Alberta: tin cup in hand

[AngusThermopyle]

I'll add that the tar sands are a disgrace... the amount of energy and water it takes to extract the oil is a crime against humanity.

And I'll add that you should learn the facts before making such outragious and inflamatory remarks. At the end of the day one must note that Canada is the "greenest" of all countries when it comes to oil production. Further to that is the fact that the water used is reclaimed and with developing technologies this reclamation is becoming dramatically more efficient with time.

Current water license allocations totals about 1.8 per cent of the Athabasca river flow. Actual use in 2006 was about 0.4 per cent.[45] In addition, the Alberta government sets strict limits on how much water oil sands companies can remove from the Athabasca River.

Now, on to energy requirements. Yes, it does take a lot of energy to extract the oil currently but its not energy taken from the "grid" the energy is produced by using the by products of the extraction process, products that would otherwise be disposed of or used in other endevours.

Large amounts of energy are needed to extract and upgrade the bitumen to synthetic crude. At this point in time, most of this is produced by burning natural gas which is widely available in the oil sands area.

Alternatives to natural gas exist and are available in the oil sands area. Bitumen can itself be used as the fuel, consuming about 30-35% of the raw bitumen per produced unit of synthetic crude. Nexen's Long Lake project (in construction) will use a proprietary desasphalting technology to upgrade the bitumen, and asphalt will be fed to a gasifier whose syngas will be used by a cogeneration turbine and an hydrogen producting unit, providing all the energy needs of the project : steam, hydrogen, and electricity.[62] Thus, it will produce syncrude without consuming natural gas, but the capital cost is very high.

Now lets talk about environmental concerns, specifically the one so many people tout as a crime. Gisturbance of the land. All energy companies in the tar sands operations are required to implement a reclamation plan or they just are not licensed for operations. Once the Bitumen is extracted the base materials (mostly sand) are replaced in the areas they were mined from and the Arboreal forest is allowed to reclaim the area undisturbed. Given that operations are large scale and long term this is not a fast process, but it is in place and it is happening.

A large part of oil sands mining operations involves clearing trees and brush from a site and removing the "overburden" — the topsoil, muskeg, sand, clay and gravel — that sits atop the oil sands deposit.[35] As a condition of licensing, projects are required to implement a reclamation plan.[36] The mining industry asserts that the boreal forest will eventually colonize the reclaimed lands, but that their operations are massive and work on long-term timeframes. As of 2006/2007 (the most recent data available), about 420 km² of land in the oil sands region have been disturbed, and 65 km² of that land is under reclamation.[37] In March 2008, Alberta issued the first-ever oil sands land reclamation certificate to Syncrude Canada Ltd. for the 1.04 km² parcel of land known as Gateway Hill approximately 35 kilometres north of Fort McMurray.[38] Several reclamation certificate applications for oil sands projects are expected within the next 10 years.[39]

An interesting fact is that between them Canada and Venezuela hold 2/3 of the worlds oil reserves. The true crime against humanity would be to shut these areas down. Remove 2/3 of the worlds reserves and watch what would happen. Our world would see massive increases in everything from poverty to war. Sure you can say "we'll find an alternative to fossil fuels" thats very easy to say, a lot harder to do. Given that no viable alternative exists what would you propose the solution be? Should we regress the advance of humanity several hundred years?

Currently technologies are both under development and being implemented that will elinimate the use of water in production. One such method is Toe To Heel Air Injection THAI. In this method water is not used, previously it was not used because of difficulty in controlling the "burn" however it has become more viable now with the influence of emerging technology and is being adopted more widely.

This is a very new and experimental method that combines a vertical air injection well with a horizontal production well. The process ignites oil in the reservoir and creates a vertical wall of fire moving from the "toe" of the horizontal well toward the "heel", which burns the heavier oil components and drives the lighter components into the production well, where it is pumped out. In addition, the heat from the fire upgrades some of the heavy bitumen into lighter oil right in the formation. Historically fireflood projects have not worked out well because of difficulty in controlling the flame front and a propensity to set the producing wells on fire. However, some oil companies feel the THAI method will be more controllable and practical, and have the advantage of not requiring energy to create steam.[28]

Advocates of this method of extraction state that it uses less freshwater, produces 50% less greenhouse gases, and has a smaller footprint than other production techniques.[29]

Given these factors it becomes obvious that there are people out there who see the patch as an easy target to further their own agenda. Of course you'll never hear any of this from such luminaries as Elizabeth May, it just wouldn't procuce the outrage and fear they need to further their agenda if they actually told the truth and used facts.

