Why Conservative Policies are Better for the Middle Class

[jdobbin]

I have the 2004 platform book in front of me right now. I don't see any mention of any position or intention with regards to gas taxes.

Really. Here is the entire Tory plaform posted on the Globe and Mail site.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:En8sRR...;cd=2&gl=ca

A Conservative government led by Stephen Harper will axe the Tax on Tax by

removing the GST from the federal excise tax on gasoline.

Now, are you denying that was a promise? Are you denying that Harper re-affirmed that promise in 2005 just prior to the election?

[Bryan]

Really. Here is the entire Tory plaform posted on the Globe and Mail site.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:En8sRR...;cd=2&gl=ca

Now, are you denying that was a promise? Are you denying that Harper re-affirmed that promise in 2005 just prior to the election?

I can't account for what a left wing paper claims he promised. I have the actual physical platform book, and it's not there. This is the first time I've ever heard of it.

I also have the Liberal red books. Want to compare unfullfilled promises?

Edited September 10, 2008 by Bryan

[blueblood]

I can't account for what a left wing paper claims he promised. I have the actual physical platform book, and it's not there. This is the first time I've ever heard of it.

I also have the Liberal red books. Want to compare unfullfilled promises?

Bust out the scanner then...

[jdobbin]

I can't account for what a left wing paper claims he promised. I have the actual physical platform book, and it's not there. This is the first time I've ever heard of it.

It is also on the Tory website as well which I posted yesterday.

In any event, the Globe published the election platform from the Tory site with no changes. It is a PDF file. I doubt even fellow Conservatives will not say that this is indeed the platform as it appeared in 2004 and what Harper affirmed in 2005.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation also has the same info on their website.

I also have the Liberal red books. Want to compare unfullfilled promises?

I'm perfecting prepared to accept that Liberals made promises that they didn't keep. Are you still prepared to completely and utterly deny that GST excise gas promise was not part of the Tory platform?

[jdobbin]

Bust out the scanner then...

I hope he does. Let's start with page 31 of the Tory election platform. Look for the header "We'll stop the tax on tax." Look for the part where it says "The Plan". You'll see the GST gas tax pledge.

[Bryan]

I'm perfecting prepared to accept that Liberals made promises that they didn't keep. Are you still prepared to completely and utterly deny that GST excise gas promise was not part of the Tory platform?

Not at all. I'm not saying that it never happened, I'm just saying it's not there in the official party platform book. I'll ask my local candidate about it this week.

Regardless, they didn't win in 2004 did they? Canadians rejected those policies, so they made new ones. I'm sure there are plenty of things that are different from the 2004 and 2006 manuals. That's what you do if the public rejects your policies, you adopt new ones. That's not even close to being a broken promise.

[jdobbin]

That's not even close to being a broken promise.

Unless that promise was reaffirmed by Harper and never withdrawn. That is why the usually friendly Canadian Taxpayers Federation has been irate. Between that and the overspending which Harper still pledges to keep down every year, the CTF has been very negative on a large chunk of fiscal management of the Tories.

[Oleg Bach]

Unless that promise was reaffirmed by Harper and never withdrawn. That is why the usually friendly Canadian Taxpayers Federation has been irate. Between that and the overspending which Harper still pledges to keep down every year, the CTF has been very negative on a large chunk of fiscal management of the Tories.

Families are dispised by the socialist - and the neo-cons alike - there is no conservatism left that conserves what makes people really prosperous and happy -family! Its OK for the neo cons and the leftists that actually do the bidding of the neo-cons to have grand families - but it is no longer for the average person....family breeds power - loyalty creates royalty...put it this way - just like in socialism - you will be told every one is equal - except the boss - who lives like a god on your hard work...conservatism is dead - what the hell do they conserve at this point in time other than neo - con gangsters conserving their great wealth selling war supplies in Afghansitan?

[blueblood]

Families are dispised by the socialist - and the neo-cons alike - there is no conservatism left that conserves what makes people really prosperous and happy -family! Its OK for the neo cons and the leftists that actually do the bidding of the neo-cons to have grand families - but it is no longer for the average person....family breeds power - loyalty creates royalty...put it this way - just like in socialism - you will be told every one is equal - except the boss - who lives like a god on your hard work...conservatism is dead - what the hell do they conserve at this point in time other than neo - con gangsters conserving their great wealth selling war supplies in Afghansitan?

post coherently pls.

Edited September 11, 2008 by blueblood

[marksman]

Foxer I won't quote your previous posts but here's somethings to think about in our GST or income tax discussion.

