Isn't it time to slow down immigration?

[Sir Bandelot]

Maybe you could say that unions have socialist or communist leaning ideals, but I really don't think you could say that a union actually equals communism. Communism is quite an extreme political ideology.

Unions are the backbone of the communist workforce. Trotsky advocated the creation of unions as a means of organizing the proletariat into a national uprising agianst the bourgoise. Check out his essay, The proletariat and the Revolution. Communist parties helped create labour unions. There is a difference between trade unions and labour unions. A trade union is like one that has all plumbers, a specific trade and part of its purpose is to ensure that only qualified plumbers can work as plumbers. Trade unions go back to a time before communism.

Labour unions have got all kinds of worker in them. They are not concerned about the skills of the worker, and in these unions everyone gets the same wage increases, same benefits and work under the same contract, no matter what their specific job is. They are created by the ideas of communists.

These unions are not good for people, they don't encourage anyone to work at a higher level than the bare minimum, because there is no benefit in trying harder. In fact they discourage people from working harder, because that would set an example that would be expected from others. One of the reasons why the Soviet Union collapsed, it crumbled to pieces from the inside.

Edited October 30, 2008 by Sir Bandelot

[PoliticalCitizen]

So let me get this straight.....the arument is now about Santa Claus? Would he be classified as an immigrant?

I believe the North American one is a permanent resident of North Pole, the West-European one lives in Laplandia and the Russian Ded Moroz - in Siberia.

[Griz]

Except we actually have the power to enforce and assert our interests. The un-assimilated Canadian group still remains a minority, there are many immigrant to citizen inhabitants who cherish the "Canadian culture" and it's values as much as anybody else.

I'd love to hear your sweeping generalization of what Canadian Culture is? Imagine that you are riding up an elevator--say 5 floors--and in that time you were to explain your definition of what Canadian Culture is...what would that definition be to you...this should be interesting

[PoliticalCitizen]

I'd love to hear your sweeping generalization of what Canadian Culture is? Imagine that you are riding up an elevator--say 5 floors--and in that time you were to explain your definition of what Canadian Culture is...what would that definition be to you...this should be interesting

Praise the Queen in French?

[tango]

Unions are the backbone of the communist workforce. Trotsky advocated the creation of unions as a means of organizing the proletariat into a national uprising agianst the bourgoise. Check out his essay, The proletariat and the Revolution. Communist parties helped create labour unions. There is a difference between trade unions and labour unions. A trade union is like one that has all plumbers, a specific trade and part of its purpose is to ensure that only qualified plumbers can work as plumbers. Trade unions go back to a time before communism.

Labour unions have got all kinds of worker in them. They are not concerned about the skills of the worker, and in these unions everyone gets the same wage increases, same benefits and work under the same contract, no matter what their specific job is. They are created by the ideas of communists.

These unions are not good for people, they don't encourage anyone to work at a higher level than the bare minimum, because there is no benefit in trying harder. In fact they discourage people from working harder, because that would set an example that would be expected from others. One of the reasons why the Soviet Union collapsed, it crumbled to pieces from the inside.

"These unions are not good for people..."

Oh how quaint! But rather an antiquated view of unions. Most professions today are unionized - for example, university professors. Canadians long ago realized that collective bargaining is the way to go.

The history of the USSR is not remotely like the present Canadian reality, and I assure you the unions are very interested in the skills of the workers.

[Sir Bandelot]

I assure you the unions are very interested in the skills of the workers.

I am in OPSEU. Before that I was in CUPE. Before that, I worked for 16 years in a non-unionized environment. They tried to force us into one of their unions a couple of times, and we successfully fought them off. But when I moved to another city and changed my job I had no choice but to join the union. So this is my experience- with over 1000 employees of diverse skills, they couldnt care less about me and my small team. We are a small group of trained engineers with a unique job. The union does not understand us and doesn't care to. Others in the union are cleaners and clerical workers, and some technologists. No one wants to do what I would call a good job, theres no incentive to do well, or to try and make any improvements to the work process. With the union everyone knows that they won't get any recognition for doing things well, because management is not allowed to. The union will not allow it. With no incentive to do well the place is a dump. The union has just become a self-serving entity, providing jobs for the union management who are indifferent to the everyday work we do, who's main interest is in preserving itself and if that means manipulating the workers, they do it. Read the history of unions, they are rife with corruption. In some areas organized crime has their hand in the unions pocket.

