What if we agreed to re-locate Israel?

[Mortui]

The big bee in the bonnet of Ahmadinejad and the other mid-east kooks seems to be Israel - it's existence in the Mid East.

Personally, I think it's just a lightening rod - the same way Hitler directed hatred toward the Jews as a method of dictatorship ("direction of popular discontent").

Having seen enough footage and read enough direct quotes from radical fundamentalist Muslims, I'm convinced their goal goes a lot deeper than getting Israel out of Mid East.

It's pretty clear these people hate anyone who isn't like them. They want them dead or converted or subordinated. And they want to destroy freedom, the USA, and conquer the world. That is pretty clear.

I think it would be a very interesting test to see how these kooks would react if we all of a sudden agreed to move Israel to, say Germany.

Man. If all of these nutjobs weren't floating on oil, how wonderful it would be to face them down in the absence of an Israeli state.

Can you say obliteration?

The reason Israel was created where it is is because of Jerusalem. It is believed to be the Jewish homeland by the Jewish people. Israel itself wouldn't agree to that. And we don't have the authority to just pick up Israel and say that it is now in Germany. How would you even propose to do such a thing? There's no way to get all those people out of the area safely.

[jbg]

Israel is also a modern construct. As modern as the UN mandate that created it. I am asking questions because either I do not know, or what to confirm what I think/know.

Israel (or Judea) is actually an ancient "construct". Why is it that the Israelis are deemed "oppressors" when they want a State but every other non-viable "stan" in the south of the former USSR or in Southern Asia deserves self-determination? Ditto every single thugocracy in Africa, with zero national history, no cohesiveness and no economy. Edited November 14, 2008 by jbg

[White Doors]

Israel is also a modern construct. As modern as the UN mandate that created it. I am asking questions because either I do not know, or what to confirm what I think/know.

It is?

Funny, I thought Israel & Judea were also countries a few times thousands of years ago? No?

I guess all those history books must be propoganda too...

Is this ignorance on yoru part willfull or unintentional?

How interesting.

[Oleg Bach]

It is totally Ironic that American National Corporate Socialism - supports Israel - Imagine - The modern Nazi party is the care taker of Israel....odd how things turn out. Israel should not be relocated - How can you re-locate anciet history - but it should be allowed to take it's natrual position in the middle east - Shemites - Arab and Jew should be forced to get along - this 2000 year old feud is tiresome...assimulate the Arabs and the Jews - they are the same tribe - To brothers arguing over who stole a basket of carrots and watching this fight evolve to the level of nuclear weapons is insane - I say spank them both and send them to bed untill they behave.

[BC_chick]

Israel (or Judea) is actually an ancient "construct". Why is it that the Israelis are deemed "oppressors" when they want a State but every other non-viable "stan" in the south of the former USSR or in Southern Asia deserves self-determination? Ditto every single thugocracy in Africa, with zero national history, no cohesiveness and no economy.

What a stupid comparison, that's apples and oranges.

1) Because unlike the population of the 'stans', at the time of creation, Jews were a minority in Israel by a huge margin. For the 'stans' the will of the people for self-determination is not coming at the cost for the majority of the population.

2) Another unfair comparison is that no 'stan' diaspora exists and therefore when a 'stan' is created, the locals aren't getting their houses bulldozed over to make room for the 'stans' from all over the world.

Oh, and btw, nobody calls Israel 'oppressors' for wanting self-determination. If they do, it's usually a reference to the abuse of power that rarely ever gets reprimanded, and the walls that are built to keep Palestinians in their ghettos (oh, how soon they forgot about ghettos).

Edited November 15, 2008 by BC_chick

[Mortui]

It is?

Funny, I thought Israel & Judea were also countries a few times thousands of years ago? No?

I guess all those history books must be propoganda too...

Is this ignorance on yoru part willfull or unintentional?

How interesting.

Yes, it is. They were countries thousands of years AGO for a reason. They ceased to exist. Israel as it is is a modern construct. That is knowledge, not ignorance.

jbg, who labeled the Jews(they weren't Israelis at that point?) oppressors? It may be said that the land given to them was inappropriately dished out. Like when Europe was building empires in Africa. The territory was drawn up without regard to the people already there. The 'stans' wanting self-determination was completely different. The people in that area are determining their future as a nation. The people IN THAT AREA.

[Mortui]

Deleted double post.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Mortui

[jbg]

jbg, who labeled the Jews(they weren't Israelis at that point?) oppressors?

I did not label Israelis "oppressors" and either you know that or Canadian is not your first language. I was pointing to the hypocritically high and impossible standards Israel and the Jews are held to.