You also won't hear these folks mentioning the fact that the land after reclamation is actually in better shape than before extraction due to the fact that the toxic Bitumen has been removed from the base material. So lets just ignore these uncomfortable facts and continue with the "crime against humanity" and the sky is falling garbage.

People should look into the facts for themselves rather than just parroting half truths and lies spouted by those with a vested interest in demonizing one of the countries major economic contributors. I sincerely hope this small parcel of information will encourage you to delve a little more deeply into the subject so that you'll be aware when others attempt to hijack your sensibilities in order to advance their cause.

[White Doors]

it's basically a huge oil spill clean up program

Thanks for the info Angus

[Smallc]

it's basically a huge oil spill clean up program

along with a heavy water dumping program.....

[August1991]

This is nothing new. It's piggies staking out their place at the trough.

Stelmach notices Ontario and Quebec manufacturing-- the auto sector, prominently-- about to receive a staggering amount of federal money, and probably a bunch more when the inevitable "financial stimulus package" arrives. And he wonders... how can we get some of that action here?

If some of the kids are getting toys and cookies, the other kids feel left out.

Your example is innacurate, Kimmy. The federal government has no cookies or toys. All it can do is move cookies and toys around.

So, to pay for the bail-outs to car manufacturers and forestry firms, teh federal government is taking from other successful firms (eg. tar sands) and moving the toys and cookies about.

At eyeball has the honesty to declare that life is not always fair.

[White Doors]

along with a heavy water dumping program.....

heavy water?

There are no candu reactors up there. (yet)

[Topaz]

Alberta to seek tax breaks for oil sands

Tax breaks and write offs?

Oil prices being so low, make this project unfeasible. (never mind the environmental damage)

Alberta asks for a hand out from the FEDS, that means the rest of Canada.

The ones that Albertans revile so.

Gee, now who was on this forum that said that I didn't know I was talking about when I said the oil and gas may need help when the prices went real low??? I also suggested that the OPEC countries may try to lower oil prices to ruin the oil sands.

[AngusThermopyle]

Gee, now who was on this forum that said that I didn't know I was talking about

Well...not to sound petty or mean Topaz but quite a few of us say that about quite a few of your posts.

[AngusThermopyle]

along with a heavy water dumping program.....

Okay I guess you have comprehension problems, either that or you are just uncomfortable admitting that what you've accepted as truth is actually a fabrication.

Did you not see the part about where far less water is used than is actually allocated? Or the part about water reclamation? Or the part about new methods not requiring water or just a minimal amount of water?

Not to mention the fact that the waste water is not heavy water at all, or do you not know what heavy water actually is?

[stevoh]

There you go see, you Albertan's aren't productive enough. You're all spending to much time sitting on your asses smoking pot and bad-mouthing your country.

The Alberta oil patch workers are some of the biggest pot smokers in the country.

[Smallc]

Not to mention the fact that the waste water is not heavy water at all, or do you not know what heavy water actually is?

Sorry, something someone who teaches anatomy told me last week. It seems that it was inaccurate and they may have been thinking of something else or I simply misremembered. There are though, very bad health problems appearing in the workers. What is going into the air is not good, whether or not you support the project (which I do). There may be clean aspects of it, but it is certainly not a clean process. That said, no oil extraction process is clean.

[AngusThermopyle]

The Alberta oil patch workers are some of the biggest pot smokers in the country.

Cite, link, anything?

Or is this just your personal opinion?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Pot smoking is a bad thing, but is it anybody's business? Why isn't booze everybody's business? Whats the difference?

[eyeball]

Pot smoking is a bad thing, but is it anybody's business? Why isn't booze everybody's business? Whats the difference?

Booze is a right wing drug and pot isn't.

[AngusThermopyle]

Booze is a right wing drug and pot isn't.

Cite please.

Obviously you really don't know the facts if you seriously make such an assumption.

[eyeball]

It was just a personal opinion.

OTOH you say there are actually facts about what I said? Where?

[AngusThermopyle]

OTOH you say there are actually facts about what I said? Where?

There have been quite a few studies done on the demographics of marijuana usage. As I recall from some of them it has pretty well become a mainstream drug with everyone from youth to doctors and lawyers indulging in it. I'll see if I can find some for you.

