Liberals looking for new leader

[Mr.Canada]

Keep Harper in power and Ontario will be on the have not list inside of five years.

They were headed in that direction long before the RH Stephan Harper came into the PMO.

Did you follow economics 3 years ago? Go look the library and look at some microfilm newspapers from 3+ years ago.

I know that everything is our PM's fault but in reality the Liberals were in the PMO for 49 of the last 58 years go talk to them.

[noahbody]

ontario still has a lot of companies but likely you people out west don't bother to buy canadian.. so you don't support your fellow canadians

Name one Canadian product that westerners don't buy, that people from Ontario do.

also your oil does more than help it jacks up the health care cost

Really. Show the relation of increasing health care costs to oil prices. Can't do it can you? Oil revenue pays for healthcare in Alberta and other provinces via transfer payments.

provides us with smog warnings

Apparently you don't have a clue what produces smog even though you live in Ontario

gives us cancer and all sorts of other evils.

Thanks for putting that Patsy Cline song in my head.

you think money is the #1 issue in the world.. it isn't. But that is the only conservative issue,

Actually the conservative government has done a lot regarding nature/wildlife preservation. The also developed the Clean Air Act to tackle smog.

that and forcing people to be slaves - or atleast wage slaves with no chance to enjoy life outside of a banal moderate existence.

.

Do you get all your news from your union boss? Work for GM by chance?

[Oleg Bach]

Keep Harper in power and Ontario will be on the have not list inside of five years.

Perhaps you can guide Harper? We assume that those in power are know it alls - they are human and are limited...IF you have any suggestions on how to NOT become a HAVE NOT - then send the suggestion along to Ottawa - People are waiting for good advice...democracy is a participationary concept...assist - the term Prime Minister means first servant - we are all servants - serve!

[Mad_Michael]

The only problem with Bob Rae is that it gives the conservatives a lot of ammunition to use against the Liberal party. A former NDP premier now the leader of the Liberal party? Then again the Liberal's always claim NDP-like policies during elections then convert to a more conservative governing style. So overall it seems to be a toss up. Still I think it's best to go with a safer choice than Bob Rae.

Bob Rae is the ONLY credible candidate with charisma.

That counts for a lot in my book. All the best policies in the world won't get you a seat in the House without some charisma to attract some voters. Facile and shallow it is, but that's reality.

Dion's biggest failing was charisma. Harper is also very weak on charisma (as is Iggy).

Gordon Brown's troubles in Britain are all about charisma - Blair had some, Brown doesn't.

Secondly, I don't think the Liberals need to worry about the 'fiscal' issue at all. The Liberal party has SOLID and IMPRESSIVE credentials on the fiscal side. Two years from now after a serious recession that we are entering, the Conservatives are going to look VERY vulnerable after blowing the massive $13 billion fiscal surplus they inherited from the fiscally responsible Liberals.

This is not an issue that the Conservatives are going to be able to leverage against anyone - they are going to be on the defensive over their deficits at that time. Fact is, it looks like the Conservatives have already blown the whole surplus and are dangerously tipping into deficit territory right now - even before the recession hits full force here. Recessions tend to make deficits much worse than planned...

Edited October 22, 2008 by Mad_Michael

[Mad_Michael]

Your point is what?

Without all that oil money, Ontario would have nothing for their pet programs. Billions of oil dollars flow to Ontario and nothing flows back.

Please cite a credible source for this (I assume you are talking about federal transfer payments and if so, your point is absurd).

Ontario has been a net payer into Ottawa for more than a century.

[Oleg Bach]

Rae is a wanna be song writer - I don't know how dedicated he really is to politics - much like Harper who would rather have been an NHL hero....and that false American "intellectual" Ignatius...well - saying you are an intellectual does not make it so - besides do we need more acedemic egg heads? I say deslove the liberal party and take back the city state of Toronto and convert the gayified by the sword - figuratively speaking - Look at McGinty - Mr. hyper active snoot boy has finally worn himself out - He looks terrible - lets get an honest woman or man to run our city state called Toronto - the liberals will soon not only be banning guns but banning free speech and the reality that is Jane and Finch will spread like a plaugue - Liberals have to be saved from themselves....and the fact that they have no leader is GOOD - I say let them fall.....The liberals are incapable of social justice because they are only interested in Orwellian concepts of power - benevolent abuse...

