SHOULD Canada break up?

[Alberta_Blue]

i just want to point out one quick fact about the auto industry

say a car in the US costs us as canadians $15,000 to buy direct from the US

now that would be nice wouldn't it? but this is how it works

we have a unionized middle man to help out the US... lets us GM as the example

you have GM America, and GM Canada

GM America tells all of GM including GM canada what to produce and how much.

GM America then sells the vehicles that are produced to their companies, such as GM Canada

so now GM Canada buys the vehicle say for $22,500 to ensure GM America is making their money for selling the vehicle... after that GM Canada needs to sell the vehicle to all the GM dealers across canada, and they also need to make sure they make enough profit off each vehicle to ensure all their staff, overhead, and everything else in the world under business is covered.. so lets say GM Canada now sells that vehicle for $30,000...

why the Heck is this going on? its something our trusty Liberals have set up with all their wisdom in leading this country... the reason why i know this and how it works is because i work for a equipment company, where we just recently removed our "Canadian" middle man (good thing our company is based out of Japan) and now we buy from the American company direct where we are saving on average 15% on every machine purchased direct from the US.

Now having said all that, our business doesn't have the same trade laws as the auto industry, but if we were able to get rid of these stupid costs and revenue generators, the average canadian would be able to buy more car for their buck, or save more buck for their car, therefore increased consumption

but hey, lets let the liberals make sure that they screw this up by throwing out stimulus packages to big companies instead of giving tax breaks to corporations to ensure they do their spending and ensuring we have jobs and then consumption happens... what a weird idea, musta been a conservative to think that one up

GO HARPER!!!

[jdobbin]

not trying to make excuses, but its evident that BC, AB, SK, MB could successfully separate and not have to rely 1 bit on the East for anything

So does that mean you will be only voting separatist from now on? If not, why not?

[BC_chick]

Hey Jerry,

I just tried googling to see what polls indicate about Albertans' view of separation, but I could not find any recent info. Do you (or anyone else) have recent stats on the issue?

If most of you wanna go, I don't see why the ROC should say no....

Edited December 5, 2008 by BC_chick

[Smallc]

If most of you wanna go, I don't see why the ROC should say no....

Well, a clear majority. So, 60 - 75%

[Smallc]

So in other words, you didn't want a good answer since you didn't listen to it anyway.

[BC_chick]

Well, a clear majority. So, 60 - 75%

That high eh? I don't know all the details surrounding AB separation, I know Canada bought Rupert's Land and technically it owns Alberta, but doesn't international law override such a national policy if it's the case where their will is self-determination?

Don't get me wrong, I do believe we're a family for better or for worse. But I don't believe in confining my family members into being a part of something they clearly don't want to be a part of.

And to be honest, after what I witnessed over the last couple of days, I wouldn't mind saying good riddance to the province either. That'll take a nice conservative chunk out of the number of seats in parliament and maybe we can finally break this deadlock that doesn't seem to wanna go away.

Edited December 5, 2008 by BC_chick

[jdobbin]

Only a benefit if they're not on the dole - an arguable point here in this country.

Can't think of a nation that doesn't move around money all over for a variety of reasons and support including the U.S. I don't think of it as on the dole. Money is moved around Alberta too, no? Are those in isolated areas on the dole or is to ensure that certain standards are met province-wide?

Reputation? I'd rather trade the reputation in for cold hard cash any day of the week. What industries, by the way? And please....PLEASE don't hurt your own ause by saying "Bombardier"....ick. And if you mention th auto industry I think I'll start laughing so hard my head will blow up. The auto industry in Ontario is a creation of the government. We could do the same thing if we were so stupid: erect big tariffs and force the "big 3" (if they even exist anymore hahahahahaha) to set up plants in Pacificalta.

I was thinking of Northern Telecom, Research in Motion and the like.

One very good point - but not insurmountable. Besides, if we separated it's not as if Royal, BNS, CIBC et. al. would roll up and leave.

But would Alberta allow non-Albertan banks to have a very large chunk of the business.

How about the dollar? Keeping that?

Wouldn't disap[pear with independence.

