Harper's Olympic absence

[eyeball]

QUOTE(American Woman @ Aug 14 2008, 02:52 PM)

What does Bush have to do with the Olympics in China?-- Why would Bush care if Harper attended or not?

What do you mean care? Bush probably hasn't even noticed yet.

In the minds of many, Harper rides Dubya's coattails, hence they are surprised Harper did not attend to be right there beside Bush in Beijing to showcase his supposed unqualified support for your President. At the same time these people feel compelled to congratulate Bush for attending the games. It's one instance where the anti-Harper crowd has put their anti-Americanism aside in order to intensify the slam against Harper.

I have little that's good to say about Harper and have even less regard for Bush but I'm glad to see Harper stayed in Canada. The one instance I did a double take at anything Bush did was the time he acknowledged that western interferance in the affairs of African countries had caused a lot of problems there. Anyone else catch that?

[jdobbin]

That's what happens when you stand up for human rights, even the rights of the Chinese people.

One wonders if he could have done that while attending the Olympics.

[Fortunata]

He has been direct with the Chinese government regarding their country's poor human rights record and he has been consistent from the start. Much has been said about the pitfalls of ruffling China's ruffles by not attending the Olympics. Yet, his no show (intentional or not) is consistent with the position he has taken. Here is a very interesting article about the divergent views inside China about our PM's absence in Beijing. I won't quote it as it needs to be entirely read to get its gist.

Yep, there's the right way go about things and then there's Harper's way.

[eyeball]

I don't believe in isolating China, I'm saying Harper can do what he wants, so can the Chinese. Harper I think has met with Chinese leaders, not in China though.

Your right it is a bilateral relationship, Harper can call out the Chinese on human rights and snub them, and the Chinese can call Harper an arrogant ass and snub our Olympics in return. But both countries benefit greatly from each other, Canada likes it's cheap goods and China likes our primary resources, which is why I think nothing trade related will happen.

Another example is Trudeau with the Americans in the 70's, how badly did the Americans punish us for having a good relationship with Fidel Castro?

I wonder how many Americans benefitted from the back door we provided?

I'd be more interested in isolating Canada to some extent. We have more than just a moral obligation to do so. We should be doing so to stop wasting energy and the impact that burning it has on our planet's ecosystems. Using dwindling supplies of fuel to transport natural resources and consumables to and fro around the world is just plain dumb and its immoral to boot too. Most of what we need we can produce right here in Canada.

[capricorn]

Yep, there's the right way go about things and then there's Harper's way.

How did you put that Fortunata? Oh yeah. "Sigh ... so partisanly predictable."

[capricorn]

One wonders if he could have done that while attending the Olympics.

Of course he could have. But as others have said his absence spoke volumes. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if and how China will punish Canada for his (non) actions.

[jefferiah]

His issue with the Chinese government is now regarded as an affront to the Chinese people.

Oh no, did we offend them?

[jdobbin]

Oh no, did we offend them?

And their computer hackers are now tracking you down now. Better run.

[Fortunata]

How did you put that Fortunata? Oh yeah. "Sigh ... so partisanly predictable."

You think that is just partisan rhetoric? Well, we'll see if Harper's methods work. Nothing like embarrassing publicly the Chinese to make them come around to your way of thinking is there?

[blueblood]

I wonder how many Americans benefitted from the back door we provided?

I'd be more interested in isolating Canada to some extent. We have more than just a moral obligation to do so. We should be doing so to stop wasting energy and the impact that burning it has on our planet's ecosystems. Using dwindling supplies of fuel to transport natural resources and consumables to and fro around the world is just plain dumb and its immoral to boot too. Most of what we need we can produce right here in Canada.

If we isolate Canada our economy goes in the toilet. Our country's economy and your prized social programs are dependant on the revenue generated from our exports. We can produce almost all of our goods inside of Canada when factory workers realize that demanding 70,000 a year is a good way to kill industry. Planet's ecosystems have been dying for 4.5 billion years and will die for 4.5 billion more.

[eyeball]

I said to some extent, not all. Perhaps insulate would be a better way to put it. Speaking of toilets our economy looks like its perched on the rim of the same one that others have tumbled into.