To skilled workers they are simply another layer of beaurocracy that gets in the way, and gives management an excuse not to care either, because they can use the excuse that their hands are tied by the union.

[White Doors]

"These unions are not good for people..."

Oh how quaint! But rather an antiquated view of unions. Most professions today are unionized - for example, university professors. Canadians long ago realized that collective bargaining is the way to go.

The history of the USSR is not remotely like the present Canadian reality, and I assure you the unions are very interested in the skills of the workers.

Yet, the rate of unionization is it one of the lowest levels in Canadian history.

So who's wrong here?

[Argus]

I'd love to hear your sweeping generalization of what Canadian Culture is? Imagine that you are riding up an elevator--say 5 floors--and in that time you were to explain your definition of what Canadian Culture is...what would that definition be to you...this should be interesting

You think anyone could adequately explain a complex mechanism like a national culture in the space of ten or twenty seconds?

[Argus]

I am in OPSEU. Before that I was in CUPE. Before that, I worked for 16 years in a non-unionized environment. They tried to force us into one of their unions a couple of times, and we successfully fought them off. But when I moved to another city and changed my job I had no choice but to join the union. So this is my experience- with over 1000 employees of diverse skills, they couldnt care less about me and my small team. We are a small group of trained engineers with a unique job. The union does not understand us and doesn't care to. Others in the union are cleaners and clerical workers, and some technologists. No one wants to do what I would call a good job, theres no incentive to do well, or to try and make any improvements to the work process. With the union everyone knows that they won't get any recognition for doing things well, because management is not allowed to. The union will not allow it. With no incentive to do well the place is a dump.

Frankly, I find this a little hard to believe. I work for the feds, which means those idiots at PSAC are my union. And while I agree there is little incentive to do well because you will get no real recognition, that has nothing to do with the union, and everything to do with a huge, bloated HR branch which has removed virtually all power for promotion and hiring from managers. So it really doesn't matter if you do a brilliant job every day while your colleague sucks. All that matters is if you can pass through the arcane HR rituals which govern hiring and promotion. And guess what? There's no place in those rituals for whether or not you're a great team player or a self serving, disruptive idiot, for whether you have frequent absenteeism or not, for whether you constantly miss target dates or not, or for anything else about your work performance. Take the tests. Write the right words, and you're promoted.

BTW, perhaps Ontario ought to have two different unions, as the feds do. Federally, PIPS tends to represent the more highly technical, skilled employees; the programers and engineers and such. Maybe you'd be happier with that sort of arrangement.

[Argus]

"the real meaning" of Christmas was lost in translation

Nonsense. That great philosopher Linus enunciated the biblical meaning of Christmas back in 1965, and it's been clealry understood since then.

[Sir Bandelot]

Frankly, I find this a little hard to believe. I work for the feds, which means those idiots at PSAC are my union. And while I agree there is little incentive to do well because you will get no real recognition, that has nothing to do with the union, and everything to do with a huge, bloated HR branch which has removed virtually all power for promotion and hiring from managers.

What do you find hard to believe.

When a union makes a contract for 1000 workers, how can it be fair. As a supervisor in a non-union environment I knew that we were giving 3% wage increases for everybody, but some people could get more depending on how well they scored in their performace appraisal. The appraisal was done by the manager, supervisor and employee jointly. So no one was left out of getting an increase. People who just did the basic job to the bottom line got the standard increase. People who volunteered for projects, who showed leadership by mentoring others, who had no problems on the job got the recognition they deserve. Strangely the ones who never did those things didn't bother to try, even though they knew the extra money was there. Thats just the way they are but others who did care about their job, got the satisfaction of knowing they could move up.

With the union, the rules are fixed and they apply to everybody equally. Even people who have a college or university degree, or who respond to emergencies on the job are treated the same as workers who push brooms or sit all day at a desk and look out the window. There is no way that can be fair.

