Presence

[margrace]

if we all realized that in each of us there is a Presence. That Presence is part of the universe and God is the universe? HOw woul we change the world or even this forum if we all recognized what the Ego in us is and what we could do if we decided not to allow it to control us.

[AngusThermopyle]

It appears that your thread is based in an assumption that there is a god. This is very much an open question as no proof has ever been presented for the existence of God, so therefore the question of God being the universe is very much in doubt.

would it not be better to encourage people to behave in more humane ways through the use of moral guidelines rather than appealing to an unproven entity to provide our guidance?

[White Doors]

I think someone read a book from Oprah's picks and really really likes it.

[GostHacked]

That presence is my consience. My soul. My being. There is no room for anything else. My soul and concience allows me to control that ego.

God does not need to be with me, if he/she exists, he/she knows I have it under control.

[charter.rights]

It appears that your thread is based in an assumption that there is a god. This is very much an open question as no proof has ever been presented for the existence of God, so therefore the question of God being the universe is very much in doubt.

would it not be better to encourage people to behave in more humane ways through the use of moral guidelines rather than appealing to an unproven entity to provide our guidance?

One need not prove the existence of God to the world. One need only prove it to him or herself. Once that is done there is no need to defend that proof to anyone. Besides, we are not talking about a Christian God which hides behind the word of man. It is more a Higher Power which each individual recognizes as their own substance.

Morality in modern society is corrupt. It would be useless to use morality as a guide, except by and for those that want to prolong their own corruption.

It is better to rely upon the good that exists in the world than to get into bed with a corrupt morality.

[charter.rights]

That presence is my consience. My soul. My being. There is no room for anything else. My soul and concience allows me to control that ego.

God does not need to be with me, if he/she exists, he/she knows I have it under control.

Ha ha ha....Your statement PROVES that the ego is in control.

[AngusThermopyle]

Morality in modern society is corrupt. It would be useless to use morality as a guide, except by and for those that want to prolong their own corruption.

It is better to rely upon the good that exists in the world than to get into bed with a corrupt morality.

You assume that I rely upon society to provide my moral compass, in that assumption lies the flaw within your point. Given that there is plenty of bad in this world finding the good may not be so cut and dried. The fact that I am an adult of reasonable intelligence should be indicator enough that I can determine right from wrong and "evil" from good without society or "god" having to point this out to me. Discounting morality as corrupt and useless merely serves to illustrate an extreme bias or prejudice, something that could be described as morally bankrupt or corrupt in actual fact.

Having said that I believe it should be clear enough that I do not require either some internalized mythical being or an externally voiced mythical being to provide my moral compass. If one finds it necessary to attribute any finer conditions of the human state to this being then more power to them. However it does not mean that one must believe in this mythical being in order to be capable of displaying the better parts of human nature.

[margrace]

Interesting comments, please keep it up. Do you believe that it is all right to look at another person and make a judgement of them?

[charter.rights]

You assume that I rely upon society to provide my moral compass, in that assumption lies the flaw within your point. Given that there is plenty of bad in this world finding the good may not be so cut and dried. The fact that I am an adult of reasonable intelligence should be indicator enough that I can determine right from wrong and "evil" from good without society or "god" having to point this out to me. Discounting morality as corrupt and useless merely serves to illustrate an extreme bias or prejudice, something that could be described as morally bankrupt or corrupt in actual fact.

Having said that I believe it should be clear enough that I do not require either some internalized mythical being or an externally voiced mythical being to provide my moral compass. If one finds it necessary to attribute any finer conditions of the human state to this being then more power to them. However it does not mean that one must believe in this mythical being in order to be capable of displaying the better parts of human nature.

I know where good lies: in my Self. So finding it is not that difficult. If you look for good in others you will be persistently disappointed since your own prejudices (embraced by the ego) warp your perceptions. Your senses deceive you and your "belief" is your own rationalization and intelligence, is a false witness. You don't need a God, but being void of one is the breeding ground of the ego. And if the world is full of insanity by what measure do you (and can you) judge sanity? Relying upon the ego and the perceptions coddled by the ego is to suggest that insanity can know a sane person. Yet a sane person can know an insane person and recognize the thoughts that are not based on reality..

I don't judge in the same way that you do. I observe and use my perception to determine whether what you say comes from the connection to the "Is" or whether or not it comes from the ego. Once freed form the ego's grip it is easy to see where the ego gets its power, and who uses that power for ego's gain. It is also easy to see the "Is" in others once the ego is confronted and one no longer depends on insanity to guide them. That is why morality is corrupt - insanity cannot be a moral state any more than it can define reality.

