CBC partners with Islam Extremists?

ToadBrother · December 16, 2008

Looking into this a little more, I found MAC's website wherein integration with Canada is a stated mission:
MAC site

Was Al-Banna a violent person ? Did he preach violence ? Or resistance ? I can't find a lot of evidence that supports him as a violent figure. He certainly doesn't seem to be more violent than say, Nelson Mandela, or George Bush Sr. who fought for their nations with bombs and bullets.

Let's hear more.

I don't think you can compare an Islamist fundamentalist to Nelson Mandela or George Bush Sr. In the case of Mandela, he didn't come to another country and begin organizing violence, his violence was in his own homeland. The Elder Bush fought in WWII in a declared war against the Axis Powers. It was his job and duty as a sworn member of the United States Armed Forces to, for lack of a better word, be violent.

Michael Hardner · December 16, 2008

I don't think you can compare an Islamist fundamentalist to Nelson Mandela or George Bush Sr. In the case of Mandela, he didn't come to another country and begin organizing violence, his violence was in his own homeland. The Elder Bush fought in WWII in a declared war against the Axis Powers. It was his job and duty as a sworn member of the United States Armed Forces to, for lack of a better word, be violent.

We're talking about Al-Banna specifically though.

What did he do ?

Mr.Canada · December 16, 2008

We're talking about Al-Banna specifically though.
What did he do ?

Please do your own research. I often find that if one is too lazy to look for their own information their is little to be gained from any dialogue with a person who refuses to do a simple search.

Michael Hardner · December 16, 2008

Please do your own research. I often find that if one is too lazy to look for their own information their is little to be gained from any dialogue with a person who refuses to do a simple search.

Mr. Canada destroyed Spain in 1968.

Don't believe me ? Well do your own research !

In other words the onus is on you to prove anything you say...

Mr.Canada · December 16, 2008

Mr. Canada destroyed Spain in 1968.
Don't believe me ? Well do your own research !

In other words the onus is on you to prove anything you say...

The man supports terror and war against the west. His own words in the article speak to that. If you cannot see that it isn't my problem. IF you think the MB is a benevolent society that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

kimmy · December 16, 2008

Hi Michael.

I don't have any prior knowledge about Al Banna, but have looked at a few online sources over the past couple of days.

This biography contains a brief history of him, and outlines some of the views that characterized the movement he founded:

http://www.bookrags.com/biography/hassan-al-banna/

His agenda appears to have been an interesting mix of progressive socialism with traditional Muslim beliefs.

In a poor nation struggling with transition from traditional handicrafts and small enterprise to western-style industrialism and business, some of these ideas obviously had tremendous appeal: fairer wages for workers, profit sharing, more equitable wages in government jobs. Also described is the call for return to Muslim traditions of charity as an important measure in improving the common good.

Also described in his teachings is the rejection of secularism and westernization:

During the second half of the 19th century Egypt had witnessed vigorous reformist efforts directed towards making Western thoughts and institutions more acceptable to Islamic society without undermining Islam itself. Such efforts had been led by important religious leaders such as Jamal Al-Din Al-Afghani, Muhammad Abdu, and Rashid Ridda. However, by the 1920s, with increasing political, social, and economic problems, Egypt witnessed a period of resurgence of conservative Islamic ideals. Al-Banna was the disciple of these earlier reformers; unlike them, however, he did not look for a way of compromise with Western ideas. What he called for was the institution of an Islamic state with a caliph as its leader and the Koran as the basis of its law.
(...)

Among other things, it called for a moral society in Islamic terms and an end to Westernization. Since the ills of society were blamed on the habits of the Europeanized upper classes who preferred to wear Western clothes, speak European languages, and bring up their children according to Western customs, habits of the rich were to be combatted.

(...)

As for the social program, one of the main concerns of the Ikhwan was the breakdown in the traditional role of the family and in familial interrelationships. What with the growing poverty, immigration of rural masses to urban centers, and other dislocation in Egyptian society, the family, the basic unit of Islamic society, was breaking down and the young, widows, and older members were often left homeless. The state had not stepped in to fill the gap caused by this dislocation. The Ikhwan's program, therefore, called for safeguarding the family and family traditions through enforcement of morality by a ban on prostitution, alcohol, night-clubs, and theater productions of immoral nature and censorship of radio programs, newspapers, and books. The morality of women was to be guarded carefully, no association of the sexes before marriage would be allowed, and even though women were to be educated, schools would be segregated at all levels.

This seems to be in agreement with what Pipes and Fatah said of Al Banna's ideology.