And management loves it too. It makes their job much easier, they only need to deal with the union reps. So what you find hard to believe

Edited October 30, 2008 by Sir Bandelot

[Argus]

What do you find hard to believe.

I find it hard to believe you blame all this on the union and not on the HR branch, and the very left wing, politically correct social policies which have infested them over the past several decades. Promotion, recognition and transfers are all governed by HR policy, not union desires. While the union might have had some consultation the overriding guidance for these things tends to be the bureaucrats in HR, not union reps.

BTW, I have worked in non-union shops for years, and many of them were very poorly operated, with mangers who arbitrarily changed hours or promoted favorites on a whim.

[M.Dancer]

BTW, I have worked in non-union shops for years, and many of them were very poorly operated, with mangers who arbitrarily changed hours or promoted favorites on a whim.

I have worked in both too. Some of the most disfuntional union shops there are are in Canadian media.

[Sir Bandelot]

I find it hard to believe you blame all this on the union and not on the HR branch, and the very left wing, politically correct social policies which have infested them over the past several decades.

You find it hard to believe that I think that? Well, that is what I think, so believe it.

But I find it hard to believe, you think HR is left wing.

I am not here to defend the HR, by any means. I see them as being left wing in my experience. Left wing would mean, trying to create some form of equality amongst diverse groups, and that really is what the union is doing. I see the management actually as being right wing, more interested in economics than in people. Thats why they are at odds, the unions are definitely left wing coming from a communist ideology while management is right wing, trying to cut expenses and maximize profit.

In each case the worker hangs in the balance between two political entities, both of which are self-serving.

"Promotion, recognition and transfers are all governed by HR policy, not union desires. While the union might have had some consultation the overriding guidance for these things tends to be the bureaucrats in HR, not union reps."

Thats what the union will always tell you. A nice excuse, partly true, whereas the reality in the workplace is, when management does want to create an opportunity for promotion, what actually happens? Do you know, Argus, having worked in a union? The union will insist on the person with the most years of service, ie. most seniority to be the one who gets the new position, not the one who does the best work. Because the union does not concern itself with the quality of work that someone does. As long as they meet the qualifications set out by the new position, regardless of their actual capabilities they will get the position. As I pointed out earlier, it is in the interest of the union that everyone does just the bare minimum job, so as not to create expectations and pressure the other workers to do likewise. What is the outcome of this type of environment? Let me answer because maybe you don't want to believe it- Management is reuctant to create new opportunities out of fear of union meddling, and that an undesireable person will get the position. Management would rather promote itself, furthering the division and animosity between two groups, "Us" and "them".

"BTW, I have worked in non-union shops for years, and many of them were very poorly operated, with mangers who arbitrarily changed hours or promoted favorites on a whim."

Yes, I know all about that. I worked in many such shops as a teenager before I embarked on my current career, and I have seen much that goes on in the factories. That is why the unions are often still favoured amongst workplaces with unskilled or blue collar workers.

[Griz]

You think anyone could adequately explain a complex mechanism like a national culture in the space of ten or twenty seconds?

You know what I mean! And the reason nobody has responded is because they can't "sum up" just what Canadian Culture is. I can help some of you get started if you wish:

1)Beer Bellies, pizza, and Hockey Night In Canada

2)Crankly People mad at Indians and Immigrants

3)Indians, Immigrants, Newfies and Rednecks

....more?????

[Smallc]

You know what I mean! And the reason nobody has responded is because they can't "sum up" just what Canadian Culture is. I can help some of you get started if you wish:

1)Beer Bellies, pizza, and Hockey Night In Canada

2)Crankly People mad at Indians and Immigrants

3)Indians, Immigrants, Newfies and Rednecks

....more?????

I sincerely hope that thats not what you think of this country.

[Argus]

You know what I mean! And the reason nobody has responded is because they can't "sum up" just what Canadian Culture is. I can help some of you get started if you wish:

1)Beer Bellies, pizza, and Hockey Night In Canada

2)Crankly People mad at Indians and Immigrants

3)Indians, Immigrants, Newfies and Rednecks

....more?????

