and hypothetical situations not likely to arrise... ...income trusts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) Bill... out of our last 10 PM's, 4 came from PQ, 1 from Ontario (Lester Pearson), 1 from Sask, two from BC and two, including the present one, from Alberta. I wouldn't exactly call that being shut out. Regionalism is running high... but I don't see that as translating into anyone facing the prospect of 'never being club president'... and our next Prime Minister will be from Toronto. You're giving the 'lawyer's argument", Molly. The one that politicians use. Counting back to Pearson, how many years has it been and how many of those years were filled by a PM that came from Quebec? Please don't count Kim Campbell. She was never elected. She just took over the helm for a few days until she got turfed! Technically you're correct but most folks don't really care that things were more balanced before the Early Pleistocene Era. The next PM will be from Toronto? Damme but you're cruel! I don't care if he's a Liberal but to have someone from a self-indulgent greedy city like Toronto is just rubbing salt in the wounds... Edited May 1, 2009 by Wild Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normanchateau Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 The West finally, after DECADES, got one of their own as PM and almost immediately faced a coalition that would have chucked him out! I'm from the West and I want him chucked out. What the hell has Harper done for the West anyway other than giving our money away? I don't consider transferring to Quebec billions of dollars extracted from natural resources in the West as doing something for the West. If this wealth transfer had occurred under a different PM, Westerners would be outraged. The transfer of wealth to Quebec in the 2007 budget, which increased annually by billions of dollars, is something the West is still paying for, and will pay next year, and the year after... It seems to me that Harper has not only done nothing for the West but knows that he can continue to do nothing for the West and the West will continue to vote for him merely because he's from the West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 ...income trusts... Is this how the radical left's mind works? That the decision by Flaherty to end the tax loophole was influenced by Harper's evangelical religous beliefs? My god the conspiracy theories are so web like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I'm from the West and I want him chucked out. What the hell has Harper done for the West anyway other than giving our money away? I don't consider transferring to Quebec billions of dollars extracted from natural resources in the West as doing something for the West. If this wealth transfer had occurred under a different PM, Westerners would be outraged. The transfer of wealth to Quebec in the 2007 budget, which increased annually by billions of dollars, is something the West is still paying for, and will pay next year, and the year after... It seems to me that Harper has not only done nothing for the West but knows that he can continue to do nothing for the West and the West will continue to vote for him merely because he's from the West. Weird. Me and norman agree. Except the last point. Harper was from Toronto, not the west. (he's not an Albertan, but he's played one on tv) Harper will get the vote out west, not because he's "from" here, but because he's not a Liberal. End of story. If Harper was running for the Liberals against a Conservative leader from Kwebek, he would lose out here. If JFK were alive and running for the Liberals, he wouldn't get the vote out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Except the last point. Harper was from Toronto, not the west. (he's not an Albertan, but he's played one on tv) Harper will get the vote out west, not because he's "from" here, but because he's not a Liberal. End of story. So there is two tiers of Albertans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 There's a hell of a lot more than just two tiers of Albertans these days. The point is, Harper has done nothing of consequence for Alberta since being in power. Nobody really expected him to. The reality of the Canadian political system is that, once elected, politicians must do whatever they can to stay in the good graces of Kwebek and Ontario. The rest don't matter (except the east coast - they'll vote for whomever gives them the most money). The ONLY reason Harper gets votes out here is because he's not Liberal. NDP and Green aren't even worth mentioning in Alberta, with the exception of the single NDP riding which is at the University of Alberta (it's a protest vote by people who don't pay taxes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 The ONLY reason Harper gets votes out here is because he's not Liberal. Now if only stunned Ontarians would use the same logic the country might be lead out of the culture club mode and return to a more normalized state. Quebecers traditonally vote Liberal/Bloc 'en masse' to get their way, so the rest of the country should vote Conservative 'en masse' to give the Conservatives the majority they need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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