Just A Quickie

Demographics: Although marijuana use extends across all demographic groups, it continues to be most prevalent among the young. More than 97 million Americans have tried pot, with 2.1 million trying it for the first time last year. An estimated 14.5 million Americans smoke it on a regular basis.

Not an ideal example but I'm a bit pressed for time and didn't want to just give you a link to NORML or something (they tend to be very biased). I'll look for some better links later if tou're interested.

Edited December 10, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Murray B.]

Well, a tax break (not taking the money) is not the same thing as a bailout that involves a cash transfer but I agree that Albertans are quite naive.

Look at what Manning said, “The West Wants In”. Does this mean that he believes the ‘sub-humans’ in the outer provinces are somehow equal to people in central Canada? Preposterous, the outer provinces are colonies of Ottawa and colonists NEVER have equal rights?

The function of the federal government has always been to indenture the 49% to satisfy the 51%. That is the Canadian way. Manning’s comments smack of Americanism and this is a slippery slope that can only lead to things like representative democracy, minority rights, and even individual rights. All without the protection of a notwithstanding clause.

The Idea that a smoker, or a gun owner, or even an oil worker is equal to a Canadian is completely foreign to the high people in central Canada. What was Mr. Manning thinking? If people in the outer provinces do not like the way things are they should just leave.

[eyeball]

There have been quite a few studies done on the demographics of marijuana usage.

Yes but what about the political leanings of people who smoke pot vs those who drink though? Its facts about this that I was hoping you'd provide.

Sorry about hijacking the thread with this by the way.

[AngusThermopyle]

Yes but what about the political leanings of people who smoke pot vs those who drink though? Its facts about this that I was hoping you'd provide.

Okay, now I see what you're getting at. Honestly I don't know if anyone has ever gathered that sort of information. Without further info I'd have to say probably not.

It would probably be a tricky study to undertake as so many people have so many perceptions and views of what constitutes left/right in a political context.

[normanchateau]

Alberta to seek tax breaks for oil sands

Tax breaks and write offs?

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Alberta will soon be asking for far more than tax breaks.

"CALGARY -- Crude-oil prices will plunge to $20 US a barrel as the global slowdown throws even burgeoning China into a recession, according to Philip Verleger, a professor at the Haskayne School of Business at the University of Calgary.

Furthermore, he said, the downturn will be so deep that it will take three to four years for the global economy -- and energy prices -- to return to normal levels."

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/mon...5f5&k=40351

Assuming the cost of production of a barrel of oil from tar sands is $25 a barrel, even an economist like Harper would concede that tax breaks alone will not save the tar sands industry.

Alberta will soon be asking for far more than tax breaks. I wonder if those free marketers who oppose socialist multibillion dollar handouts to the failing auto industry will favour socialist multibillion dollar handouts to the tar sands industry.

If George Bush could switch from capitalist to socialist, so can the home of Stephen Harper.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Should oil prices collapse very much further, you can start thinking about a US AND Canadian bailout of oil companies!

Look folks the world is about to enter into a depression, we need to be aware that virtually all sectors of the economy are going to take hits. Look at our financial industry right now, the prime rate is taking cut after cut but the banks are not passing along the saving. Perhaps soon enough folks will wake up and smell the coffee. The harsh reality is that it is the monetary system and the financial industry that has CAUSED the problems we are now facing. The political ideologies of the day are subject to the public reality of the now global economies. Never before in the history of mankind has this kind of thing ever happened before. We are in uncharted territory.

I will speculate here. Prepare yourselves for some radical actions by governments around the world. China could be very hard hit if the US stops buying their produced goods, and the US could be hurt badly by the Chinese stopping their purchase of US Treasury Bills to finance their growing debt. The EU is beginning to experience actual retractions in GDP, you can expect that to happen here next and then finally in the Asian corner of the world. The end game is a monetary collapse on a global level.

Oil is the visible cornerstone because it represents energy utilized in the production and delivery of goods and services. What is not visible is the financing of the purchase of energy and energy related efforts. It is the financing that will force the changes worldwide.

[eyeball]

Should oil prices collapse very much further, you can start thinking about a US AND Canadian bailout of oil companies!

Look folks the world is about to enter into a depression, we need to be aware that virtually all sectors of the economy are going to take hits. Look at our financial industry right now, the prime rate is taking cut after cut but the banks are not passing along the saving. Perhaps soon enough folks will wake up and smell the coffee. The harsh reality is that it is the monetary system and the financial industry that has CAUSED the problems we are now facing. The political ideologies of the day are subject to the public reality of the now global economies. Never before in the history of mankind has this kind of thing ever happened before. We are in uncharted territory.