What I would emphasize is that while all of this probably made great sense and was extremely popular in Egypt in the 1930s and 1940s, Canada is not Egypt.

There are certainly some of Al Banna's ideals that would be highly relevant even here and now... the organization's participation in this venture supporting food banks shows as much. However, the anti-secularism, anti-Western portion of Al Banna's program obviously just isn't compatible with participating in Canada in the present day. So perhaps rather than saying they seek to implement Al Banna's ideas in Canada, perhaps they should articulate which ideas they support and how they would wish to implement them: expressing blanket support for Al Banna obviously leaves reason for concern.

-k

M.Dancer · December 16, 2008

Please do your own research. I often find that if one is too lazy to look for their own information their is little to be gained from any dialogue with a person who refuses to do a simple search.

A fundamental maxim of any debate is the burden of proof lies with the positive claimant.

kimmy · December 17, 2008

Somehow I just knew that the grand sum of Mr Canada's research on Mr al Banna was what was contained in the original post.

-k

Michael Hardner · December 17, 2008

However, the anti-secularism, anti-Western portion of Al Banna's program obviously just isn't compatible with participating in Canada in the present day. So perhaps rather than saying they seek to implement Al Banna's ideas in Canada, perhaps they should articulate which ideas they support and how they would wish to implement them: expressing blanket support for Al Banna obviously leaves reason for concern.

k,

The excerpt that you found is excellent. I do find, however, that Al Banna's ideals are well within the acceptable founds for religious freedom.

We currently have a number of sects who have thrived in Canada with similar values: orthodox Jews, as well as Amish reject many aspects of secular life, and equality of the sexes.

Argus · December 17, 2008

k,
The excerpt that you found is excellent. I do find, however, that Al Banna's ideals are well within the acceptable founds for religious freedom.

We currently have a number of sects who have thrived in Canada with similar values: orthodox Jews, as well as Amish reject many aspects of secular life, and equality of the sexes.

Do they cut your hand off if you're caught lifting a loaf of bread at the market?

Do they bury their women to the necks and stone them to death if they're suspected of committing adultery - or hang them from cranes if they're raped?

Michael Hardner · December 17, 2008

Argus,

Do they cut your hand off if you're caught lifting a loaf of bread at the market?

Hopefully they're not fundamental bible readers who follow what Leviticus says on this.

Do they bury their women to the necks and stone them to death if they're suspected of committing adultery - or hang them from cranes if they're raped?

Jeez... load your questions much ?

They don't, no.

Mr.Canada · December 17, 2008

We currently have a number of sects who have thrived in Canada with similar values: orthodox Jews, as well as Amish reject many aspects of secular life, and equality of the sexes.

That's true but these religions/sects aren't carrying out violence on a global scale against people who don't view the world and live as they do. Are all Muslims doing this? Of coarse not but millions of Muslims are using violence or advocating its use to further their aims. I don't support my tax dollars being used to fund groups with exclusive policies and xenophobic and sometimes violent ideals.

Oleg Bach · December 17, 2008

Look at England - they did a poll. They asked immigrants if they were loyal to their new nation - 26% said no..that's 26% potential domesticly grown terrorists...and yet they are more than willing to soak up the resourses of their host nation - and some are more than willing to bite the hand that feeds them - London subway bombing is a perfect example of why the doors of immigration should have been closed a long time ago - especially to those that hate us - yet we say - come on in...dumb.

Michael Hardner · December 17, 2008

MrC,

That's true but these religions/sects aren't carrying out violence on a global scale against people who don't view the world and live as they do. Are all Muslims doing this? Of coarse not but millions of Muslims are using violence or advocating its use to further their aims. I don't support my tax dollars being used to fund groups with exclusive policies and xenophobic and sometimes violent ideals.

Again, with the circular argument !

You're saying that the proof of the holy book causing the violence is that they're following the holy book and they're violent !

From the sounds of it, your tax dollars should be used to fund YOU.

You're neither Canadian nor Christian in the classic definition of these terms. I consider you a new form of maple flavoured Taliban.

Mr.Canada · December 17, 2008

MrC,
Again, with the circular argument !

You're saying that the proof of the holy book causing the violence is that they're following the holy book and they're violent !

From the sounds of it, your tax dollars should be used to fund YOU.

You're neither Canadian nor Christian in the classic definition of these terms. I consider you a new form of maple flavoured Taliban.

Mike, what I am saying here is true. If you refuse to believe it looking through your rose colored glasses that's up to you. The rest of Canada would agree with my statement.