Would be more difficult with immigration and tourism that created red tape.

Decent point - might be some tariffs erected to move goods to halifax for shipping. BUt I'd rather pay a few tariffs than subsidize Ontario and Quebec for the rest of my life.

Ontario is looking to collect money for the first time in it history. I don't expect that will last.

Manufacturing is going to China. Forever. Give it up already, Ontario.

The higher the energy transportation costs, the more likely repatriation of manufacturing is.

That would be our choice. If we did choose to nationlize, it would be superior due to our wealth.

Sounds even more expensive whatever the choice is.

ugh. I think I just swallowed my own vomit.

CPP is one of the only funded national pension plans in the world. Even most companies cannot say that.

so? the norwegian passport. the trinidadian passport. the Alberta Passport....etc....

Carry the same weight as the Canadian passport? I guess that is debatable.

The Pacificalta (working title haha) bill of rights.

Would some in Alberta want a charter?

The supreme court of Pacificalta

All elected?

Rich? The country's constitution is 27 years old.

If that is when you think Canada started, I guess you would think so.

Great new rivalry between the two new teams.

And losses to greater national teams out there probably

Culture doesn't go away with new boundaries. Same places. New names, new borders. Great new vacation plans!

I think that is what you probably dismiss too easily: the emotional attachment to country.

As far as the disagreements go, where is the capital? How are seats distributed? A Senate? Are provinces divisible? Can First Nations opt out and stay with Canada? Does each municipality have a vote?

[Smallc]

Ontario is looking to collect money for the first time in it history. I don't expect that will last.

Not to mention that it will still be a HUGE net contributor to the country. Its only getting a tiny fraction of what it sends out back.

[Smallc]

That high eh? I don't know all the details surrounding AB separation,

It used to be that a vote wasn't needed for Alberta, but the clarity act says that any province wishing to leave has to have a clear majority in favour. The act is based on international law.

[BC_chick]

Here's some info from 2005, it's actually not in the 50-60 range or else they would've acted on it by now. Well, at least it wasn't that high 4 years ago:

The magazine's survey found that 35.6 per cent of respondents from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia agreed that "Western Canadians should begin to explore the idea of forming their own country."

The poll claims that Albertans, at 42 per cent, were most likely to consider independence, followed by Saskatchewan at 31.9 per cent.

"Westerners are very frustrated with their position in Confederation,"

Thank God British Columbians aren't anywhere even near the 50% line. As much as I love this province I'd be outta here so fast if my country was BC, AB and MB.

Edited December 6, 2008 by BC_chick

[Smallc]

Thanks God British Columbians aren't anywhere even near the 50% line. As much as I love this province I'd be outta here so fast if my country was BC, AB and MB.

So would I. I would move to Ontario in a heartbeat. I don't believe the poll anyway. Not to mention that considering separation is not the same as actually voting for it.

[reasonoverpassion]

The answer is NO to those who advocate separation rather than sharing, who advocate isolation rather than fellowship, to those who -basically-advocate pride rather than love, because love involves coming together and meeting others halfway, and working with them to build a better world.

Pierre Elliot Trudeau Remarks, Paul Sauve Arena, Montreal, May 14, 1980

[BC_chick]

So would I. I would move to Ontario in a heartbeat. I don't believe the poll anyway. Not to mention that considering separation is not the same as actually voting for it.

Good point about the wording. And I agree, the numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. From the same article:

The survey was commissioned by Western Standard magazine, a right-leaning bimonthly news and opinion magazine founded in 2004 by Ezra Levant, a former Reform Party and Alliance Party activist.

[BC_chick]

The answer is NO to those who advocate separation rather than sharing, who advocate isolation rather than fellowship, to those who -basically-advocate pride rather than love, because love involves coming together and meeting others halfway, and working with them to build a better world.

Pierre Elliot Trudeau Remarks, Paul Sauve Arena, Montreal, May 14, 1980

Of course Trudeau is right, diplomacy and middle-ground is a better solution for obvious reasons. But if we can't get there, I don't believe in holding a province ransom if 60% don't want to be part of the country.

