Dumb Remark of the Day - 2008

[Smallc]

The UK doesn't have provinces. That's why it might seem that their federal budget is so much larger than ours. Their federal government does the work our provinces do, in addition to federal responsibilities. Their military spending is 3 times higher than hours in part because nuclear missiles and subs are horribly expensive.

However, I'm not talking about tripling the budget for the armed forces. We could easily afford to double the size of our actual infantry troops without affecting other programs.

AFAIK, even with provincial budgets included, we still only add up to about $550B, or, about half...where it should be I suppose.

The thing is tough, we have the 15th largest military budget in the world when you look at it. We pay well, so it doesn't buy much. Half of the budget is spent on people already. Increasing personnel numbers is a very expensive thing. They are trying, but so far, people don't seem to want to sign up. There is money to increase the forces, but there are so many things competing for those people, and it makes them difficult to find. According to one number, since the conservatives took power, the Army has actually shrunk by 30. People just don't seem to want to sign up.

[Smallc]

total government yearly budget, yes. Canada's is well over 600 billion per year.

so we could do 6/10 of the capability of the UK's?

ps: Australia has less than half the population of Canada.

edit, Canada's budgetary revenue was 243 billion in 2007.

Are you sure about the UK's being over one Trillion?

From the numbers I saw, its right. When you add the provinces numbers together with the Feds, you come to just over half of the UK numbers, so its about right. I really wish we could have a larger military. I hope we get one. I just don't want it to be at the expense of too many other things.

[White Doors]

The UK doesn't have provinces. That's why it might seem that their federal budget is so much larger than ours. Their federal government does the work our provinces do, in addition to federal responsibilities. Their military spending is 3 times higher than hours in part because nuclear missiles and subs are horribly expensive.

However, I'm not talking about tripling the budget for the armed forces. We could easily afford to double the size of our actual infantry troops without affecting other programs.

Ahhh.. thanks Argus, that makes sense now.

And i agree with your assesment and add that we need a large investment in our navy.

[Smallc]

Ahhh.. thanks Argus, that makes sense now.

And i agree with your assesment and add that we need a large investment in our navy.

I would love to see the Navy expanded to about 40 ship and a few subs.

[White Doors]

From the numbers I saw, its right. When you add the provinces numbers together with the Feds, you come to just over half of the UK numbers, so its about right. I really wish we could have a larger military. I hope we get one. I just don't want it to be at the expense of too many other things.

The defence of the nation is one of the core responsibilities of the federal government and should be reflected as such in expeditures.

[M.Dancer]

I would love to see the Navy expanded to about 40 ship and a few subs.

Canada's Navy currently has over 50 commisioned ships and 4 subs. Of those 15 are what you might call ships of the line.

[Smallc]

Canada's Navy currently has over 50 commisioned ships and 4 subs. Of those 15 are what you might call ships of the line.

I was counting patrol boats, AORs, frigates, and destroyers. I am aware of the research ship a well as the fire vehicles, tugs, runabouts, and others.

What I would like to see is about 20 ships of the line and 20 patrol ships, not boats. With the purchase of the Arctic ships, we will be close to that number on the patrol side.

[Wild Bill]

We pay well, so it doesn't buy much.

People just don't seem to want to sign up.

Cite, please? I've seen too many newspaper accounts of soldiers forced to go to food banks to feed their families and military trained tradesmen and pilots who bail out immediately after their hitch to private industry because of the huge difference in pay scales to believe your post.

What I've heard is, the pay is crap and even when you sign up it can take a year before they can spare a cot and a training instructor to actually take you in!

We've got some people on this board with personal experience who can tell us if you're right or not. I'm very interested n hearing from them.

[Smallc]

Cite, please? I've seen too many newspaper accounts of soldiers forced to go to food banks to feed their families and military trained tradesmen and pilots who bail out immediately after their hitch to private industry because of the huge difference in pay scales to believe your post.

What I've heard is, the pay is crap and even when you sign up it can take a year before they can spare a cot and a training instructor to actually take you in!

We've got some people on this board with personal experience who can tell us if you're right or not. I'm very interested n hearing from them.

We pay well in comparison to most other forces (or at least we spend more on personnel). We spend $18B per year on our forces, the 15th largest amount in the world. $9B a year is spent on personnel. Its a fact I'e heard on many newscasts many times.

I personally know someone who joined the forces and was taken in immediately. That may not be the case all the time, but it certainly was in that instance.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Smallc

[Argus]

Cite, please? I've seen too many newspaper accounts of soldiers forced to go to food banks to feed their families and military trained tradesmen and pilots who bail out immediately after their hitch to private industry because of the huge difference in pay scales to believe your post.