Michael Hardner · December 17, 2008

Mr C,

Mike, what I am saying here is true. If you refuse to believe it looking through your rose colored glasses that's up to you. The rest of Canada would agree with my statement.

What rose colored glasses ? I have repeatedly asked for some kind of basis for these assertions of yours and I get 'go look it up yourself'.

You don't have proof, so you're the one who arrives at the data with your conclusion already in hand. Your glasses are coloured for sure, but not rose. Probably a dark brown.

Mr.Canada · December 17, 2008

Mr C,
What rose colored glasses ? I have repeatedly asked for some kind of basis for these assertions of yours and I get 'go look it up yourself'.

You don't have proof, so you're the one who arrives at the data with your conclusion already in hand. Your glasses are coloured for sure, but not rose. Probably a dark brown.

So a man who bases his beliefs off of a known Islamic extremist isn't enough for you? You support your tax dollars being used to support this organization?

Michael Hardner · December 17, 2008

Which man are we talking about ? And what do you mean by 'extremism' ?

You see, Mr. Canada, I ask questions. Try it.

kimmy · December 19, 2008

The excerpt that you found is excellent. I do find, however, that Al Banna's ideals are well within the acceptable founds for religious freedom.
We currently have a number of sects who have thrived in Canada with similar values: orthodox Jews, as well as Amish reject many aspects of secular life, and equality of the sexes.

They're certainly well within their right to hold those beliefs, if those are indeed beliefs they hold.

However, the question is not whether they're allowed to believe that. The question is whether the CBC should be in any way associated with a group that hold such views.

Argus,
Hopefully they're not fundamental bible readers who follow what Leviticus says on this.

Jeez... load your questions much ?

They don't, no.

If the CBC had partnered with a Christian group of dubious value... some outfit that believes Leviticus forms the basis of a solid law and order program, say... would people think that was appropriate for the CBC? I'm suggesting, probably not.

-k

Michael Hardner · December 19, 2008

k,

If the CBC had partnered with a Christian group of dubious value... some outfit that believes Leviticus forms the basis of a solid law and order program, say... would people think that was appropriate for the CBC? I'm suggesting, probably not.

No, they wouldn't.

If 'Hymn Sing' was still on the air (if you remember that incredible show) or the producers of CBC's 'Tapestry' decided to partner with an Amish sect or (egad!) a Catholic charity I would very much expect people to decry the evil of Christianity over the years of history. They would have 'proof' that Christianity is wrong because of incidents like the inquisition, crusades, priest scandals etc. etc.

And I would defend Christianity - probably with more vigour than I defend other faiths.

People don't feel right in drawing a line between race and personality anymore - somehow it has sunk in that that's a bad thing to do. But they haven't drawn the same line with religion.

Mr.Canada · December 19, 2008

Michael Hardner

If you read the article you would know who I was talking about. It is the leader of the group that the CBC is backing fyi.

Kimmy already gave the info I didn't feelo the need to repeat the same things she said just to make you happy, it's redundant.

Michael Hardner · December 20, 2008

Actually, Mr. Canada, I think you're confused.

You said:

"So a man who bases his beliefs off of a known Islamic extremist isn't enough for you? "

I think you meant to say 'So an organization...'. And in case you missed it, Kimmy and I both looked over his bio and there's nothing that shocking in there.

Come up with something better.

Mr.Canada · December 20, 2008

Actually, Mr. Canada, I think you're confused.
You said:

"So a man who bases his beliefs off of a known Islamic extremist isn't enough for you? "

I think you meant to say 'So an organization...'. And in case you missed it, Kimmy and I both looked over his bio and there's nothing that shocking in there.

Come up with something better.

That's fine too. Play with semantics all you want. It doesn't change the facts which what you're trying to avoid in the name of political correctness. I'm made of stronger stuff.

Michael Hardner · December 20, 2008

Mr. Canada,

You made up the 'political correctness' thing out of thin air. You haven't got enough facts to back up your views. That's not 'political correctness' it's just 'correctness'.

ReeferMadness · December 20, 2008

Mike, what I am saying here is true. If you refuse to believe it looking through your rose colored glasses that's up to you. The rest of Canada would agree with my statement.

Speak for yourself. You cannot and do not speak for "the rest of Canada".

From what I've read in this forum, you may have raised a legitimate concern but it's not worthy of the hysterical tone in which it's been presented. Also, I've seen more than a couple of post that demonize Islam. That's neither fair nor helpful.

Some of you need to examine your attitudes towards other cultures and religions.