Harper's Olympic absence

[Argus]

And the stuff we are sending them in increasing amounts.

Raw materials, basically. Stuff they need and can't get cheaper elsewhere.

I think I have pointed out that since Harper was elected in 2006, he has had a hostile relationship with China.

I would hope our government would not have a friendly relationship with brutal dictators. It was embarrassing when we had Chetien sucking up so badly to the Chinese he had his own citizens illegally arrested and pepper sprayed in BC in order to keep their presence from embarrassing the Chinese dictator.

[Argus]

Here's a link to a list published by the Vancouver Sun...

Canada has always had very good relations with Beijing, and that has paid great benefits.

Yeah? Like what?

It has made us a player in the China theatre.

In what way?

[Argus]

It seems as if everyone in this thread is speculating as to why Harper didn't go. Isn't it kind of strange that no one knows?

I didn't go either. How come you don't want to know why?

[Argus]

I think you have that right. It is a matter of face now and China will remember.

So what?

[Argus]

You're thinking is pretty narrow if you're only thinking 2010 and Olympics. China is a country that should not be so easily dismissed.

Well, since they're not going to be sending tanks into Quebec any time soon I'm not too worried.

China is just not that important to Canada.

[jdobbin]

Raw materials, basically. Stuff they need and can't get cheaper elsewhere.

Certainly 80% of trade is raw materials but we also have a lot of Canadians companies looking at selling aerospace products, engineering and architectural services, trains, banking and insurance services, nuclear products and an increasing amount of industrial products.

I would hope our government would not have a friendly relationship with brutal dictators. It was embarrassing when we had Chetien sucking up so badly to the Chinese he had his own citizens illegally arrested and pepper sprayed in BC in order to keep their presence from embarrassing the Chinese dictator.

Harper doesn't have to have a friendly relationship. He does have to have some sort of relationship with a country that accounts for as much trade as China does. At the moment, Harper's stand is probably the most hostile of any leader out there.

[jdobbin]

So what?

I suppose if Harper wants to have an escalation in hostilities, he will continue on this route.

[capricorn]

"Escalation of hostilities", as you know very well Dobbin, is almost always used in the context of military action. Why the blatant exaggeration in relation to Harper's approach to relations with China?

[capricorn]

I would hope our government would not have a friendly relationship with brutal dictators.

It seems some people think trade with these brutal dictatorships is more important than respect for human rights.

[jdobbin]

"Escalation of hostilities", as you know very well Dobbin, is almost always used in the context of military action. Why the blatant exaggeration in relation to Harper's approach to relations with China?

Now who is blatantly exaggerating?

Escalation of hostilities doesn't have to mean war. If China wants to hurt Canada, it can do plenty in terms of trade. We think we have them over a barrel with commodities but Canada can be hurt just as much with a cooling in bilateral trade.

There are plenty of Canadian businesses who have been begging Emerson to ease the hostilities. Other China watchers have said that if Canada wants to free its citizen, it will have to take a different approach than it has done this far.

Harper doesn't have to have warm and friendly relations. He should at least attempt a business-like relation.

The Chinese have escalated their talk about the problem by calling Harper's absence a boycott.

The Conservative response in this forum is "so what" or more of the same from Harper. Sounds like an escalation to me.

[jdobbin]

It seems some people think trade with these brutal dictatorships is more important than respect for human rights.

It seems to me that Conservatives here who support a boycott of China should start with the products in their home.

[eyeball]

In montreal?

Vancouver, 1986.

The round-up I referred to had a greater impact on the mentally ill and addicted. After EXPO and no one was looking they were all kicked back into the streets. You've probably seen similar phenonmenon in Toronto. 2010 may be going down the same path. Link

Rounding up the real hard-core homeless cases just makes room for all the new people getting kicked into the street. I can't imagine anyone deliberately plans this but it's how it seems to work out time and time again. This bump effect is felt throughout the rest of society as mental health wards in hospitals fill up. There is less room for 'normal' people who suddenly find themselves stricken with a mental illness resulting in less than adequate treatment. As the jails fill up they have to release other prisoners earlier to make room for homeless people.

