Kitchener Posted January 2, 2009 Report Posted January 2, 2009 Of course. Medical staff and other carers for the sick and wounded, especially when they're civil servants of a democratically elected authority, are terrorists who can be killed out of hand. It's obvious to any staunch supporter of democracy, civilization, and decency. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 2, 2009 Report Posted January 2, 2009 Of course. Medical staff and other carers for the sick and wounded, especially when they're civil servants of a democratically elected authority, are terrorists who can be killed out of hand. It's obvious to any staunch supporter of democracy, civilization, and decency. Here's a test. How did HAMAS get into power. Show your work. -------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Kitchener Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 Explain how an ambulance organizer counts as a terrorist. Show your work. Indeed, do. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 The director of ambulance services: clearly a notorious merchant of terror! For all we know we are being fed more Pallywood BS. There are no non-Palestinian "reporters" in Gaza. So sure...baby milk factories are dropping like flies as are kindergartens. ----------------------------------- Achhhhh, why do I bother? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 So you aren't aware that Abbas won the presidential election. HAMAS won Gaza's municiple elections and since they figured Fatah wasn't violent enough towards Israel, they seized power and killed all the Fatah supporters. Hey...democracy in action. Notice how the West Bank isn't being bombed. ---------------------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Kitchener Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 For all we know we are being fed more Pallywood BS. There are no non-Palestinian "reporters" in Gaza. Israel denies access to foreign reporters, then tries to demand controls even when its supreme court orders this censorship to end. You agree to doubt any news that comes out of Gaza as a result. Any pretext is sufficient, I guess, for a sufficiently abject dupe. Quote
Kitchener Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 So you aren't aware that Abbas won the presidential election. Not only am I aware of it; I'm quite clear on its complete irrelevance to the fact the that director of ambulance services is a civil servant under the party that won the 2006 elections. Any other daft red herrings you'd like to try? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) No need to wonder; for historical reasons I'm very pro-Israel despite of my family's checkered past re: The Holocaust. When I see the HAMAS giving the Nazi salute, my mind is already made-up. Maybe Nazis are OK with you...but not me. ----------------------------- When pigs fly. Edited January 3, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Kitchener Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 Any other daft red herrings you'd like to try? No need to wonder... You got that right. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 Well, tell you what. You and I have no problem until you start lobbing rockets. Peace. --------------------------------- When pigs fly. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Kitchener Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) For all we know we are being fed more Pallywood BS. There are no non-Palestinian "reporters" in Gaza. So sure...baby milk factories are dropping like flies as are kindergartens. For instance. Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its version has been seriously challenged. The incident raises the question of how to interpret video taken from the air.Israel released video of an air attack on 28 December, which appeared to show rockets being loaded onto a truck. The truck and those close to it were then destroyed by a missile. This was clear evidence, the Israelis said, of how accurate their strikes were and how well justified. A special unit it has set up to coordinate its informational plan put the video onto YouTube as part of its effort to use modern means of communications to get Israel's case across. The YouTube video has a large caption on it saying "Grad missiles being loaded onto the Hamas vehicle." As of Saturday morning UK time, more than 260,000 people had watched it. It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop. This workshop had been damaged when a building next door was bombed by the Israelis and he was afraid of looters, he said. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem put Mr Sanur's account on its website, together with a photograph of burned out oxygen cylinders. Mr Sanur said that eight people, one of them his son, had been killed. He subsequently told the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "These were not Hamas, they were our children... They were not Grad missiles.". The Israeli response was that the "materiel" was being taken from a site that had stored weapons. The video remains on You Tube. But the incident shows how an apparently definitive piece of video can turn into something much more doubtful... The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims. The first is to justify the air attacks. The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza. Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds. Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect. It has also allowed trucks in with food aid and has stressed that it will not let people starve, even if they go short. Israel appears to think its efforts are working. One of its spokespeople, who has regularly appeared on the international media, Major Avital Leibovich, said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel." Israel has bolstered its approach by banning foreign correspondents from Gaza, despite a ruling from the Israeli Supreme Court. The Arab television news channel Al Jazeera is operating there and its reports have been graphic and have affected opinion across the Arab world. The BBC also has its local bureau hard at work. But the absence of reporters from major organisations has meant, for example, that Mr Samur's story has not been as widely told as it probably would have been, or his account subject to an on-the-spot examination. Meanwhile Israel has received good coverage of the threats and damage to its own towns and communities. Profession of faith that BBC, grieving father, photographic evidence, and Israeli group B'Tselem are all terrorists/unreliable/pro-Nazi in 5, 4, 3... Edited January 3, 2009 by Kitchener Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 For instance.Profession of faith that BBC, grieving father, photographic evidence, and Israeli group B'Tselem are all terrorists/unreliable/pro-Nazi in 5, 4, 3... Pallywood made its own bed. Don't blame me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood ----------------------------------- We should be proud that our Prophet came into the world with the message of Islam to change it for the better, and not for the worse, or to keep things as they are. ---Abu Bakar Bashir Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Kitchener Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 That "Pallywood"! Making Israel ban journalists, so that any reports could be dismissed as "only Palestinians". How sneaky of them! Then making Israel change its story about the Grad rock- I mean, the materiel... that had formerly been stored... in some place that, um, used to have rockets, honest, in it! Man, Pallywood sure does deceptive stuff, huh? Fortunately, it's a cool sounding word. You can just keep saying it, sort of like a mantra, until the uncomfortable data fade from your mind. Pallywood. Pallywood. Liberal media. Major Avital Leibovich, said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel." Doh! I mean -- Pallywood. Pallywood... cognitive dissonance fading... Pallywood... Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 That "Pallywood"! Making Israel ban journalists, so that any reports could be dismissed as "only Palestinians". How sneaky of them! Then making Israel change its story about the Grad rock- I mean, the materiel... that had formerly been stored... in some place that, um, used to have rockets, honest, in it! Man, Pallywood sure does deceptive stuff, huh? Fortunately, it's a cool sounding word. You can just keep saying it, sort of like a mantra, until the uncomfortable data fade from your mind. Pallywood. Pallywood. Liberal media. Major Avital Leibovich, said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel." Doh! I mean -- Pallywood. Pallywood... cognitive dissonance fading... Pallywood... If I was an Israeli general, the very first thing I'd do is ban reporters, as well. As for the welding bottles story...who knows? I think it is very bad judgement on someone's part to load what looks like rockets onto a truck while Israel is attacking. I wouldn't do it, for example. Then (as per Pallywood) the story could be entirely manufactured for our benefit. Neither of us can say. Pallywood destroyed the credibility of a lot of these so-called human interest stories. ------------------------------------------- I think Israel will think one thousands times before invading Gaza. ---Sheikh A. Yassin: founder HAMAS Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
WIP Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 I don't think these stories merit a new thread, but I haven't seen any mention yet about the rumours coming primariliy from the Arab Press, but also being talked about by a number of bloggers, that Hamas missile attacks were being targeted at the Dimona reactor, a site they tried to hit in a terrorist attack earlier in the year. http://www.israelforum.com/blog_article.php?aid=1887001 http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275309.html http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80245...ionid=351020202 Is there anything tangible to stories that Hamas may have heavy payload missiles from Iran for such an attack, and is it a possible reason why the IDF has been much quicker to take aggressive action against Hamas this time around? Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
DogOnPorch Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 I don't think these stories merit a new thread, but I haven't seen any mention yet about the rumours coming primariliy from the Arab Press, but also being talked about by a number of bloggers, that Hamas missile attacks were being targeted at the Dimona reactor, a site they tried to hit in a terrorist attack earlier in the year. http://www.israelforum.com/blog_article.php?aid=1887001 http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275309.html http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80245...ionid=351020202 Is there anything tangible to stories that Hamas may have heavy payload missiles from Iran for such an attack, and is it a possible reason why the IDF has been much quicker to take aggressive action against Hamas this time around? I have also heard of this. ---------------------- If Time = Money and Money = Pizza Then Time = Pizza. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Keepitsimple Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) I didn't go through all the posts so maybe someone has said this. Peace would come very quickly if Hamas accepted Israel's right to exist. As it stands, the Hamas Charter contains many statements that clearly indicate that they will never accept peace with Israel and in fact want to kill all Jews. This is their Charter - this is the reason Hamas exists - and all the mealy-mouthed, self righteous journalism will not change the fact that until Hamas denounces their Charter and agrees to recognize Israel's right to exist, nothing can be accomplished. Do we hear this from that glorious institution, the United Nations? No, we don't. And it goes on and on. "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). Read the full Hamas Charter here: http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm Edited January 3, 2009 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