[Oleg Bach]

Rae is a wanna be song writer - I don't know how dedicated he really is to politics - much like Harper who would rather have been an NHL hero....and that false American "intellectual" Ignatius...well - saying you are an intellectual does not make it so - besides do we need more acedemic egg heads? I say deslove the liberal party and take back the city state of Toronto and convert the gayified by the sword - figuratively speaking - Look at McGinty - Mr. hyper active snoot boy has finally worn himself out - He looks terrible - lets get an honest woman or man to run our city state called Toronto - the liberals will soon not only be banning guns but banning free speech and the reality that is Jane and Finch will spread like a plaugue - Liberals have to be saved from themselves....and the fact that they have no leader is GOOD - I say let them fall.....The liberals are incapable of social justice because they are only interested in Orwellian concepts of power - benevolent abuse...

ALSO- there was a drug bust at a club in Toronto - an astonishing amount of brain burning dope was found on the floor - and the party goers were mostly white anglo girls and guys - the cops said that immigrants who originated in China - brought the dope in - thanks to warm and fuzzy liberal immigration policy - we now have people who have come to kill our children and profit form it...not smart

[Mad_Michael]

ALSO- there was a drug bust at a club in Toronto - an astonishing amount of brain burning dope was found on the floor - and the party goers were mostly white anglo girls and guys - the cops said that immigrants who originated in China - brought the dope in - thanks to warm and fuzzy liberal immigration policy - we now have people who have come to kill our children and profit form it...not smart

Priceless.

Cops raid a nightclub and you want turn that into a rant against 'non-white' immigrants?

Racism is bullshit.

[Oleg Bach]

Priceless.

Cops raid a nightclub and you want turn that into a rant against 'non-white' immigrants?

Racism is bullshit.

No rant - Asians have come to feed off our stupid kids - there were 20 million dozes of ecstacy that came in a container from China - and China was not reprimanded - you are a fool -

[William Ashley]

Name one Canadian product that westerners don't buy, that people from Ontario do.

TTC passes. Raptors Tickets. Waterloo's organic waste. Cars from Cambridges Toyota plant. The liberal party, need I name more. Fact is your John Deer Tractors are even made in China now.

Really. Show the relation of increasing health care costs to oil prices. Can't do it can you? Oil revenue pays for healthcare in Alberta and other provinces via transfer payments.

I'm not really sure how to link oil prices to health care only that oil consumption and use increases health care costs by putting more carcinegens in the food supply and air supply. Also leading to an earlier onset of conditions like heart attack and strokes by clogging the blood supply and hardening arteries with chemical deposits.

Apparently you don't have a clue what produces smog even though you live in Ontario

You are in denile, a lot of smog in Ontario drifts up from the US manufacturers.

http://www.electricityforum.com/news/jun05...ginOntario.html

These manufacturors use petrochemicals = oil - gasoline and others, photochemical smog is primarily caused by traffic congestion but drifts a very large distance.

I know what I am talking about, you clearly don't understand industrial science or morphology of climate.

Actually the conservative government has done a lot regarding nature/wildlife preservation.

Thanks would you kindly supply a list of these lot of things.

The also developed the Clean Air Act to tackle smog.

how does this clean air act go to help stop US smog from entering canada - does not exporting to the US oil or chemicals used for industrial practices that produce smog in canada get included in this?

Do you get all your news from your union boss? Work for GM by chance?

No, I read my news sources from a variety of sources. And I do not work for General Motors.

[Oleg Bach]

Futhermore my friend - race denotes family or extended family - There are Jewish mafias - Anglo ones - Italian Mafia - and so on and so on - and there are Asian gangs and black Jamacian gangs - they are loyal to their clan or nationality or "race" - and you are so disloyal that you are willing to stand back and watch as some interlopers addict our young to cocaine and meth...you must call a spade a spade - and I know for a fact - of a bar that is run by an asian family - they do not give a damn for the alcholic and dope addicted anglo patrons that they suck dry for their hard earned pay - Some immigrants come to Canada to contribute - others do not - call that fact racism if you want - wait till you have kids and some jerk is going to consume your offspring for profit - You won't approve - but of course you are not going to breed because you are weak...

[Mad_Michael]

you are a fool -

Your argument consists of making a personal insult.

No doubt I'm at Mapleleafweb now.

Why is it that I always find Canadian political forums to be so much more partisan, uncivil and insulting than US political forums?

Goodbye once again. I'll be back in another six months to see if this forum is still toxic and partisan as it has been and still is.

I seek intelligent discussion of Canadian political issues. I don't find it here. Only insults. Tiresome.

[Oleg Bach]

Your argument consists of making a personal insult.

No doubt I'm at Mapleleafweb now.

Why is it that I always find Canadian political forums to be so much more partisan, uncivil and insulting than US political forums?

Goodbye once again. I'll be back in another six months to see if this forum is still toxic and partisan as it has been and still is.

I seek intelligent discussion of Canadian political issues. I don't find it here. Only insults. Tiresome.