I remember the flicker of sadness and anticipation at the smell of a chill autumn breeze at night which carried with it the certain coming of winter. I remember the foretelling of spring in the warm March sun which lit the winter landscape and the sight of ice melting along the edges of the sidewalks. I remember my delight at the first sight of trickling water, the first few bits of grass beginning to show. I remember the scent of wood smoke on a cool evening night, the smell and sounds of a neighborhood arena on a Saturday morning, the chill of the water during an early morning swimming lesson. I remember the sun rising over the trees at the cottage, and the absolute darkness of the night save for the moon glowing on the river.

I remember the feel of ice under my skates as I tried to keep my ankles steady, and the race down the sideline of a soccer field trying to keep up with the ball. I remember the magic and wonder of a shopping mall. I remember the anticipation of school, the anxiety on the first day, the discomfort and special smell of new clothes. I remember following parades in the summer, keeping up with the bands. I remember throwing my books away on the last day of school, and walking home, joyously knowing I had almost literally forever before school started again. I remember racing the clock, running from house to house on Halloween night. I remember fireworks on Victoria Day, and the lazy, sleepy Dominion Day holiday which was celebrated in typical Canadian fashion by doing not much of anything, and the way we quietly looked down on those loud, brash Americans for all their howling national bombast with face painting and flag waving and fairs and guns and super patriotism.

I remember half crippling myself carting a giant pumpkin home that was almost as big as me. I remember the joy of spotting the first Christmas decorations put out in the shopping mall - in very late November. I remember holding my hands together in church, feeling a bit awkward, and terribly bored. I remember being on the road with my parents, and the fascination of every new mile of grass and cows and run-down trailer parks. I remember the delight of hotels, with elevators you could ride up and down – and up and down – and up and down in. They had real ice, too, just down the hall, and it was FREE. I remember throwing up at the Exhibition after eating too much and going on a fast ride. I remember wandering along the river skipping stones. I remember building a tree house in the woods. I remember building a skating rink in the back yard, building snow men, snow forts, and a snow house, snowball fights. I remember the thrill of racing down a long hill on a toboggan, and jumping off a high fence to land in a deep snow bank.

I remember standing in line in the gymnasium in front of the number which represented my school bus, or at least, hoping it was my school bus. I remember school picture day. I remember freezing my ass off at recess in the winter when it was forty below, trying to shield from the wind in a narrow doorway. I remember the satisfaction of body checking someone and having them fall down. I remember summer nights and cars, and girls, and baseball analogies, if you take my meaning. I remember Jarry Park at night, with the Expos clobbering the Mets. I remember my first subway ride alone. I remember my father teaching me to drive, and being horrified at very lightly scraping the side of a car as I backed out of a parking space. I remember the theme music from Expo 67. I remember how the theme for the Stanley Cup Playoffs used to thrill me – every game. I remember the woods, the quiet, the heat, the bugs, the feel of water on my paddle. I remember taunting the dog, having it chase me, chasing it back. I remember contempt for those poor guys who only had cats. I remember the excitement of thanksgiving dinner, the awe and anticipation of Christmas eve, the joy of Christmas morning. I remember chocolate bunnies at Easter, and that funny old-people smell when visiting grandparents houses. I remember whole mornings and afternoons devoted to colouring and cutting out santas, and Christmas trees, and elves, and candy canes at school. I remember amazement that the band actually sounded pretty good at the Christmas concert, and the choir wasn’t half bad either. I remember the first sight of colour on a television.

I remember Saturday movies with my brother and friends. I remember amazement at all those tall buildings downtown. I remember hide and seek, pickup football, and long, lazy summer evenings wandering suburban streets with my friends, getting into very mild trouble, and thinking we were cool. I remember my first job, at a self service gas bar. I remember being fired from my first job at a self service gas bar. I remember my first television, twelve inchs, B&W, which I bought with my first and only cheque from my first job. I remember New years eve, babysitting, working at a club, partying. I remember seeing how high I could make my bike jump, and hot summer days when I drank an entire coke non-stop after riding a long distance. I remember school trips to upper Canada village, to a cottage resort, to museums and maple syrup runs and parliament hill. I remember seeing how late I could stay out without my parents yelling for me, how late I could stay up without my parents yelling at me, how late I could sleep in without my father overturning my bed. I remember waiting to be wakened on a school day – when it snowed – watching each minute tick by and hoping against hope nobody came in – which meant it was a snow day!