Your denial is telling since the mythical deity you worship is the ego. That is clear. And yet you deny the presence of God or "Is" you also embrace yourself - your ego - as being the master of all. So to suggest that your do not rely upon an "internalized mythical being" is in itself a myth. You can't recognize where your thought system is driven from being rooted in the insane belief that you can rationalize truth in yourself. In order to be more than yourself you must first be willing to accept that your individual thinking processes are flawed. My bet is that you are in denial of that idea. But then again the ego is all about denial. That is how it obtains and maintains its power over you.

[charter.rights]

Interesting comments, please keep it up. Do you believe that it is all right to look at another person and make a judgement of them?

As I mentioned in the earlier post, it is impossible for an insane man to recognize and adjust his thinking when enveloped in his own craziness. However a sane man can recognize an insane man and the insane acts he makes. This is not judgment, nor does it produce condemnation. It is a mere observation from a perspective rooted wholly in reality.

[AngusThermopyle]

Ahhh, your usual style. How on earth would you know anything at all about my ego or how I percieve the world, as usual you are projecting your beliefs and placing them upon others. If anything that is one of the hallmarks of the true egoist.

Here's a little clue as to my thought processes. You are correct, I do not believe in a god, however I also see Humans, including myself as deeply flawed and preoccupied with themselves to the exclusion of other concerns. Further, as such I take great pains to view things from a detached perspective. I see no need to rely on some unidentified and unproven entity to provide a moral compass. I further do not understand your insistence that unless one does so then one is insane.

You then make the strong implication that I am insane because I do not share your views. Views I might add that include the somewhat odd assertion that reality is only what you perceive it to be and is therefore subject to change at your behest. That would appear to be an indicator of an unstable thought process, don't ya think?

Having said that I will further point out that any discussion involving the ego or the id is subject to personal beliefs and not based in observable fact. Freud used to be of great interest to me until I discovered tha despite some ground breaking work he was actually a slave to his ego. After discovering this I decided that I would not discount his theories but rather view them with a healthy skepticism. Any who would take all of Freuds work at face value really should look at themselves, they'll surely find Freuds ego at work, perhaps even examples of the super ego which was another of Freuds postulations.

By the way, when you talk of the "is" I believe you are mistakenly referring to the "id". You should read up a little on the subject before feeling bold enough to accuse others of being insane.

[August1991]

Present.

[charter.rights]

Ahhh, your usual style. How on earth would you know anything at all about my ego or how I percieve the world, as usual you are projecting your beliefs and placing them upon others. If anything that is one of the hallmarks of the true egoist.

Here's a little clue as to my thought processes. You are correct, I do not believe in a god, however I also see Humans, including myself as deeply flawed and preoccupied with themselves to the exclusion of other concerns. Further, as such I take great pains to view things from a detached perspective. I see no need to rely on some unidentified and unproven entity to provide a moral compass. I further do not understand your insistence that unless one does so then one is insane.

You then make the strong implication that I am insane because I do not share your views. Views I might add that include the somewhat odd assertion that reality is only what you perceive it to be and is therefore subject to change at your behest. That would appear to be an indicator of an unstable thought process, don't ya think?

Having said that I will further point out that any discussion involving the ego or the id is subject to personal beliefs and not based in observable fact. Freud used to be of great interest to me until I discovered tha despite some ground breaking work he was actually a slave to his ego. After discovering this I decided that I would not discount his theories but rather view them with a healthy skepticism. Any who would take all of Freuds work at face value really should look at themselves, they'll surely find Freuds ego at work, perhaps even examples of the super ego which was another of Freuds postulations.

By the way, when you talk of the "is" I believe you are mistakenly referring to the "id". You should read up a little on the subject before feeling bold enough to accuse others of being insane.

Nah. I'm not referring to the ID - Freud's identify of the basic self. Nor are we discussing Freud's definition of the ego. That is elementary psychology, son. We are way beyond that. The fact that you don't understand the discussion is evidence of your being "out there". The ego is a projected entity that was given to you against your will from the day you were born and it dominates all your thought processes. It is the insane belief that you are a "human doing" an man of roles and adjectives. You don't "think" from a "detached" perspective because you don't even know where you are standing.

And no I am not projecting myself onto you. I understand you much more than you understand yourself. You can't understand yourself until you get rid of your insanity and unfortunately that is a both painful and necessary process you must undertake first. Personally I don't think you are man enough to go through it because you would have to expose your fears to all of creation. I'm betting you'll be one who won't get it until the brink of death....and then it will be too late to enjoy the "Is" and the power derived from knowing "thy Self".

[AngusThermopyle]

I understand you much more than you understand yourself. You can't understand yourself until you get rid of your insanity

You know what? I was actually reading what you were saying until you got to this point. Thats where you blew it.

Just look at what you posted, a few psychology for dummies books and you are pronouncing people insane over the internet!

That strikes me as just a little insane.