It isn't very difficult at all to argue that lower income earners aren't benefitted more by the GST cut. You say they need the savings the most but they can get those savings from income tax cuts more easily than through GST cuts.

Many of the products and services bought by low income Canadians are not taxable by the GST - this includes groceries rent prescription drugs etc. They also receive GST rebates that can refund all or most of the GST they paid. So you can't say a GST cut helps anyone save on basics like groceries and you'd have to reduce the savings they get after considering their rebate.

Using your examples of a low income Canadian saving $1 and a rich Canadian saving $2500 - sure the rich person is only saving 5% compared to 10% for the low income person. Now look at it from the government side. They're spending 99.9% of their lost revenue on the rich. I know your numbers are just an example but you see the problem. If you're trying to help low and middle class Canadians then why spend something like 90% of your cut on rich Canadians? Income tax cuts are a better way to distribute that money more fairly.

Even a quick google search shows that an argument for GST cuts isn't as solid as some claim.

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/275586

The economic benefit of a 2 percentage point GST cut was summed up by Don Drummond, chief economist of the TD Financial Group: "It doesn't do anything to improve the performance of the economy."

His views reflected a broad consensus among economists.

I'm sure there's some economists who would disagree but obviously a GST cut doesn't automatically turn into huge economic stimulus.

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/realitycheck..._inquiries.html

Simply put, if you earn less than $10,000, where you pay no income tax, or over $100,000, then Harper’s GST cut can work for you. But if you’re single and earning something in between those two figures, then you look to be better off with the income tax cut and its corresponding increase in the basic personal deduction and federal refundable credits. Otherwise, you’d have to spend close to your entire income on consumer items to come out ahead.

For someone earning $40,000, for example, the projected income tax relief this year under the Liberals is $359. That same person would have to buy $35,900 worth of consumer goods or services to generate a similar $359 GST savings. And as one tax economist contacted by Reality Check put it, that kind of spending doesn’t leave much left over for rent and groceries.

The GST advantage realistically really doesn’t kick in until you hit the $100,000 bracket. Because then you would only have to spend a little over 40 per cent of your total earnings to get a larger return from the GST break.

The Conservatives are promising to make a second one percentage point cut to the GST, bringing it down to five per cent, by the end of their first mandate. For their part, the Liberals are also promising more income tax cuts by 2010, a one percentage point reduction in the two higher tax brackets. This means those earning $40,000 would see a $475 reduction in their income taxes that year. If Harper is elected, they’d only have to spend $23,750 – 59 per cent of their income – to get the equivalent GST break.

For economic stimulus Andrew Coyne makes an interesting point

http://www.andrewcoyne.com/2007/03/todays-...al-case-for.php

His point was that a 1% decrease in GST cost about $5.8 billion. For about $4.4 billion you could've reduced the income tax brackets from 15.5% 22% 26% 29% to 15.5% 22% 25%. His column was from 2007 but now the tax brackets are 15% 22% 26% 29%. If you wanted to spend the full 2% decrease in GST you could've put those 2007 rates at 15.5% 20%. Spending the money in this way wouldn't help lower income Canadians but it'd help middle class Canadians and provide a huge stimulus to the economy.

If we're talking middle class then I can't see how a GST cut helps them more than an equivalent income tax cut and the same for most low income Canadians. Those who are at the bottom of the income scale maybe get more from a GST cut but I haven't seen anyone take into account the GST rebates available to those making less than $30K so I'm not convinced that even they get as much savings as GST cut supporters claim.

[Visionseeker]

The 1, and then another 1% cut in the GST only served to impoverish the federal treasury. What savings did you realize?

It took the CPC a two years before they re-implemented Martin's income tax cuts. Frankly, I'm sick of being taxed on what I earn, tax me on what I spend. Drop income taxes and raise the GST (or some other consumption vehicle like a carbon tax).

Tax me when I spend, not when I earn.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Visionseeker

[Smallc]

The 1, and then another 1% cut in the GST only served to impoverish the federal treasury. What savings did you realize?

Exactly. It makes very little difference to the average person but makes a huge difference in the amount of money the government has on hand. It was a bad idea.

[OddSox]

The GST cut may or may not have been a good idea.

But it was a promise made during an election campaign and presumably some people voted in favour of it. The promise was kept - and the opposition parties had the option of defeating the motion if they felt that it was that horrible a move.

And, as I understood it at the time, the cut to the gasoline excise tax was 'replaced' by the GST cut promise because it would be a wider-based cut that would benefit more people...

[eyeball]

Tax me when I spend, not when I earn.

This should be a battle cry for tax-shifting. Do you mind if I use it for a signature?