Dion agrees to meet Harper in Labour Day showdown

[normanchateau]

Only 90%???

That's nothing, Stephan Dion has agreed with Stephen Harpers legislation on 100% of the Tory agenda for over 2 1/2 years.

Have you forgotten that Harper needs to change legislation to keep the Opposition on side? Remember Harper's 2006 Clean Air Act introduced by Rona Ambrose, and why Harper was forced to revise it?

[Keepitsimple]

That Liberal vote was spread across the country with a right wing that split the vote thereby assuring more seats for the Liberals.

The Tory poll support is influenced heavily by over the top support in Alberta and very strong support in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. There are no more seats to win In Alberta, only one more in Saskatchewan and a handful in Manitoba.

Every pollster has said, and this was confirmed by Tom Flanagan in the Globe and Mail, that the Tories either need over 40% in the polls or a 11% over the next party to win a majority.

I know that many Conservative supporters believe that is going to be a walk in the park or that they only need to be where they are now to get that majority but it is probably a case of wish fulfillment.

I guess you fogot that the Liberals won every seat in Ontario in 1997 and every seat but for 3 in 2000. The Conservatives won ZERO. It's not going to be a walk in the park...but times have changed. Ontario was for years the Liberals' Alberta - except it was twice as big.

[jdobbin]

I guess you fogot that the Liberals won every seat in Ontario in 1997 and every seat but for 3 in 2000.

Nope, I didn't forget. I said because of the split vote the Liberals were able to win seats like that with 38%.

The pollsters say that parties need at 40% in general to win nationally. Unless they are at that mark, or leading by 11% or in the case of the Chretien years: seeing a major split in the vote by other parties, I don't see a majority.

The Conservatives won ZERO. It's not going to be a walk in the park...but times have changed. Ontario was for years the Liberals' Alberta - except it was twice as big.

The Tories will still need 40% at least, 11% above all other parties or a major split of the vote to achieve a majority. Have you seen evidence of that yet?

The best poll yet for the Tories in the last month has them at 37% and a 8% lead.

[Alta4ever]

So what do you mean by progressive? What changes to social policy or other legislation would you like to see that supports your "progressive" governance?

Now I'm not sure what the left means by progressive policies but progessives of the past would include Mussolini, Wilson, and other fanatical socialists, that boarder on marxism, but have a more nationalistic approach.

[blueblood]

So you think Harper will, in a majority situation, govern progressively (i.e. for him all that means will not govern regressively) on issues and not continue down his road of incremental conservatism?

Harper can govern however the hell he wants, he's the one that has to answer to the electorate. If the Canadian public wants conservatism, conservatism they'll get. So yes, in a majority situation Harper will govern to what the electorate will tolerate, he does have elections to win.

Saying the tories will turn into some fascist party when they get a majority is ridiculous. That's like saying the Liberals will turn into communists when they get a majority and we all know they didn't, they like staying in power, same goes with the tories.

[DrGreenthumb]

Saying the tories will turn into some fascist party when they get a majority is ridiculous.

TURN into? Thats like saying an apple will turn into an apple or an orange will turn into an orange! They can't turn into something they already are, they could however be more open about what they already are. Paternalistic authoritarians who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, its obvious to everyone else already, why don't they just come out of the closet already?

[Alta4ever]

TURN into? Thats like saying an apple will turn into an apple or an orange will turn into an orange! They can't turn into something they already are, they could however be more open about what they already are. Paternalistic authoritarians who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, its obvious to everyone else already, why don't they just come out of the closet already?

Do you even know what faciism is, where that ideology came from or its history. IF yo did you wouldn't equate it with real conservatism.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Alta4ever

[Smallc]

Do you even know what faciism is, where that ideology came from or its history. IF yo did you wouldn't equate it with real conservatism.

In many ways, the conservatives aren't real conservatives, especially when it comes to economics.