[charter.rights]

You know what? I was actually reading what you were saying until you got to this point. Thats where you blew it.

Just look at what you posted, a few psychology for dummies books and you are pronouncing people insane over the internet!

That strikes me as just a little insane.

Nah. This isn't in any "Psychology for Dummies" book. Nor is it in any book per se. It exists as an understanding among those of us that have bridged the ego and gone beyond ourselves. It is part of the journey of knowing who and what God really is, not as some worship worthy deity but as part of us. Religion is rooted fully in the ego as humans attempt to use the mysticism of the universe for their own gains. Those of us who belong to the experience or "Presence" don't need religious dogma or ego-based human existence as an excuse for understanding how the universe works. Rather, we all understand that it changes according to our perceptions and if we want to change the material world, all we need to do is change our perceptions. That way we are not detached from anything in the universe, from God or the "Is". We are part of the entire experience, whether it comes through you or it comes through some Somalian 4,000 miles away.

You see yourself as separate and secretive. Yet that is where you place your faith, in the protection of the mythical self - the ego - it continually deceives you. Your thinking mind has been conditioned by other ego-based people like a virus that spreads from soul to soul, and although you might ~think~ your are deciding for yourself all of your decisions have already been made for you. You act and react according to that conditioning.

"That strikes me as just a little insane."

Of course it does. You can't know anything more than the references you draw from and the ego is bound to protect you from knowing the Truth. That's part of your conditioning - to attack anything you don't understand because it reduces the power of the ego, and it makes you fear that if you don't own the knowledge personally then you are somehow less powerful than the teacher. When you understand that each of us knows everything there is to know equally, but have forgotten where the Source of all that knowledge comes from then you might begin to see the actual picture Being afraid of the Truth is a defense mechanism of the ego and you appear so deeply entrenched it is highly likely you won't be awakened until the brink of death - the time that your freedom actually begins.

Edited August 12, 2008 by charter.rights

[margrace]

A very basic description of how the EGO works is this. I state that the sky is blue and you state that the sky is azure. Both statements but when I next say I know it is blue, then that is the EGO at work.

The EGO is our need to control, argue and fight.

What I have learned is that I check out my motives for anything I am going to say and if it is negative then I know that the EGO is there waiting to start something.

Edited August 12, 2008 by margrace

[M.Dancer]

if we all realized that in each of us there is a Presence. That Presence is part of the universe and God is the universe? HOw woul we change the world or even this forum if we all recognized what the Ego in us is and what we could do if we decided not to allow it to control us.

What if I, as a presence and part of the universe...had a really bad case of gas...would God be gassy too? Is god gas?

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us

Just a stranger on the bus

Trying to make his way home

[GostHacked]

Ha ha ha....Your statement PROVES that the ego is in control.

God can't save me, because I can do it myself. If that defines my ego. Then so be it. My ego is not bigger than me, my ego fits me just fine. It allows me to have faith in myself. Because only I can change things in my life for the better. Only I will be able to get myself out of debt, and out of other situations. The mystical entity that is god or whatever never has helped me in the past.

As the line goes, God helps those who help themselves?

[AngusThermopyle]

Nor is it in any book per se. It exists as an understanding among those of us that have bridged the ego and gone beyond ourselves.

So, in other words just more of your unfounded made up crap and opinions. What an interesting style of debate you have, first declare all but yourself to be insane, then make up unprovable illogical crap and announce any who do not buy it are insane so they cant possibly understand. How lame can you possibly get?

If thats the best you can do then you should just save it and spare yourself the embarrassment. Conversely you could just exercise those amazing powers of yours. Just imagine that we all agree with you and presto! We'll all agree with you as you will have altered reality to fit your perceptions.

And you really have the nerve to call others insane, perhaps you should look in a mirror before making such statements.

[HisSelf]

I agree that there is a presence. In fact a blessed quartet: Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

It doesn't explain everything but it's a damned sight better than myth.

Edited August 12, 2008 by HisSelf

[AngusThermopyle]

I agree that there is a presence. In fact a blessed quartet: Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

It doesn't explain everything but it's a damned sight better than myth.

wow! It may surprise you but for once I find myself in total agreement with you.

[HisSelf]

wow! It may surprise you but for once I find myself in total agreement with you.

High five. Er... four.

Edited August 12, 2008 by HisSelf

[charter.rights]

I agree that there is a presence. In fact a blessed quartet: Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

It doesn't explain everything but it's a damned sight better than myth.

It doesn't explain everything but it's a damned sight better than myth.

No one is talking about myth. There is lots of anecdotal evidence out there that cannot be explained with your four limitations. There is proof that the four cannot explain that has perplexed scientists for ages. And much of it lies in convergence of not only the four you mention but in psychology, mysticism and natural world phenomenon. When you look beyond the limitations provided by traditional science there are still answers to be found.