That's basically what I ask the OP about the stats... IOW, it's not the members of this forum he needs to convince... it's Albertans in general.

Edited December 6, 2008 by BC_chick

[Smallc]

I like that so much I'm going to steal it for my signature.

[BC_chick]

How do you like mine?

Edited December 6, 2008 by BC_chick

[Smallc]

How do you like mine?

Well now I look like a thief.

[reasonoverpassion]

Thanks Smallc--Here's another

"Who speaks for Canada? Our strength lies in our national will to live and work together as a people. Weaken that will, that spirit of community and you weaken Canada. Weaken Canada, and you damage all the parts, no matter how rich some of those parts might be. My friends, you must stand up for Canada, we must see that there is a national government that has the courage to do so as well."

Pierre Elliot Trudeau, Remarks, Confederation Dinner, Toronto, November 19, 1979

[Smallc]

I like that one even better. Where are you getting them from? I have looked but I have trouble finding good quotes about Canada.

[reasonoverpassion]

I like that one even better. Where are you getting them from? I have looked but I have trouble finding good quotes about Canada.

The book is called The Essential Trudeau Edited by Ron Graham published in 1998 by M&S in Toronto--Just a group of quotes from PET.

Trudeau did love this country and wasn't afraid to say so

[Smallc]

Trudeau did love this country and wasn't afraid to say so

No matter what other things people say about him, that is very true.

[BC_chick]

Well now I look like a thief.

I got a better one...

[kimmy]

Personally, my favorites are "fuddle-duddle", "why should I sell your wheat?" and "It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from there."

-k

[eyeball]

Here's some info from 2005, it's actually not in the 50-60 range or else they would've acted on it by now. Well, at least it wasn't that high 4 years ago:

Thank God British Columbians aren't anywhere even near the 50% line. As much as I love this province I'd be outta here so fast if my country was BC, AB and MB.

I like the idea of bioregionlism and I'd be more inclined to separate BC from AB and MB. Cascadia seemed like a natural evolution although the Alaska/Pallin spectacle has me wondering if joining Alaska would really be in the best interests of the left coast.

If I was still a commercial salmon fisherman I'd probably say yes, because I remember the days when US and Canadian fishermen used to fish amongst one another out beyond the 12 mile limit. We could fish off Alaska, Washington and Oregon etc and they could fish off BC. The day the 200 mile limit came into effect is the day fishing seriously went into decline. Instead of just competing with one another out on the ocean, sectoral lobbyists moved the competition into the political arena. BC fishermen lost because Ottawa is in charge of our fisheries. Washington, Oregon and Alaska fishermen won because their fisheries are managed by each state. Its just that simple. Our season rapidly went from being year round to two months and it can now be measured in days if not hours.

Today, Ottawa is negotiating with the US who have said they will give DFO $30 million bucks to get rid of the last handful of salmon trollers that are left on the west coast of Vancouver Island. DFO is negotiating on behalf of Canada and Ottawa likes the deal. US negotiators are negotiating on behalf of Washington State, Oregon and California fishermen and they really like the deal. Alaska is sitting pretty as usual given they still get first crack at everyone else's fish no matter what happens.

Did I forget to mention that Washington State, Oregon and California salmon fishermen can still fish off Alaska like they always did? BC as usual is still stuck between a softie and a hard place. I've been a separatist for years because being apart of Canada has been a profoundly frustrating excersize in futility not to mention injustice.

I could blow Canada off in a moment and sleep like a baby. That's pretty much what it did to us after all.

Edited December 7, 2008 by eyeball

[-VMG-]

So because 60% of people in alberta want to separate means the 40% that don't get no say whatsoever?

I would say you need much more than a majority to seperate from Canada... more around the 85-90% mark.

Not to mention most Albertans are stupid.Known fact. I live here and they are definitely stupid.

They also don't even bother to consider the legalities and formalities or separation... they just want to separate because "the east" is being meanies and wanna take our oil like it's somehow our resource because we found it and we shouldn't have to share.

Albertans are selfish pieces of garbage. They have no say.

Well i shouldn't say ALL... but the majority for sure.

Edited December 7, 2008 by -VMG-