I remember the vast disappointment when my mother rushed in to say she’d slept in and demand I hurry up and get ready. I remember being very careful not to say anything that would tick off my father, who was very scary despite never, to my memory, hitting me, except maybe a very rare cuff to the back of the head. I remember firecrackers.

I remember eagerly waiting for Thursday, which was, coincidentally, allowance day and the day the new comics came out at the corner store. I remember camp fires, and the smell of burned hot dogs. I remember camp songs, and sleeping in a cottage or tent with a half dozen other boys. I remember the bad food in the mess hall. I remember getting to ride a horse. I remember riding in the back of my dad’s station wagon down the highway, staring at the cars behind us. I remember moving into a new house in a new city, with everything so – new. I remember building a hideout in the basement, and my delight when the basement flooded, stomping around in the water, and not caring that it smelled a little. I remember Dairy Queen ice cream cones in the summer, beaver tails in the winter. I remember Flintstones every day at lunch, Brady Bunch, Bewitched and Gilligans Island after school. I remember how great it was to be just too sick to go to school, but without pain or real discomfort.

I remember the mustiness and mystery of an old attic. I remember the library every Sunday, and taking out all those Hardy Boys and Famous Five books. I remember walking on train tracks as the train approached. I remember the thunder as it crossed a tiny bridge over an old creek – from underneath. I remember GI Joe dolls, and my sister’s Barbies, Tonka construction trucks, Matchbox cars with an entire case to carry them. I remember flipping baseball and hockey cards with my friends, winning more than I lost. I remember Crystal Beach, and La Ronde, Niagara Falls, and Frontier Town. I remember visiting family, staying in my cousins’ room on a cot, the pool his family had. I remember visiting the House of Commons and showing my pass to the guards. I remember how big and impressive everything was, and how green the House was, and how amazing it was to see all those people in person I’d seen on my TV for so long. I remember the guard confiscating the sheathed hunting knife on my belt with a genial smile, promising he’d look after it for me till I got out. I remember voting for the first time, at 18, and determining I would never be one of those people who didn’t bother to vote.

I remember all this and more, and all this and more is what makes me who I am. And all this and more and less is what I share with many, many, many Canadians who grew up in this country, living much the same lives, with some variation, in subtly different ways, learning the same lessons from family and school, experiencing the same experiences, feeling the same joys and fears and sorrows and hopes and dreams and thoughts. And in all of that we were alone but in all of that we were together, because while we were all different, we were pretty much the same, so that others joked about how polite we were, and how clean we were, and how we’d obediently, if a bit restless at times, stand at quiet street corners waiting for the light to turn green, even though there wasn’t a car in sight. We were solid, through and through, self reliant and proud, but quietly so. We knew there were other countries, because we were bored silly in Geography class every day, but we didn’t really care about them, or think about them. We were Canadians, with an amazing degree of confidence in ourselves and our country, and that was all the world that really mattered to us

[wulf42]

I'd love to hear your sweeping generalization of what Canadian Culture is? Imagine that you are riding up an elevator--say 5 floors--and in that time you were to explain your definition of what Canadian Culture is...what would that definition be to you...this should be interesting

Sure i'll do it for you.....................Our Culture or at least the one i grew up with was one of........Kitchen Parties......music.........Beach Parties

........Hunting trips...yes of course Hockey........Summer Vacations....Going to clubs with friends meeting girls.... leaving with girls...........Christmas spent with family and Friends..(and yes with a Christmas tree not Holiday tree)........very little crime.....the odd car race in my 77 Trans Am....lol.......Yes those were good days....unfortunately its not the same now!

Edited November 1, 2008 by wulf42

[whowhere]

Sure i'll do it for you.....................Our Culture or at least the one i grew up with was one of........Kitchen Parties......music.........Beach Parties

........Hunting trips...yes of course Hockey........Summer Vacations....Going to clubs with friends meeting girls.... leaving with girls...........Christmas spent with family and Friends..(and yes with a Christmas tree not Holiday tree)........very little crime.....the odd car race in my 77 Trans Am....lol.......Yes those were good days....unfortunately its not the same now!