I smell a lack of passion on your part - And you are manipultive...what you have done is denounce me and are attempting to coerce the other writers by taking your ball and going home. Post something that you consider NON-toxic - or non - partisan - If I or this forum has a fault or defect - educate me or us....But no - you walk away....so why did you come to begin with - perhaps to insult and leave...

[drewski]

Bob Rae is the ONLY credible candidate with charisma.

That counts for a lot in my book. All the best policies in the world won't get you a seat in the House without some charisma to attract some voters. Facile and shallow it is, but that's reality.

Dion's biggest failing was charisma. Harper is also very weak on charisma (as is Iggy).

listen to some of Frank McKenna's speeches. He's got TONS of charisma.

Secondly, I don't think the Liberals need to worry about the 'fiscal' issue at all. The Liberal party has SOLID and IMPRESSIVE credentials on the fiscal side. Two years from now after a serious recession that we are entering, the Conservatives are going to look VERY vulnerable after blowing the massive $13 billion fiscal surplus they inherited from the fiscally responsible Liberals.

I disagree. the Liberal Party HAD good fiscal credentials, but thats eroded away in the public's view. Just look at how the public took the idea of the Green Shift. People don't remember the budget balancing days, they remember spending billions here and there to buy votes.

Harper will nail Rae's fiscal ass to the ground by spinning stories of Rae's free-spending NDP way when he was Premier.

McKenna on the other hand has the proven fiscal prowess Canada needs

[William Ashley]

listen to some of Frank McKenna's speeches. He's got TONS of charisma.

I disagree. the Liberal Party HAD good fiscal credentials, but thats eroded away in the public's view. Just look at how the public took the idea of the Green Shift. People don't remember the budget balancing days, they remember spending billions here and there to buy votes.

Harper will nail Rae's fiscal ass to the ground by spinning stories of Rae's free-spending NDP way when he was Premier.

McKenna on the other hand has the proven fiscal prowess Canada needs

So why don't the liberal say the minister of finance will be McKenna... thus insuring Rae isn't the one who is totally controlling the budget. Thus getting both the savy of Rae and the financial capacity of McKenna. This PM only bs is blurring the government of Canada so much.. the control freaking of Harper only extends the image the PM calls all the shots. Atleast on the public front the McGuinty liberals for instance actually let their ministers handle their ministries issues... seemingly .. I would think ministerial issues would only come to play when there was disagreement in cabinet.. but the budget is suppose to be an accumulation of requests from the different ministries.. obviously both the finance minister's role is very much to assist in managing the economic system. The PM is there to insure that the ministry posts are filled by capable people, and hold together the cabinet so it is a functioning body - this is another reason I disagree with the party sysem because the head of the party also is usually PM, yet I think a seperate whip or leader of the party for party concerns in parliament might work but of course differnt roles have emerged, there is a lot of party centralization historically and that is really unfortunate.

[drewski]

So why don't the liberal say the minister of finance will be McKenna... thus insuring Rae isn't the one who is totally controlling the budget. Thus getting both the savy of Rae and the financial capacity of McKenna. This PM only bs is blurring the government of Canada so much.. the control freaking of Harper only extends the image the PM calls all the shots. Atleast on the public front the McGuinty liberals for instance actually let their ministers handle their ministries issues... seemingly .. I would think ministerial issues would only come to play when there was disagreement in cabinet.. but the budget is suppose to be an accumulation of requests from the different ministries.. obviously both the finance minister's role is very much to assist in managing the economic system. The PM is there to insure that the ministry posts are filled by capable people, and hold together the cabinet so it is a functioning body - this is another reason I disagree with the party sysem because the head of the party also is usually PM, yet I think a seperate whip or leader of the party for party concerns in parliament might work but of course differnt roles have emerged, there is a lot of party centralization historically and that is really unfortunate.

simple, I don't believe McKenna would come back for anything less then the party leadership. and again, with Rae I believe there is the issue of electabilty in Ontario and across Canada

[noahbody]

Waterloo's organic waste.

For the same reasons, no one buys your posts.

Cars from Cambridges Toyota plant.

Are you saying westerners don't buy canadian made toyotas?

The liberal party, need I name more.

Why do you keep bringing up waste?

Fact is your John Deer Tractors are even made in China now.

Fact is you don't know what you're talking about. John Deere does have a factory in China, but it makes low horsepower tractors.

http://www.stackyard.com/news/2007/06/mach...eere_benye.html

I'm not really sure how to link oil prices to health care

That's clear.

Also leading to an earlier onset of conditions like heart attack and strokes by clogging the blood supply and hardening arteries with chemical deposits.