Story

The best thing that could happen is we'll come out of this with a better appreciation for greater levels of self-sufficiency and sustainability.

Factory workers probably won't give up demands for $70,000 until factory executives give up demands for $700,000. Why should they? In the meantime more of us will probably be coming to the conclusion that we really don't need 3/4 of the crap they produce anyway.

[blueblood]

I said to some extent, not all. Perhaps insulate would be a better way to put it. Speaking of toilets our economy looks like its perched on the rim of the same one that others have tumbled into.

Story

The best thing that could happen is we'll come out of this with a better appreciation for greater levels of self-sufficiency and sustainability.

Factory workers probably won't give up demands for $70,000 until factory executives give up demands for $700,000. Why should they? In the meantime more of us will probably be coming to the conclusion that we really don't need 3/4 of the crap they produce anyway.

If that executive makes the company a few million or billion on the size of the company, he's entitled to that share. Anybody can turn a wrench and press buttons, not everyone can run a company.

It's perched but not falling in. Since we have diversified away from manufacturing, we'll be fine.

[Argus]

Businessmen, corporations.

Uh huh.

Tories: almost all donations in small amounts from ordinary Canadians.

Liberals: Almost all donations in large amounts from the wealthy elites and big corporate interests.

Tell me again about who owns the Tories as opposed to who owns the Liberals?

Tit for tat. Great idea.

I didn't suggest it. I stated that would happen. Since it would happen, the Chinese are extremely unlikely to start a war they can't win.

[Argus]

His issue with the Chinese government is now regarded as an affront to the Chinese people.

Bullshit. 99.99% of the Chinese people couldn't name the PM of Canada to save their lives. It's an affront to the Liberals. No doubt you're all desperate for Dion to get in so he can run off to China, get on his knees, and start licking their shoes while begging for trade deals.

[Smallc]

Tories: almost all donations in small amounts from ordinary Canadians.

Liberals: Almost all donations in large amounts from the wealthy elites and big corporate interests.

Large amounts? Large amounts aren't allowed in Canada. Also, it has been said in the media before that the Tories have many corporate donors.

[Guest American Woman]

QUOTE=jdobbin: His issue with the Chinese government is now regarded as an affront to the Chinese people.

Bullshit. 99.99% of the Chinese people couldn't name the PM of Canada to save their lives. It's an affront to the Liberals. No doubt you're all desperate for Dion to get in so he can run off to China, get on his knees, and start licking their shoes while begging for trade deals.

China was isolated from the rest of the world for a long time, and a large part of its population is rural/poor, but I think you greatly underestimate their knowledge if you really believe that 99.99% of them couldn't name Canada's PM.

I'm in total agreement with jdobbin. Harper's non-attendance will be regarded as an affront to the Chinese people. As I read through this thread and see all the comments about the government, I too have thought about the people. They are so proud of this event, of their nation, and I can understand why Harper's absence would be seen as an affront to them. There are so many Chinese in Canada, so obviously the Chinese think highly of your nation.

But to think they are ignorant, as your 99.99% suggests, is to totally misjudge the Chinese. I've been to preschools and grade schools in China and the kids and their studies are very impressive, to say the least.

I think China may be one of the most under-estimated nations by a lot of people. But even if you want to dismiss the importance of a nation of over one billion people, if you think ignoring them is the way to make change, I couldn't disagree more. Opening up the nation to other people is the surest way to make more people aware of what's going on there; it's the surest way to let the Chinese government know that other people are aware. It's easy for hidden things to continue; it's not as easy when they are more out in the open.

Edited August 16, 2008 by American Woman

[Argus]

Large amounts? Large amounts aren't allowed in Canada. Also, it has been said in the media before that the Tories have many corporate donors.

Yes, you are partially correct. And the loss of all those rich corporate donors has put the Liberal Party on the edge of bankruptcy. That shows just how important they were. The vast majority of money the Tories get are in small amounts from individuals. They have many corporate donors? How when that's illegal?

[Argus]

China was isolated from the rest of the world for a long time, and a large part of its population is rural/poor, but I think you greatly underestimate their knowledge if you really believe that 99.99% of them couldn't name Canada's PM.