WIP Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 I didn't go through all the posts so maybe someone has said this. Peace would come very quickly if Hamas accepted Israel's right to exist. And even if they changed their Charter, they would need to demonstrate some credible reasons for changing their minds about destroying Israel. When it's all said and done, what's really depressing about this neverending war is whether it is even possible to make peace with an enemy dedicated to your destruction, or to "drive them into the sea" as Nasser used to say 40 years ago. If they sign a peace agreement, will they honour it if their fortunes change and they see a chance in the future to destroy Israel? Personally, I doubt it. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Rue Posted January 3, 2009 Report Posted January 3, 2009 Ruehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7795139.stm What is your take on this.. The lady they report on in the article states If it is illegal even Israeli law ... then what is the resolution to this problem? I know Isreali law is different from International Law .. or even UN law, that could put all other disputed settlements under the gun. If that is the case, this is what the Palestinians overall are fighting about. This seemed to have been a bad deal from the start, and decades later, much conflict is still going on. I guess if this place has been like this for thousands of years, I say arm all equal and let the chips fall where they may. Tired of defending either side. I just don't see the point anymore. I am sorry I took so long to respond Gosthacked. I also responded to BC in other threads on this conflict trying to show her respect for her arguments because I listen to her. I disagree with a lot of what she says but not her idealism and intent to try debate the matter. So now I acknowledge what you say. You know I am a lawyer. So I have to agree with part of your point. The point is this. There are a complex series of layers of competing rights to land that will engage the civilians of Gaza and the West Bank who are referred to as Palestinians as well as Jews on the West Bank and Christians in Gaza and the West Bank as well as Muslims, Christians, Jews, Druze who are Israeli citizens and in regards to land within Israel proper. Its a minefield. Its complex, its difficult and in a comprehensive peace settlement compromises will have to be made and competing legal rights which have equal legal veracity will have to be balanced and mediated. I do not for one second suggest settlements on the West Bank by Israelis are legal. I also however would caution you that land claims by Palestinians may not be as black and white as you may believe them to be either. In fact in an overall peace process if a second Palestinian state is to be created, it may directly compete with land rights Arab Israelis are seeking and may have to give up to assure this second state comes about. As well the legal rights of Jews to land and property confiscated by the Arab league leading to 900,000 being expelled, ironically a higher number then actual displaced Palestinians after Israel's creation, such rights will also have to be compromised. When I challnge Kuzad it is because he and I know Hamas believes all of Jordan and Israel as well as he West Bank and Gaza are envisioned in its state with zero rights to Jews or Israelis of the Middle East. I do not appreciate how Hamas plays the word game with the word "occupied" precisely so that people like BC Chick are fooled into thinking they are only referring to Gaza or the West Bank when they are not. However to answer you directly, yes-as part of a comprehensive peace plan, the status quo for Palestinians of course has to be rectified. Living as non citizens in a no man's land is not a solution it only prolongs this insanity. You find a way to contain the Muslim fundamentalist extremist terrorists of Hamas, and I will deal with Benjamin Netanyahu. We can compare bruises on our buttox at a later date. Quote
BC_chick Posted January 4, 2009 Author Report Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) I didn't go through all the posts so maybe someone has said this. Peace would come very quickly if Hamas accepted Israel's right to exist. As it stands, the Hamas Charter contains many statements that clearly indicate that they will never accept peace with Israel and in fact want to kill all Jews. This is their Charter - this is the reason Hamas exists - and all the mealy-mouthed, self righteous journalism will not change the fact that until Hamas denounces their Charter and agrees to recognize Israel's right to exist, nothing can be accomplished. Do we hear this from that glorious institution, the United Nations? No, we don't. And it goes on and on.Read the full Hamas Charter here: http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm Hamas changed its charter 3 years ago regarding the destruction of Israel, the charter in your link is from 1988: Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto· Shift comes in lead-up to Palestinian election · Commitment to armed struggle remains * Chris McGreal in Jerusalem * The Guardian, Thursday 12 January 2006 * Article history Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories. The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place. The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem". link Their victory in the Gaza election started the Israeli blockades given their hardline stance against Israel. After a tumultuous period of truce (where Israel wasn't completely innocent either, breaking the terms of the agreement numerous times) the rockets started. The rest we all know and here we are now with air strikes and a ground invasion. I'm not going to pretend Hamas are a bunch of peace-loving pacifists, they still support armed resistance according to their charter (as stated in the quote above), and they did their share of taunting Israel prior to the strikes. But if Israel won't recognise the democratically elected leaders of Gaza because of something that is no longer true (their uncompromising charter), we need to stop repeating that misinformation. Edited January 4, 2009 by BC_chick Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