In just about any other case where thousands of Canadians suddenly find themselves homeless the army usually responds with emergency shelters, food, medicine etc. I guess that sort of response, assuming we even have any troops to spare, would only serve to highlight the problem which is probably the last thing the authorities want.

I guess we'll have to rely on the Chinese to embarass us some more. So I wonder what China does with its mentally ill homeless people?

[capricorn]

It seems to me that Conservatives here who support a boycott of China should start with the products in their home.

In the last 2 years I have avoided Chinese products and seek out Canadian and US products. I also buy more goods manufactured in India.

[eyeball]

I would hope our government would not have a friendly relationship with brutal dictators. It was embarrassing when we had Chetien sucking up so badly to the Chinese he had his own citizens illegally arrested and pepper sprayed in BC in order to keep their presence from embarrassing the Chinese dictator.

Why? You don't seem to have any problem with cozying up to other countries who cozy up to dictators. This reminds me of the complaint that Canada is a military laughing stock on the world stage because we're so reliant on the US for the real heavy lifting. It seems we have to rely on them to do all the dirty work of cozying up to dictators too.

[jdobbin]

In the last 2 years I have avoided Chinese products and seek out Canadian and US products. I also buy more goods manufactured in India.

Now you should stop buying from Canadian companies who trade with China if you feel that strongly about their country.

[guyser]

Raw materials, basically. Stuff they need and can't get cheaper elsewhere.

Heaven forbid our economy make gains trading with China. Fourth largest market Canada has , fourth largest market we have made money from.

Yeah, lets cut that nonsense out.

Here is what the Cato Institute says...

"Last year, China was the fourth largest market in the world for Canadian exports, behind only the United States, Japan and the United Kingdom. While Canada's exports to the rest of the world have risen 20% in the past five years, exports to China are up 91%. Provoking a trade war with China would hit millions of Canadian families in the pocketbook and put billions of dollars in potential exports at risk. "

Yes, billions.

I would hope our government would not have a friendly relationship with brutal dictators. It was embarrassing when we had Chetien sucking up so badly to the Chinese he had his own citizens illegally arrested and pepper sprayed in BC in order to keep their presence from embarrassing the Chinese dictator.

Then again, Chretien perhaps paved the way for trade to increase?

Brutal dictators have slaves , you like slavery, ergo you like China. Why all the breast beating now?Did your conscience awake?

Edited August 14, 2008 by guyser

[Argus]

It seems to me that Conservatives here who support a boycott of China should start with the products in their home.

Been doing my best for some years now but it's almost impossible to totally boycott Chinese products, even if you're welling to pay a lot more for something made elsewhere - almost anywhere else.

[Argus]

Certainly 80% of trade is raw materials but we also have a lot of Canadians companies looking at selling aerospace products, engineering and architectural services, trains, banking and insurance services, nuclear products and an increasing amount of industrial products.

The difference between selling anything like that to China, and selling it to, say, the US, is that China insists the company go there and build the products, then it hints very strongly and very darkly that whatever profits the company makes ought to be reinvested in China if that company hopes to get any further contracts. So those "sales" while they enrich the bottom line of Canadian companies, don't really do much for Canada.

Certainly not enough to counterbalance the jobs lost to Chinese workers.

[Argus]

Heaven forbid our economy make gains trading with China. Fourth largest market Canada has , fourth largest market we have made money from.

Yeah, lets cut that nonsense out.

Here is what the Cato Institute says...

"Last year, China was the fourth largest market in the world for Canadian exports, behind only the United States, Japan and the United Kingdom. While Canada's exports to the rest of the world have risen 20% in the past five years, exports to China are up 91%. Provoking a trade war with China would hit millions of Canadian families in the pocketbook and put billions of dollars in potential exports at risk. "

Yes, billions.