It may be said that the land given to them was inappropriately dished out. Like when Europe was building empires in Africa. The territory was drawn up without regard to the people already there. The 'stans' wanting self-determination was completely different. The people in that area are determining their future as a nation. The people IN THAT AREA.

No, it was thugs wishing a piece of UN booty. Beign a "stan" is of little interest unless there is oil or aid money for the thug-in-chief to steal.

[kengs333]

I did not label Israelis "oppressors" and either you know that or Canadian is not your first language. I was pointing to the hypocritically high and impossible standards Israel and the Jews are held to.

This is typical. It seems to me that every time Israel is held to the same standard, odious accusations of anti-Semitism start to fly. You have to admit that this whole notion of considering itself the "choosen people" kind of might have something to do with the way people perceive Jews.

[GostHacked]

It is?

Funny, I thought Israel & Judea were also countries a few times thousands of years ago? No?

I guess all those history books must be propoganda too...

Is this ignorance on yoru part willfull or unintentional?

How interesting.

Just call it ignorance on my part, and it is not intentional. Just not much of an ancient history buff. Ancient history and religion are not my forte.

[DogOnPorch]

Just call it ignorance on my part, and it is not intentional. Just not much of an ancient history buff. Ancient history and religion are not my forte.

Google makes it good. Here's a map of the region circa 1000BC. The Arabs are relative newcomers to the area arriving around 630AD or so. Before the Arabs arrived, the area was part of the Byzantine Empire...a mixture of Greek and Roman culture.

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Go and do likewise.

---Jesus of Nazareth

[Mortui]

I did not label Israelis "oppressors" and either you know that or Canadian is not your first language. I was pointing to the hypocritically high and impossible standards Israel and the Jews are held to.

I didn't say you did? I asked where you got that they were labeled oppressors (seeing as you said it in your post). And English is my first language. I live in the U.S.

No, it was thugs wishing a piece of UN booty. Beign a "stan" is of little interest unless there is oil or aid money for the thug-in-chief to steal.

Oh, of course, because nationalist feelings are completely out of the question. The people all WANTED to be dominated by the USSR.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Mortui

[Mortui]

Google makes it good. Here's a map of the region circa 1000BC. The Arabs are relative newcomers to the area arriving around 630AD or so. Before the Arabs arrived, the area was part of the Byzantine Empire...a mixture of Greek and Roman culture.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Go and do likewise.

---Jesus of Nazareth

The Jewish state had been more or less eliminated by the Romans. They regained some freedom under the Byzantine empire, but lost it when the Persians took control. The Byzantines took it back, and still the Jews were oppressed. The Arabs took control of the area in 638 AD. Blah blah blah, more and more oppression of the Jews. Basically, they lost their land. Their country was no more. Period. A Jewish state of Israel was NONexistant. The modern Israel is a modern construct.

[DogOnPorch]

The Jewish state had been more or less eliminated by the Romans. They regained some freedom under the Byzantine empire, but lost it when the Persians took control. The Byzantines took it back, and still the Jews were oppressed. The Arabs took control of the area in 638 AD. Blah blah blah, more and more oppression of the Jews. Basically, they lost their land. Their country was no more. Period. A Jewish state of Israel was NONexistant. The modern Israel is a modern construct.

The same can be said of every nation in the Middle East.

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...and then there's Maude!

[Mortui]

The same can be said of every nation in the Middle East.

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...and then there's Maude!

Yes, thank you.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, thank you.

For what?

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Do I know what rhetorical means??

---Homer Simpson

[Mortui]

For what?

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Do I know what rhetorical means??

---Homer Simpson

For agreeing with me. Israel is a modern construct.

[DogOnPorch]

OK...sure. It's a very old area of civilization...the entire Levant. Changed ownership many times over the centuries. Prehistory probably saw its share of troubles, too, as humans migrated continuously through the area. So, anyways, what's the problem with 'modern constructs' again? Surely you're too young to remember Israel's 'construct' in 1948 (or are you well over 60?). How modern is that? Newfoundland was 'constructed' later....

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Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative.

---William S. Burroughs

[Oleg Bach]

The problem goes back about 2000 years- when the now Iraqis (Babylon) came and took the royal family away from Judea and held them for 70 years - Upon their release and return to Judea _ the legitimate land owner and King - they fabled Jesus the Christ - "King of the Judeans" was resented by Roman authorities as well as the non-Judeans that had come in and occupied the royal lands. So there was a real estate dispute and between the Roman occupiers and the squatters - they killed the King - It was not about proclaiming devine right - or that Jesus declared he was God - It was about land - and this feud over the ownership still continues between the Shemite tribes - Arab and Jew - Nothing good comes out of murdering your own King - or allowing the faciltiation of the murder of a good man.