Yeah, I miss that Canada.

[Griz]

Yeah, I miss that Canada.

So, how does one assimlate into this then? I knew nobody would answer this because when it comes to the argument about assimilaton you can't really define what Canadian Culture is!

[Hcheh]

Sure i'll do it for you.....................Our Culture or at least the one i grew up with was one of........Kitchen Parties......music.........Beach Parties

........Hunting trips...yes of course Hockey........Summer Vacations....Going to clubs with friends meeting girls.... leaving with girls...........Christmas spent with family and Friends..(and yes with a Christmas tree not Holiday tree)........very little crime.....the odd car race in my 77 Trans Am....lol.......Yes those were good days....unfortunately its not the same now!

Missing those things is just a result of universal social hegemony, nothing to do with what has happened to Canada. Try to find a country now that is like what you described haha

get with the times j/ks lol

[wulf42]

Missing those things is just a result of universal social hegemony, nothing to do with what has happened to Canada. Try to find a country now that is like what you described haha

get with the times j/ks lol

lol.....your probably right......but i still miss the old days!!

[William Ashley]

The Torah and all Hebrew scriptures were written in Hebrew.

Lies

Undisputed Occurrences

* Ezra 4:8–6:18 and 7:12–26 – quotations of documents from the 5th century BCE concerning the restoration of the temple in Jerusalem.

* Daniel 2:4b–7:28 – five tales about Daniel and his colleagues, and an apocalyptic vision.

* Jeremiah 10:11 – a single sentence in the middle of a Hebrew text denouncing idolatry.

* Genesis 31:47 – translation of a Hebrew place-name.

[edit] Other suggested occurrences

* Genesis 15:1 – the word במחזה (ba-maħaze, "in a vision").

Aramaic was the standard language after the fall of Jerusalem.

Evidence of this are the dead sea scrolls.

The Scrolls are for the most part, written in "Hebrew", but there are many written in Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews of Palestine for the last two centuries B.C. and of the first two centuries A.D.

I should note modern Hebrew did not exist as a spoken language until it was reinvented in the mandate. Allthough it transitioned through the centuries. Ancient Hebrew is not ancient semetic hebrew.

The original authors of the new testament wrote is Greek.

Koine Greek, although the language of Jesus is "Aramaic." Also note that it was beleive that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, and there is another contention that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote in Hebrew, which was translated into Greek by Luke. Also there is something called the Aramaic primacy see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_primacy

Where are your source documents? Where are the originals? Hmm?

The New Testament Scriptures were already in use in the Ancient Aramaic language for five hundred years before Christianity began in Europe.

Given that Christianity in Europe started around 50 - 60 AD

Not my statement.

The start date is questionable, I think this may be reference to the rise of the church in Europe. Germany etc.. doesn't state a place, what year did christianity reach scandanavia? This would take a long time to explain, you could argue from many angleson this.

The first Christians in Europe were the Romans under Emperor Constantine.

I suppose Pauls mission and establishment of Churches in Macedonia and Peter's establishment of a Church in Rome (as well as Paul's letters to the Roman Church puts that to rest.

State religion. Before that Christians were a sect that were seen as freaks, and trouble makers.

If indeed you are as you claim a divinity student I can only wonder which matchbook university you went to. Fruitcake U?

Think what you would like, it will be no more true than what you don't think.

Also I see how you avoided the statements I actually made, and instead attacked a site I referenced for a comment.

You obviously don't have a knowledge of what you are talking about.

Where is YOUR EVIDENCE?

Edited November 2, 2008 by William Ashley

[William Ashley]

First Council of Nicaea was held in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325 AD, was the first Ecumenical council

Perhaps people see Turkey as the Middle East and not Europe?

Second Council of Nicaea was the seventh ecumenical council of Christianity; it met in 787 AD in Nicaea (site of the First Council of Nicaea; present-day İznik in Turkey

Perhaps people see Turkey as the Middle East and not Europe?

Third Council of Constantinople (680–681): repudiated Monothelitism, affirmed that Christ had both human and divine wills

Where is Constantinople?

When exactly does the church start meeting in Europe?