Uh huh. And how many AMERICANS could name Canada's PM? For that matter, how many Americans could name the president of China? If the US had an olympic games, and the prime minister of Denmark didn't come to the opening ceremonies, would that be a huge national concern?

[Guest American Woman]

If the US had an olympic games, and the prime minister of Denmark didn't come to the opening ceremonies, would that be a huge national concern?

The U.S. has had Olympic Games, so it's not an "if" situation. As has already been pointed out, this was a first for China-- and it's a biggie. It's China opening itself up to the rest of the world in a way that's never been done before. If you think Beijing's hosting the Olympics is the equivalent to L.A., for example, hosting the Games, you really don't know that much about it. Americans as a whole really don't care if the Games are hosted here or not, while getting the bid was a huge deal to the Chinese. They've been preparing for the Games in a big way ever since they got the bid. They've been wanting to show Beijing to the world since they won the bid, and it's understandable that Harper's non-attendance would be seen as an affront under the circumstances.

Again, I'm surprised he didn't go. I'm surprised he wasn't aware of what a big deal the Olympics are to China; or if he was aware and still chose not to go, I'm surprised that he would make such a poor judgment call.

And how many AMERICANS could name Canada's PM? For that matter, how many Americans could name the president of China?

What does that have to do with Harper attending/not attending the Olympics in China?

Edited August 16, 2008 by American Woman

[jdobbin]

Bullshit. 99.99% of the Chinese people couldn't name the PM of Canada to save their lives. It's an affront to the Liberals. No doubt you're all desperate for Dion to get in so he can run off to China, get on his knees, and start licking their shoes while begging for trade deals.

The Chinese people don't have to be able name the Canadian prime minister. All they have to do is hear from their media that the Canadian government leader is boycotting the Olympics to fuel their growing nationalism.

[jefferiah]

The Chinese people don't have to be able name the Canadian prime minister. All they have to do is hear from their media that the Canadian government leader is boycotting the Olympics to fuel their growing nationalism.

Assuming this is true, in that case we would never be able to appease them anyways. But I assume Argus is right.

[jdobbin]

Assuming this is true, in that case we would never be able to appease them anyways. But I assume Argus is right.

No need to appease, no need to provoke. Canada can remain an advocate for human rights and still meet the Chinese leadership and attend things like the Olympics.

[jefferiah]

No need to appease, no need to provoke. Canada can remain an advocate for human rights and still meet the Chinese leadership and attend things like the Olympics.

Yeah but what I'm saying is, if his absence is really a serious provocation, then they cant be appeased or you cant avoid provocation, whatever. You might as well not worry about it. Who cares if someone doesnt show up at a sporting event? Whoopdee. They'll get over it. You won't. But that's your primary function here. To find little reasons to get pissed off at Harper.

[jdobbin]

Yeah but what I'm saying is, if his absence is really a serious provocation, then they cant be appeased or you cant avoid provocation, whatever. You might as well not worry about it. Who cares if someone doesnt show up at a sporting event? Whoopdee. They'll get over it. You won't. But that's your primary function here. To find little reasons to get pissed off at Harper.

It seems some of those on the right have a problem with personalizing. They just can't post without doing it.

Many of the people who are natural Harper allies have indicated they disagree with Harper's China policy and say that it isn't achieving whatever it is Harper is wanting to achieve.

[blueblood]

It seems some of those on the right have a problem with personalizing. They just can't post without doing it.

Many of the people who are natural Harper allies have indicated they disagree with Harper's China policy and say that it isn't achieving whatever it is Harper is wanting to achieve.

Of course it's achieving what he wants. Harper believes China is a crock. He's calling them on it and bringing it to everyone's attention and is doing it well and efficiently. If his actions are helping to turn the gears inside the chinese people's heads that communism is not a good thing and should be stopped, shouldn't he be praised for that? The chinese wanted to put on this show and make a splash, they even went to extreme lengths to try and make themselves look good, Harper threw a monkey wrench in that plan. You even said that the Chinese are very upset with him. It appears to everyone that Chinese mentality is that the world needs China so China can do whatever it wants; Harper is waving his middle finger at China because there are other big economies to do business with. Harper has succeeded in taking China down a peg, bravo.