How about a link? By looking for one you might educate yourself.

These manufacturors use petrochemicals = oil - gasoline and others, photochemical smog is primarily caused by traffic congestion but drifts a very large distance.

Why not blame the oil and gas industry for drinking and driving?

Thanks would you kindly supply a list of these lot of things.

Sure. Don't have the time this second though.

how does this clean air act go to help stop US smog from entering canada

There are cross-border agreements relating to this. Should more be done? Yes. Unfortunately the GW movement has hijacked the environmental focus in the country.

- does not exporting to the US oil or chemicals used for industrial practices that produce smog in canada get included in this?

No. They'll just do business elsewhere.

Edited October 22, 2008 by noahbody

[guyser]

Why not blame the oil and gas industry for drinking and driving?

Well...if there wasn't any gas to be had................

[Argus]

Your argument consists of making a personal insult.

No doubt I'm at Mapleleafweb now.

Why is it that I always find Canadian political forums to be so much more partisan, uncivil and insulting than US political forums?

Goodbye once again. I'll be back in another six months to see if this forum is still toxic and partisan as it has been and still is.

I seek intelligent discussion of Canadian political issues. I don't find it here. Only insults. Tiresome.

Phhtt. Good riddance. We don't need any more "Mad" men. We have Oleg.

[madmax]

Without all that oil money, Ontario would have nothing for their pet programs. Billions of oil dollars flow to Ontario and nothing flows back.

Money has been flowing out of Ontario since Confederation. The pet programs were to help poor Provinces like Alberta develop their oil fields. Transfer payments flowed to Alberta,. Ontario has never been a have not Province, and the transfer, the Equalization funds flow out not in, even during the year when Ontario qualified, the system was changed and Ontario agreed.

A formal system of equalization payments was first introduced in 1957. The idea was based on the proposals of American economist James M. Buchanan and they were introduced mainly to help the struggling Atlantic provinces who were seeing low rates of growth and high rate of emigration to central Canada.

The original program had the goal of giving each province the same per capita revenue as the two wealthiest provinces, Ontario and British Columbia, in three tax bases: personal income taxes, corporate income taxes and succession duties (inheritance taxes). Five years later, 50 per cent of natural resource revenues were included as the fourth tax base. At the same time, however, the standard of the two wealthiest provinces was lowered to the national average. In 1967 the system was redesigned to work with every government revenue scheme with the exception of energy, this gave Canada by far the world's most generous system of equalization payments.

The rise in energy prices and the resulting increase in provincial natural resource royalties in the late 1970s created several problems for the Equalization formula. The need for amendments to the formula became clear when the traditional "have" province of Ontario qualified for equalization payments in 1978. This result went against the spirit of the system and would have led to substantial costs for the federal government; it was agreed that Ontario should be excluded from receiving payments.

At the National Research Council, extracting oil from the Athabaska Tar Sands was financed by all of Canada’s taxpayers – and from 1957 to 1965 Alberta was a recipient of equalization payments

You can dispute whether that was money wasted or not. It is past history.

[madmax]

Phhtt. Good riddance. We don't need any more "Mad" men. We have Oleg.

Hey I ain't going anywhere...

mad

[noahbody]

Well...if there wasn't any gas to be had................

That's why I made the comment.

[Mr.Canada]

Listen, we could finger point til' the cows come home and no one would change anyone's mind. What we need is some solidarity. We all obviously love this country and are passionate about it and want to see it succeed. We wouldn't be so argumentative if this weren't true.

Mr. Harper needs to listen to all ideas from all sides, even going so far as to perhaps have some smart people from the opposing side in on some committees to find some solutions to our problems that we can all live with. I've grown tired of the constant bickering, we are mimicking the last session. This is a new session we need new ways to accomplish sustainable goals.

[Shakeyhands]

Your point is what?

That is off topic and not in the scope of this discussion anyways.

So again what is your point?

In case you cannot read the topic header. it says "Liberals looking for new leader, Dion announces resignation"

Well I think he was answering to your assertion back me about Harper once having been a Liberal, glad it didn't start you of on a tangent anyway....

[normanchateau]

Well I think he was answering to your assertion back me about Harper once having been a Liberal, glad it didn't start you of on a tangent anyway....

Then Harper abandoned the Liberals and joined the Progressive Conservatives. Then he left the Progressive Conservatives because he was outraged with Mulroney's spending. Then he joined Reform because they were fiscal conservatives. Then he left Reform to head the National Citizens Coalition after Manning replaced Harper with Grubel as Reform finance critic.

Now Harper has increased spending by percentages which make the Liberals and PCs look tight-fisted. What an incredible flip flopping hypocrite he has turned out to be.