Ah yes, billions and BIILLLIons of er, potential exports. Reminds me of the old days when Chretien would take over a big cohort of Canadian businessmen and politicians and they'd spend days on their knees sucking up to the Chinese (or Indians or Pakistanis), and go away with BILLIONS in er, potential sales, most of which never materialized.

Our economy does not make gains trading with China. In fact, we have a huge and growing trade deficit with them. It is China which would lose out in any kind of trade war.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Argus

[jdobbin]

Been doing my best for some years now but it's almost impossible to totally boycott Chinese products, even if you're welling to pay a lot more for something made elsewhere - almost anywhere else.

Next, will be to boycott Canadian companies trading with China?

[jdobbin]

The difference between selling anything like that to China, and selling it to, say, the US, is that China insists the company go there and build the products, then it hints very strongly and very darkly that whatever profits the company makes ought to be reinvested in China if that company hopes to get any further contracts. So those "sales" while they enrich the bottom line of Canadian companies, don't really do much for Canada.

Certainly not enough to counterbalance the jobs lost to Chinese workers.

The trade numbers seem to indicate a growing amount of industrial products built in Canada going to China. The problem is what we are getting more consumer products that were once built in the U.S. now being built in China.

Not as many Canadian companies have set up manufacturing in China.

[guyser]

Ah yes, billions and BIILLLIons of er, potential exports. Reminds me of the old days when Chretien would take over a big cohort of Canadian businessmen and politicians and they'd felate the Chinese (or Indians or Pakistanis) for days, and go away with BILLIONS in er, potential sales, most of which never materialized.

Thanks for the story. Fun read since I like fantasy.

We do $20B of importing from China, and export about $6B. Obviously you dont make anything for sale or need to source goods for manufacturing.

Our economy does not make gains trading with China. In fact, we have a huge and growing trade deficit with them. It is China which would lose out in any kind of trade war.

You think China is scared? I dont. Drop in the bucket for them.

Still pining for the slaves? Or is that drooling for them?

Edited August 14, 2008 by guyser

[Fortunata]

It was embarrassing when we had Chetien sucking up so badly to the Chinese he had his own citizens illegally arrested and pepper sprayed in BC in order to keep their presence from embarrassing the Chinese dictator.

The APEC incident wasn't about China iirc, it was about Indonesia's Suharto.

[Wild Bill]

In the last 2 years I have avoided Chinese products and seek out Canadian and US products. I also buy more goods manufactured in India.

+1! I've been doing the same! I'm glad Harper has instituted label and packaging laws that will make the country of source more plain.

A few months ago I was standing in a supermarket aisle looking at cans of beans, trying to decide which ones were actually Canadian. The biggest puzzle was with Heinz beans. The label told me that the can came from Leamington, Ontario and that it was made by union workers. That was it.

I noticed an older gentleman beside me also reading labels and I commented to him "You think if they won't tell you plainly if they're Canadian beans they likely aren't?"

"Absolutely!" he replied. Turns out he was a label reader like me, for the same reasons. We avoided products from China and even Sultana raisins from Iran!

I don't know if there's a significant trend starting amongst Canadians but I do know that I'm not the only one!

[HisSelf]

It seems as if everyone in this thread is speculating as to why Harper didn't go. Isn't it kind of strange that no one knows? Why hasn't it been addressed? Seems to me if it were in protest, he would be making that known. What good is a protest is no one knows you are protesting? Personally, I find it odd that he didn't go and I'm glad that Bush did. This is a major event-- the first time the Olympics are being held in China-- and it's a huge deal to the Chinese. For that reason, I don't think it's comparable to other missed games.

It doesn't matter why he wasn't there. This was the biggest show on earth that day. Bush was there. Putin was there. This was THE BIG SHOW. Harper made a BIG mistake.