[DrGreenthumb]

In many ways, the conservatives aren't real conservatives, especially when it comes to economics.

plus its really fun to call them fascists and watch their supporters get their panties in a twist, they practically trip over their jackboots and spill their coffee on their brownshirts lol

[Smallc]

plus its really fun to call them fascists and watch their supporters get their panties in a twist, they practically trip over their jackboots and spill their coffee on their brownshirts lol

Well, I don't believe that they're fascists. They are right of centre when it comes to social issues, something that most Canadians aren't, but they're not Hitler.

[DrGreenthumb]

Well, I don't believe that they're fascists. They are right of centre when it comes to social issues, something that most Canadians aren't, but they're not Hitler.

yes but as they are fond of saying "its a slippery slope".

Today they take our cannabis tommorrow a woman's right to choose.

Throw in some mandaTORY minimums for getting caught with "unnaproved" plant based medicines, and the slope is getting steeper and slicker.

Put a stupid little mustache and some jackboots on Harper and its not that big a stretch,lol

I used for vote for the conservative when they were still Progressive. This party has just stolen their name, and thrown in a little hellfire and brimstone for good measure.

[normanchateau]

Paternalistic authoritarians who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, its obvious to everyone else already, why don't they just come out of the closet already?

There are reasons why religious nuts like Harper who believe that the bible is the literal truth choose not to come out of the closet. This article from the Vancouver Sun by religion editor Doug Todd answers your question:

http://www.gregfelton.com/canpol/2007_08_2...%20article.html

[WIP]

So Harper wants an election because one poll had the Cons with 37% of that poll which was asked from 1000 people. IF voters vote the same way as last, he"ll only have a minority government BUT this time around he's peeved off NFLD and ONTARIO so if there's going to be a minority gov't, I say it could be ANY of the parties. His excuses about not being able to get anywhere with the the other parties is crap. As someone point out, one... how does he really know unless he tries and how hard would HE try and two....things may not change, we'll still have a minority, except the voters it be out more money spent by this gov't. Remember someone said, who ever called for an election vote them out!

I hope he gets his knuckles wrapped for calling an election; because if he does get a majority, then we will really see what he has planned for energy policy, Afghanistan and social policies that his theocon base in Alberta will demand be put in place to start the christianization of government institutions that the Americans are now enjoying.

[capricorn]

plus its really fun to call them fascists and watch their supporters get their panties in a twist,

Yes, trolls tend to do that. They don't have anything of substance to contribute to a debate. Thankfully they're easy to spot.

they practically trip over their jackboots and spill their coffee on their brownshirts lol

See what I mean?

[normanchateau]

because if he does get a majority, then we will really see what he has planned for energy policy, Afghanistan and social policies that his theocon base in Alberta will demand be put in place to start the christianization of government institutions that the Americans are now enjoying.

“We’ve got a born-again prime minister,” trumpets David Mainse, the founder of Canada’s premier Christian talk show, 100 Huntley Street. They see him as an image-savvy evangelical who has been careful to keep his signals to them under the media radar, but they have no doubt his convictions run deep—so deep that only after he wins a majority will he dare translate the true colours of his faith into policies that could remake the fabric of the nation. If they’re right, it remains unclear whether those convictions would turn government into a kinder, gentler guarantor of social justice for all or transform the country into a stern, narrow-minded theocracy. And what would his evangelical worldview mean for international relations?

From Stephen Harper and the Theocons:

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/200...the-theocons/2/

[Fortunata]

This is where centrists and modern conservatives just start shaking their heads. The Left uses the word "progressive" over and over but it never has any context. Canada has a basket of social tools that is the envy of most countries.....from Pensions to Healthcare to Old Age Support, immigration and refugee support, and on and on. These systems have been put in place and tweaked by all stripes of government and no one is going to take them away. Where we differ is in areas of personal responsibility. The Left believes that Government must solve every problem.....support every "poor" person....they beive in Big Government. Conservatives believe in a balance - a healthy balance of personal responsibility and compassion for the truly poor and downtrodden. Conservatives believe in a Justice system that affords people who break the law reasonable opportunities to not enter the Justice System, and rehabilitation, and leniency in parole when they do......but if you flout the law over and over again, a price must be paid. Conservatives believe that the family is society's blessing and should be encouraged and nurtured where possible. These things don't change overnight...so yes, we'll see incremental Conservatism. You'll find that these common-sense examples are favoured by large majorities of Canadians.