What I've heard is, the pay is crap and even when you sign up it can take a year before they can spare a cot and a training instructor to actually take you in!

We've got some people on this board with personal experience who can tell us if you're right or not. I'm very interested n hearing from them.

The pay is pretty good for people who don't require more than a high school diploma. After five years an enlisted person without any particular bonuses or trade specialties would be making $50,000 plus a full slate of benefits which is better than what the rest of the government gets. For example, they will start at 4 weeks vacation - the federal public service starts at 3. After five years that jumps to 5 weeks, where in the public service it only jumps to 4 weeks after 8 years. They get full medical and dental and a number of other bonuses and stipends. I believe their pension plan is extremely generous, as well. A corporal makes close to $60,000. A corporal who has a specialist designation makes more than that, from $65,-$70k. And corporal is the rank most enlisteds achieve fairly early in their career.

Now compare that to someone working as a waiter or store clerk or secretary, or in a warehouse or on a fishing boat or in most other wage jobs, in or out of offices. It's extremely unlikely you could join the government, or a bank, or an insurance company as a clerk with a high school education at 18 and be making $70,000 within a few years.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Argus

[Moonbox]

We pay well in comparison to most other forces (or at least we spend more on personnel). We spend $18B per year on our forces, the 15th largest amount in the world. $9B a year is spent on personnel. Its a fact I'e heard on many newscasts many times.

This is true. In fact, Canada's military budget is 1/3 the size of CHINA's.

With that said, we've seen a 27% increase in spending since 2001, and a LOT of that money has been spent refitting a military that has been crippled by spending cuts and military sell offs.

In years to come our military IS on the road to modernization and full independant capability, but we fell so far behind for about 25 years that right now the spending increases aren't buying a lot of new equipment. Rather, it's repairing and making serviceable what we didn't maintain from before.

[Wild Bill]

Now compare that to someone working as a waiter or store clerk or secretary, or in a warehouse or on a fishing boat or in most other wage jobs, in or out of offices. It's extremely unlikely you could join the government, or a bank, or an insurance company as a clerk with a high school education at 18 and be making $70,000 within a few years.

It sounds like things have improved these past few years! Glad to hear it!

Meanwhile, when comparing with a waiter or a store clerk it's important to remember that such an employee does not normally expect being a target to be part of his job description.

Unless he's working in Toronto, of course!

[AngusThermopyle]

The pay is pretty good for people who don't require more than a high school diploma. After five years an enlisted person without any particular bonuses or trade specialties would be making $50,000 plus a full slate of benefits which is better than what the rest of the government gets. For example, they will start at 4 weeks vacation - the federal public service starts at 3. After five years that jumps to 5 weeks, where in the public service it only jumps to 4 weeks after 8 years. They get full medical and dental and a number of other bonuses and stipends. I believe their pension plan is extremely generous, as well. A corporal makes close to $60,000. A corporal who has a specialist designation makes more than that, from $65,-$70k. And corporal is the rank most enlisteds achieve fairly early in their career.

If what you say is true then things have really changed since I retired in 01. The vacation part is correct, and they should get generous vacation allowances. How many other jobs require one to spend years away from home under hazardous conditions. Personnel need the release from stress.

As for pay, I'll check it out, I don't think they come anywhere close to 70 grand a year. I was spec II and didn't come close to that, upon retirement I was making about 47 and change before taxes. When I first joined my take home pay was just over 14 grand a year, granted that was back in 82 however it was still low at that time and hard to support a wife on as a newly wed.

Housing is no longer subsidized by the military, now members must live on the economy like everyone else. As for the Medical and Dental end of things, well it just makes sense that they want to keep that in house. Members still pay into Provincial health plans though. They also pay EI, even though they will never get the chance to draw it, ever.

I've heard that they've made efforts to bring pay scales up to match those in the economy but I'm not sure of the specifics. As for the high school diploma thing, well its kinda meaningless in the context of military training. when they're done with you you can hold your head high in any equivalent civilian occupation. In fact military training regularly exceeds the standards set in civilian training programs. This is one reason that various companies actively attempt to recruit experienced military personnel above civilians. Another would be the knowledge that military people have comprehensive experience relating to discipline, motivation and the necessity of the task at hand. These are factors I have personally found to be lacking or entirely missing amongst the majority of civilian workers that I've met since retiring.