Faith Group or tradition Founder Date (CE) Location

Roman Catholic Jesus, Peter 1 Circa 30 1 Palestine

Orthodox churches Jesus, Peter 2 Circa 30 2 Palestine

Lutheranism Martin Luther 1517 Germany

Swiss Reformed Church Zwingli 1523 Switzerland

Mennonites No single founder 1525 Switzerland

Anglican Communion King Henry 8 1534 England

Calvinism John Calvin 1536 Switzerland

Presbyterianism John Knox 1560 Scotland

Baptist Churches John Smyth 1605 Holland

Dutch Reformed Michaelis Jones 1628 Netherlands

Amish Jakob Ammann 1693 Switzerland

Methodism John Wesley 1739 England

Quakers George Fox 1647 England

Moravians Count Zinendorf 1727 Germany

Congregationalism John & Charles Wesley 1744 England

Swedenborg Emanuel Swedenborg 1747 Sweden

Brethren John Darby 1828 England

Latter-day Saints Joseph Smith 1830 NY, USA

Seventh Day Adventists Ellen White 1860 NH, USA

Salvation Army William Booth 1865 England

Jehovah's Witnesses Charles Russell 1870 PA, USA

Christian Science Mary Baker Eddy 1879 Pleasant View, NH USA

Pentecostalism Charles Parham 1900 CA, USA

Worldwide Church of God Herbert W. Armstrong 1933/1947 OR, USA 3

Unification Church Sun Myung Moon 1954 South Korea

In 569 CE, the Toledo council added the filioque clause to the Nicene Creed.

That is likely the date right there... the Filioque clause... that is god the father, son and holy spirit.. modern - non orthodox christianity.

"This phrase states that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son. "

also (invented/determined) in the 5th century

Athanasian Creed: This much longer creed was originally thought to be written by Athanasius, (328-373 CE) who was bishop of Alexandria. However, it is now believed to have been written late in the 5th century CE. It deals mainly with the Trinity, and includes the beliefs of the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. It further describes that:

- Only Christians will be saved.

- The three persons of the Trinity, none of whom were created or begotten, but have been in existence for all eternity.

- The three persons are equal to each other and are a unity.

- Jesus Christ is both perfect God and perfect man, yet "is not two but one.

With reference to....the originality of the Peshitta text, as the Patriarch and Head of the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church of the East, we wish to state, that the Church of the East received the scriptures from the hands of the blessed Apostles themselves in the Aramaic original, the language spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and that the Peshitta is the text of the Church of the East which has come down from the Biblical times without any change or revision

The Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East[1] (Syriac: ܥܕܬܐ ܩܕܝܫܬܐ ܘܫܠܝܚܝܬܐ ܩܬܘܠܝܩܝ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ܕܐܬܘܪ̈ܝܐ, ‘Ittā Qaddishtā wa-Shlikhāitā Qattoliqi d-Madnĕkhā d-Ātārāyē), currently presided over by Mar Dinkha IV, is a Christian particular church and one of the earliest to separate itself from communion with the Catholic Church (see Roman Catholic Church; Eastern Orthodox Church). It traces its origins to the See of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, founded by Saint Thomas the Apostle as well as Saint Mari and Saint Addai as evidenced in the Doctrine of Addai. This church is sometimes referred to as the "Nestorian Church", the "Syrian Church" or the "Persian Church."

Thomas the Apostle, also called Judas Thomas, Doubting Thomas, or Didymus, was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. He is perhaps best known for disbelieving Jesus' Resurrection when first told of it, then proclaiming "My Lord and my God" on seeing Jesus. By tradition it is held that he went to India to preach the gospel there. The Roman Catholic Church celebrates his feast on 3 July

Just as Saints Peter and Paul are said to have brought the fledgling Christianity to Greece and Rome, Saint Mark brought it to Egypt, Saint John to Syria and Asia Minor, Thomas is often said to have taken it eastwards as far as India. Saint Thomas is said to have been the first Catholicos of the East.

Edited November 2, 2008 by William Ashley

[Mr.Canada]

I say Merry Christmas to everyone I deal with and call it a Christmas tree. I don't care who it offends, these people are guests in my country and I won't be made to feel guilty for favoring tradition to sanitized secularism.