[jbg]

For agreeing with me. Israel is a modern construct.

Modern "constructs" can, and in this case do, have ancient roots. More importantly, the Jews are a truly separate and unique people. The Arabs that swarmed over the area were a collection of tribes, now sorted into more or less arbitrary "republics".

[M.Dancer]

Modern "constructs" can, and in this case do, have ancient roots. More importantly, the Jews are a truly separate and unique people. The Arabs that swarmed over the area were a collection of tribes, now sorted into more or less arbitrary "republics".

Collection on tribes? Like Dan, Reuban, Judah et al...and republics like Israel and Judea?

[Oleg Bach]

Collection on tribes? Like Dan, Reuban, Judah et al...and republics like Israel and Judea?

The tribe of Judea or (Jew) is a tiny tribe..It was the tribe that Christ belonged to and that he was the rightful King of. Above his head during his execution was inscribed - King Of the Judeans (Jews) . It is written in ancient documents as reportedly spoken by this King - "Those who call themselves Judeans (Jews) are not but of the synagog (gathering) of Satan their father the liar" - this is to para phrase of course. This bit of information is always ignored by Christians and Jews and Arabs alike, but it is the key statement of that age and now.

What this King was saying was - Those that insisted on his demise and removal as the rightful King via requesting an execution though the occupying Romans - were not Jews - but other tribes that had moved into the area and wanted to have the land for their own - illegally. I would safely say that the so-called Jews of today in Israel and else where hold this truth in total disregard and contempt. The Christ hate shown by so-called Jews in the area is not based on religion - it is based on the simple fact that the lands belong to the royal family of Judea - and - that most that call themselves Jews are NOT decended from the Judeans - they are common semites just like the Arabs they so much hate....maybe some DNA testing would be useful to find out who is who...If you are a Judean - you get to stay in Israel - if not - you leave - then the conflict that has lasted 2000 years will end.

[Rue]

Oleg I was enjoying your passages until you slipped in this subjective negative stereotype; "... that most that call themselves Jews are NOT decended from the Judeans - they are common semites just like the Arabs they so much hate..."

Your assumption all Jews hate Arabs is as absurd as saying all Arabs hate Jews. Those kinds of comments that make sweeping negative assumptions as to the beliefs and motives of an entire people being the same is illogical.

[Rue]

Collection on tribes? Like Dan, Reuban, Judah et al...and republics like Israel and Judea?

Jews like Muslims (not Arabs if we are to use the proper analogy) are a wide mix of people. Jews and Muslims both originate from the same Middle East and both have travelled and have inter-mixed to become a rainbow mix of peoples-no Jew or Muslim is any more unique genetically then any other human-we are all mutts-we are all mixed-in terms of culture and ethnic traditions, yes Jews have unique characteristics just as Muslims and Christians and everyone else.

"Arabs" a term incorrectly used to describe all Muslims is about as useful as mixing up the use of the word "Jew" when discussing the perceived, race, ethnicity, or religion of Jewish people.

All an Arab is, is an approximation of people who are descended from the Beduins.

I can't stand how Jew and Arab and Muslim are thrown about incorrectly.

Jews are aboriginal to the Middle East. So are Muslims and Christians. The fact that all three moved and inter-bred does not change that fact.

All three peoples have caucasians, negroids and mongoloids if we must use those old ancient racial classifications.

Each ethnic group in the world insists they are unique. They are but they are also not unique if we look at their dna.

It depends on the construct you want to use to describe people.

The one I use is simeon. The fact that some of us apes have different coloured fur does not mean we aren't all flea infested apes.

[Oleg Bach]

Very nice post until you degraded me to the level of an ape. I maybe releated ot all other life forms on the planet but I am not an ape - I am a human being..not an animal. As long as you attempt to lower humanity to the level of an ape all you will get are horribly highly intelligent monkey men. To give or grant a monkey the intelligence of a human is to endorse the use of weapons for man apes - we have enough of that. It would be more useful to upgrade people to the level of angels and then you may get better positive results. If the Jews - with their horrible old testimonial record along with the Muslims...and the misuse and abuse of Christian doctrine is to continue we will continue to have problems - All secualrism is evil - all relgion is evil - Goodness is God and maybe it's time to do away with tradition and standardize what is good...if there is a resourse called God that emulates goodness - let's utilize that force that generates life - the death thing is not working for us..