Personally my attitude is pay the guys more, they deserve it, after all they are offering up their lives if need be. How much would that be worth to you?

Almost forgot. The pension isn't all that generous. After 20 years service I receive 1300.00 a month, not enough to actually retire on.

Edited September 16, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[M.Dancer]

The latest pay schedules

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Apr_..._payrates_e.pdf

[Topaz]

Back in June, the Defence came out and said that the Conservatives will spend 450 BILLION by the year 2020. I think when we do find out the price of the war and the price of buying this equipment it will probably be more. A report on TV was talking to the people that will issue the bill for the war and he kept saying it was HUGE and by the end of the interview, it looked like the bill will be around 10-20 Billion so far. The dumb remark said for Harper today was when he said that Dion shouldn't be trashing Canada's ecomony that 's not right!!! Gee, wasn't it the Min. of Finance that was telling the world not to go to Ontario to set their business????

[AngusThermopyle]

The latest pay schedules

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Apr_..._payrates_e.pdf

Just as I thought. The pay levels have risen but no where near the claimed 70k for a five year corporal as was claimed, those guys are in the high 30's low 40's. Pretty much in line with what I suspected.

These guys deserve to make more, as I said earlier, their level of training and expertise exceeds that of their civilian counterparts.

[M.Dancer]

Just as I thought. The pay levels have risen but no where near the claimed 70k for a five year corporal as was claimed, those guys are in the high 30's low 40's. Pretty much in line with what I suspected.

These guys deserve to make more, as I said earlier, their level of training and expertise exceeds that of their civilian counterparts.

I think with bonuses and combat incentives you can get there......

[AngusThermopyle]

I think with bonuses and combat incentives you can get there......

Thats possible, if they did two back to backs in one year it could put them close to that, and so it should, they're the ones spending a year in hell.

One way to cut expenses on salaries would be to thin out the Officer Corps. Canada has a far higher rate of Officers to men than any other NATO country, we don't need so many, especially when you consider that a great many of them are practically useless in an environment other than an office.

Last I heard we had over a hundred and thirty Generals, ridiculous when you consider the size of our Armed Forces. Years ago they thinned the numbers of Generals but it didn't take long for that number to creep up again. Scott Taylor is a great source for info of that type, probably why the brass hate him so much and he was ineptly spied upon by CSIS.

[Argus]

Just as I thought. The pay levels have risen but no where near the claimed 70k for a five year corporal as was claimed, those guys are in the high 30's low 40's. Pretty much in line with what I suspected.

Explain to me how I'm counting wrong. The top pay rate for a specialist 2 corporal is listed as $5757 per month. That works out to $69,084 as far as my rudimentary counting skills would suggest.

[M.Dancer]

Explain to me how I'm counting wrong. The top pay rate for a specialist 2 corporal is listed as $5757 per month. That works out to $69,084 as far as my rudimentary counting skills would suggest.

I guess the question is, can you and how many reach the specialist 2 Cpl in 5 years.

[AngusThermopyle]

No one can reach that level in five years. For instance, as a Marine Engineer you are not eligible to attend your first tech course until you have at least four years in, then you usually wait at the very least for a year to be course loaded. The course is 18 months long so theres another two years (roughly). Then you have to do your cert one, another year to two years before you sit and pass the board. After that count on at least a couple of years before being course loaded for your next tech course. Then you have to do the OJT for that level and sit another board. As you can see, no corporal will attain that level in five years.

This is a situation that looks like one thing on paper but is actually an entirely different story in actual practice. Those who have served understand how the system works, those who have not can never fully understand it, no matter how many official releases they read.

[M.Dancer]

No one can reach that level in five years. For instance, .....

My brother was in the ordinace corps back in the 60s...he served 4 years and was discharged as a Pte. He was offered promotion, skills upgrades and other perqs...he had only one request...

GET ME OUT OF GAGETOWN!!!

[August1991]

Federal Conservative Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz referring to the outbreak of listeriosis:

"This is like a death by a thousand cuts. Or should I say cold cuts."

Canoe

[M.Dancer]

Federal Conservative Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz referring to the outbreak of listeriosis:Canoe

BaBum Dumb....

Seriously folks, try the prime rib...Anyway my wife says to me.....

[Argus]

I guess the question is, can you and how many reach the specialist 2 Cpl in 5 years.

I did not say you could reach that level in 5 years. I said that you could be making $50,000 in 5 years. Then added that corporals, which is, I believe, the main enlisted rank, can reach $60-70,000, which is pretty darned good for someone with a high school education.