The greatest limitation of discovery not only in scientific terms but in spiritual and psychological terms as well, is the ego. Science in its truest sense is ethereal. When one begins to try to use past discoveries to explain new phenomena then it is no longer science but "dogma" - the same dogma that leads to entrenched religion. Living within the "Is" or the "Presence" does not discard science as part of the answer to questions. Neither do we disregard a spiritual interconnection to events, knowing one very simple principle: "Cause always precedes 'Effect' ". Once one understands how far reaching this really is (at least in the current reality) then everything becomes part of the cause and the effect simultaneously. It leaves us with the ultimate question in trying to determine what reality really is. Are we the dreamer, or the dreamed?

In dreams we can change our environment, challenge our fears and enjoy lustful and sensual pleasures without hurting anyone including ourselves, and completely in the safety of our slumber. If we take the position that reality means that we are the dreamer than what we decide, the decisions we make and the thoughts we have will change our interactions with reality. It reminds me of a book that I read a number of times. Each time I read it understanding the principles it was conveying the words changed meaning and evolved with my understanding. In essences each time I read it, I was reading a new and different book. That is how dreamer reality works. We can control, project and harmonize with others, the life we wish to live.

On the other hand living as being "the dreamed", the ego controls us through fear, consequences, pain and wishful thinking. It limits us to being under the control of someone and something else. It limits us as helpless victims of life and when we are confronted with the potential for greater advancement, it sabotages us or restricts us through fear. The ego keeps us in the state of being dreamed and locks us into a life of limitation, and limited discovery. This is like a scientist who would reject a possibility because it does not fit within his known set of data. If we rely upon what we know at any given time then we limit our ability to grown beyond and give the ego power to control over us.

This is not just a shift in thinking or a philosophical view. It is a life altering evolution that takes our ability not only beyond the basis of present day science but into realms where "nothing" cannot exist and making reality be anything we want.

I can understand why AngusThermopyle might be angry at having his thinking challenged. The ego uses anger as a defense mechanism. Becoming a "dreamer" means that the ego no longer can control him and that amount of fear of losing the basis for his existence can be devastating. That is why coming truly into the "Presence" in harmony with the "Is" is both the most painful and most enlightening life altering experience one can ever go through. Unfortunately, one cannot die without having the experience since the ego must fight for survival before death can liberate our spirit.

[M.Dancer]

Ego = I think therefore the universe which revolves around me exists.....

[AngusThermopyle]

No one is talking about myth. There is lots of anecdotal evidence out there that cannot be explained with your four limitations.

The first problem is that its anecdotal evidence, in other words no evidence at all. The second problem arises when people discount these disciplines due to a lack of understanding and knowledge relating to the subject. I can understand why you discount them as you've shown many times that you have an exceedingly poor grasp of the sciences.

. When one begins to try to use past discoveries to explain new phenomena then it is no longer science but "dogma"

With the above statement you show clearly your lack of understanding relating to science. They do not use "past discoveries" to explain new phenomena, they use established and proven principles which they then apply to the question at hand.

the same dogma that leads to entrenched religion.

This statement is so silly and false it doesn't even warrant an answer, once again your abysmal lack of knowledge is trumpeting itself loud and clear.

Are we the dreamer, or the dreamed?

A meaningless question, sounds nice but contains zero substance.

In dreams we can change our environment, challenge our fears and enjoy lustful and sensual pleasures without hurting anyone including ourselves, and completely in the safety of our slumber.

Sure we can, because its not real. In effect nothing happens at all, our environment does not change, we enjoy no relations with others, and once awakened no fears are dispelled. This is because its not real, its just a dream.

If we take the position that reality means that we are the dreamer than what we decide, the decisions we make and the thoughts we have will change our interactions with reality.

Key to this is the word "if". Sure it can change your interactions with reality but it certainly can not change reality. We can dream that the earth is flat but it will not become flat because we dream it.

That is how dreamer reality works. We can control, project and harmonize with others, the life we wish to live.

One can try to live the life they wish to live, with or without dreams. The obstacles to living the life we wish to live are primarily other people and circumstances. No amount of dreaming will influence other people or change external circumstances.

I would love to go on dissecting your silly post but I'm quite busy. However, I should address this following statement as it says so much about you.

I can understand why AngusThermopyle might be angry at having his thinking challenged.

I should first make it clear that I'm not angry, amused yes, angry no. This is just one more example of you projecting what you wish upon myself, as such it is false and empty. If you presented anything other than meaningless drivel you might be able to challenge my thinking, however what you do present is merely cause for laughter, lots and lots of laughter.. Enjoy your dreams...errr...reality...no...dreams, whatever, just enjoy your delusional state.

Edited August 13, 2008 by AngusThermopyle