Humanity has been here before, lots of times. The simple reality is that the wealthy and powerful are in trouble and the poor and the weak are being thrown into the streets. Humans have floundered on this well charted shoal many times before and the result is usually as disasterous as it is partisan and ideological. The rich will blame the poor and the poor will blame the rich. Just wait until religiosity and morality enter into the fray.

I will speculate here. Prepare yourselves for some radical actions by governments around the world. China could be very hard hit if the US stops buying their produced goods, and the US could be hurt badly by the Chinese stopping their purchase of US Treasury Bills to finance their growing debt. The EU is beginning to experience actual retractions in GDP, you can expect that to happen here next and then finally in the Asian corner of the world. The end game is a monetary collapse on a global level.

I expect near complete paralysis myself but I'll bite, what do you consider radical? Personally, I think we should zero everyone's account, take all the money in the world and distribute it equally amongst every human being and start over again. My radical departure however would be to put the foxes in the coop and guard it with the chickens.

Oil is the visible cornerstone because it represents energy utilized in the production and delivery of goods and services. What is not visible is the financing of the purchase of energy and energy related efforts. It is the financing that will force the changes worldwide.

The cornerstone of our economy should definitely be visible. The cornerstone of our economy should be its complete and utter transparency at every level of its governance and regulation. To do that however we'll need to make every level of our governments completely transparent. THAT would be the most radical departure in all of human history and the foxes will resist it to the death.

I expect the same old same old myself. If this is a real Depression as you say, then I expect global collapse will be followed by global bloodshed as beggars and choosers redistribute their agony the old fashioned way. We've all known deep in our innermost fears this would play out one day, its part of the human condition. The ecological term disturbance-regime comes to mind. Just as every forest eventually gets whacked by a wildfire every human economy gets whacked by a depression. I'm reminded of Woody Allen's statement; "I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens". I don't imagine anyone wants to be next to the fan when the shit hits it either.

We really need to stop throwing people into the streets. I couldn't help but notice how the word deadbeat found its way into news stories about the Bank of Canada's warning of imminent mortgage foreclosures. Sooner or later we will reach a critical mass of people who have lost their job and home because of finacial woes of forces completely beyond their control or influence. I doubt they will react positively to being called or treated like deadbeats and why should they?

Edited December 13, 2008 by eyeball

[Topaz]

IF Alberta need a hand up from Ottawa then they should get it because just like the auto sector, it was the economy that is taking them down or should I say OPEC is running them out of business. I do have some questions though, what happened to the billions Alberta was getting from the oil sands, or were they? IF the oil sands stop completely because of oil prices, how well off is Alberta? This just proves that every province NEEDS Ottawa and therefore Canada.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Well folks, its not Alberta or Ontario and Quebec or anywhere else that will get money from the feds. Its the corporations that get the money people. This is a wealth transfer from tax payers to business.

People need to understand that what is going on is a severe case of shifting ideologies. Forget capitalism and communism, this is about the rise of transnational corporations and global economies. Citizens only matter to the extent of their ability to preform services for these corporations. To see the reality of the situation you need to understand that the shift in income taxes has reversed from a majority share being paid by business to a majority share being paid by citizens. This is happening all over the world, not merely just here.

Governments are literally sponsored by corporate interests, their members supported with all they need by other than the citizens. This is comparable to how DeBeers uses folks to find diamonds. They cover the costs then they take control, all agreed to ahead of time by the prospector and the company. This latest round of corporate welfare is the first mistake of those in control. So greedy are they that they are willing to become visible in order to come out of the dark to collect their money. Before this, they were in the shadows. We all knew they were there, but you could prove nothing.

This is no mere conspiracy theory people, this is the reality of our times. Take a look at the past and present members of the board of directors of the Carlyle Group. Look at what they do and what they invest in, some of it is visible and some isn't. The important thing is who is and was on the board of directors. Things are not what they seem folks. This isn't about the lives of autoworkers, its about the profits and investments of the most affluent of citizens from around the world.

[fellowtraveller]

The Alberta oil patch workers are some of the biggest pot smokers in the country.

This is certainly not true.

The oilpatch in general has far more extensive compulsory drug testing than just about any other industry.

No doubt there are pot smokers in the biz, but they have to be careful not to get caught with a mandatory pee test or they are done like dinner and looking for a job.