So what do you mean by progressive? What changes to social policy or other legislation would you like to see that supports your "progressive" governance?

I consider myself a centrist, my parents are Conservative and even they are wondering if they want to go where Harper does. So it's not just those commie leftists.

Progressive? In this government it means that Harper won't regress into capital punishment, which by the way he already has made a baby step. It means Harper not leaving abortion on the books but stepping around it like they have in some States in the USA making it virtually impossible for women to have an abortion even though it's legal. It means not throwing some teenager into jail for 6 months for growing a marijuana plant. It means not fining the pants off of someone for downloading a song. So many things that aren't just on the horizon but already smack in the face.

And seriously, the bit about personal responsibility is a load of tripe as far as I can see. Harper hasn't accepted responsibility for one thing - it's all the Liberals fault, all the left-leaning media's fault, a biker's fault, the voter's fault they had to reverse people's "constitutional right" to have voted in someone from another party that Harper didn't want, etc. etc.. I see my NDP friend (now there's a lefty for you) take more personal responsibility in one day than I have from this government in 2 years. Seriously. Harper doesn't set a very good standard.

All I want in government is good common sense, some honesty, respect and trying to do good things for the country, not good things just to get them back in power next time. Is that really so much to ask for?

[Fortunata]

Yes, trolls tend to do that. They don't have anything of substance to contribute to a debate. Thankfully they're easy to spot.

See what I mean?

Good example.

There are reasons why religious nuts like Harper who believe that the bible is the literal truth choose not to come out of the closet.

I know Harper is religious but for the life of me I can't see him as a Christian. He doesn't act like it. Maybe he's one of those who hangs his Christianity on the back of the church door when he leaves on Sunday.

[WIP]

“We’ve got a born-again prime minister,” trumpets David Mainse, the founder of Canada’s premier Christian talk show, 100 Huntley Street. They see him as an image-savvy evangelical who has been careful to keep his signals to them under the media radar, but they have no doubt his convictions run deep—so deep that only after he wins a majority will he dare translate the true colours of his faith into policies that could remake the fabric of the nation. If they’re right, it remains unclear whether those convictions would turn government into a kinder, gentler guarantor of social justice for all or transform the country into a stern, narrow-minded theocracy. And what would his evangelical worldview mean for international relations?

From Stephen Harper and the Theocons:

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/200...the-theocons/2/

Well, if Stephen Harper can win evangelical single issue voters while flying under the radar, he'll keep right on doing it. If he gets his majority government, he'll be throwing some red meat their way as a reward; I wonder what he's got to keep them happy and working enthusiastically on the campaign.

I think this goes beyond Harper though, and there is a wider strategy that's also in the provincial conservative parties to go after religiously motivated voters because last year in the Ontario Election, P.C. leader John Tory all of a sudden found religion too! Up until he promised funding for "faith-based schools", I thought the only thing he was interested in was money and prestige; but Tory all of sudden started sounding like George Bush's handlers drove up to Queens Park to teach him how to sound god-fearing.

The plan backfired for a couple of reasons: one, he was going to take 500 million out of the public education budget to doll out to the religious schools, and he was having trouble learning his lines, so he kept making gaffes like allowing religious schools taking public financing to teach creationism:

Mr. Tory's controversial education plan escalated last week when he told reporters that religious schools should be allowed to teach creationism if they receive public funding. His office issued a clarification later that day saying creationism should be explored only in religion class and not elsewhere in the curriculum.

[Shakeyhands]

Citation that Harper is an Evangelical Christian.

Yes Harper is hard core Evie, that's why he buried the SSM debate and why abortion isn't part of his campaign platform.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has been associated with evangelical Protestantism for decades, but it is an aspect of his political agenda about which he seldom talks publicly

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/st...96-76f3db32808e

EDIT: Sorry... didn't see that others had posted the link

Edited September 3, 2008 by Shakeyhands

[White Doors]

plus its really fun to call them fascists and watch their supporters get their panties in a twist, they practically trip over their jackboots and spill their coffee on their brownshirts lol

lol, that got me to laugh I must admit.