Kitchener Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 we need to stop repeating that misinformation. The resulting rightwing brownout that would result from following this prescription might cause MLW to fade away... Quote
jbg Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 Yup, and "Palestine' was given plenty of warning to quit firing the rockets or else !!As usual the 'breaking story' at CNN showed photos of grieving "victims", but no mention of the hundreds of rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel - can't talk about that one now, can we. I agree.I saw on the front page of the N.Y. Times a picture of a little child who the Israelis were graciously "allowing" to flee. The image being given is that it could have been anyone's son, and in fact he looked like my son. The point of this picture is to paint the Gazans as victims of a rapacious, cruel Israel. So, what's wrong with this picture? Lots. The Gazans have been, as pointed out above, firing rockets at Israel. They started immediately at the end of the six-month "truce". These rockets do not distinguish between "military" targets and schools, hospitals, houses, etc. An even more basic fact is the level of human misery the Arabs have foisted upon the Gazans and to a lesser extent the West Bankers. The Arabs who fled Israel upon its formation were kept in refugee camps rather than being re-absorbed into the local Arab population. Unlike every other refugee group in the world, a separate UN organizatio nwas formed for them, UNWRA. Given the essentially unlimited tapline of aid, the Arabs did two things with it; armed themselves to the teeth, and went on a breeding spree. Essentially, they did wha thigh school students would do if told it was OK to get their friends pregnant, don't worry, the money's there to support the resulting children. How many children do you see in a typical "Palestinian" family? Did we not read of the killing of "four wives" of one of the terrorist leaders? Is anyone even talking about economic development of any so-called "Palestinian" land? The fact that they are not is pretty good evidence that the creation of a State, under current conditions, is the creation of a launch pad for future attacks. And the concept of 1/3 of Palestinians not "recognizing" Israel? Rubbish. Even though that's a minority it's still a posture that is not consonant with peace. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Michael Hardner Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 The Gazans have been, as pointed out above, firing rockets at Israel. They started immediately at the end of the six-month "truce". These rockets do not distinguish between "military" targets and schools, hospitals, houses, etc.An even more basic fact is the level of human misery the Arabs have foisted upon the Gazans and to a lesser extent the West Bankers. The Arabs who fled Israel upon its formation were kept in refugee camps rather than being re-absorbed into the local Arab population. Unlike every other refugee group in the world, a separate UN organizatio nwas formed for them, UNWRA. Given the essentially unlimited tapline of aid, the Arabs did two things with it; armed themselves to the teeth, and went on a breeding spree. Essentially, they did wha thigh school students would do if told it was OK to get their friends pregnant, don't worry, the money's there to support the resulting children. How many children do you see in a typical "Palestinian" family? Did we not read of the killing of "four wives" of one of the terrorist leaders? Is anyone even talking about economic development of any so-called "Palestinian" land? The fact that they are not is pretty good evidence that the creation of a State, under current conditions, is the creation of a launch pad for future attacks. And the concept of 1/3 of Palestinians not "recognizing" Israel? Rubbish. Even though that's a minority it's still a posture that is not consonant with peace. jbg, Your first paragraph raises a valid point, but your second amounts to: "After they were driven from their homes, they had the nerve to live in refugee camps and have children !". And, with regards to the third, getting Hamas to renounce the destruction of Israel wasn't an easy feat. Should that just be ignored ? Palestinians hate Israel, that's no secret, but why make demands such as asking Hamas to renounce violence if you will just ask for more demands after they're met ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
jbg Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 jbg,Your first paragraph raises a valid point, but your second amounts to: "After they were driven from their homes, they had the nerve to live in refugee camps and have children !". The Jews airlifted from Iraq and Yemen in 1948 do not live in "refugee camps". They are not maintained as weapons against the Arabs.And, with regards to the third, getting Hamas to renounce the destruction of Israel wasn't an easy feat. Should that just be ignored ? Palestinians hate Israel, that's no secret, but why make demands such as asking Hamas to renounce violence if you will just ask for more demands after they're met ?Their "renunciation" is not convincing in view of the rocket attacks. And the Gazans appear to not know of any recognition of Israel. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jerry J. Fortin Posted January 4, 2009 Report Posted January 4, 2009 Gazans, nice name for an extinct group of terrorists. Quote
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.