[White Doors]

Well, I don't believe that they're fascists. They are right of centre when it comes to social issues, something that most Canadians aren't, but they're not Hitler.

very good, because Nazi's were left on social issues.

See gun registration and confiscation for one.

See nationalization of industry and companies for two

See Hate speech laws for three and on and on.

That the Nazi's were 'right wing' is a myth.

[DrGreenthumb]

I consider myself a centrist, my parents are Conservative and even they are wondering if they want to go where Harper does. So it's not just those commie leftists.

Progressive? In this government it means that Harper won't regress into capital punishment, which by the way he already has made a baby step. It means Harper not leaving abortion on the books but stepping around it like they have in some States in the USA making it virtually impossible for women to have an abortion even though it's legal. It means not throwing some teenager into jail for 6 months for growing a marijuana plant. It means not fining the pants off of someone for downloading a song. So many things that aren't just on the horizon but already smack in the face.

And seriously, the bit about personal responsibility is a load of tripe as far as I can see. Harper hasn't accepted responsibility for one thing - it's all the Liberals fault, all the left-leaning media's fault, a biker's fault, the voter's fault they had to reverse people's "constitutional right" to have voted in someone from another party that Harper didn't want, etc. etc.. I see my NDP friend (now there's a lefty for you) take more personal responsibility in one day than I have from this government in 2 years. Seriously. Harper doesn't set a very good standard.

All I want in government is good common sense, some honesty, respect and trying to do good things for the country, not good things just to get them back in power next time. Is that really so much to ask for?

This post was one of the best I've read here in a long time, thanks fortunatata. Not as much fun as calling them jackbooted thugs, but accurate and makes the appropriate points.

[Ontario Loyalist]

very good, because Nazi's were left on social issues.

See gun registration and confiscation for one.

See nationalization of industry and companies for two

See Hate speech laws for three and on and on.

That the Nazi's were 'right wing' is a myth.

The Nazis generally derived their support from political movements/parties that were on the right; conservatives, ultraconservatives, organizations like Stahlhelm, etc. I'm not sure that Germany was ever obsessed with guns the way that North Americans are; gun ownership for hunting would have been largely restricted to the wealth and large landowners. The Nazis were, however, preoccupied with the military, draconian law enforcement, controlling arts and culture, stamping out liberalism in general--all of which are aspects of current conservative regimes. Looking back on the Nazi regime it's easy to discern what they were all about; for for people living in Nazi Germany, the experience was subtle and the consequences unforseen; many believed or accepted the Nazis as a legitimate and natural political reality, as many believe the Conservatives are in Canada. History will eventually show how bad they really were; I wouldn't consider them to be Nazis, but they are certainly not saints.

[M.Dancer]

very good, because Nazi's were left on social issues.

See gun registration and confiscation for one.

See nationalization of industry and companies for two

See Hate speech laws for three and on and on.

That the Nazi's were 'right wing' is a myth.

The Nazis were ultra authoritarian totalitarian leftists...all for the fatherland, the sublimation of individual rights for the greater good of the state.

Notable and horrific are the Nazi socialized heathcare programmes which in their twisted idea of socialism found the advanced eugenics programmes which in turn led to mass sterilizations and "euthanasia".

It of course goes without saying that foremost in the Nazi social agenda were social welfare programmeswhich unlike today's socialist agenda, didn't allow the bone idle to be idle.

Unlike modern democratic socialism, National Socialism saw the world in a very conservative framework. Feminimism as we know it was unknown.

To call the Nazis socialist over simplifies their philosophy, to call them conservative over simplies the name caller....

[White Doors]

To call the Nazis socialist over simplifies their philosophy, to call them conservative over simplies the name caller....

My point being, it is accepted mythology that the Nazi's were from the extreme right when in fact they had much much more in common with the moden NDP than they do the Harper Tories. More in common with the US Democrats than the Republicans. More in common with the various incantations of the European green party than the British Tories. etc etc.