Tale of Two Commemorations - Jewish & Muslim

[guyser]

Would now be a good time to mention Woodstock '99?

Poor judgement by whom?

..you forgot The Who in Cinncinnati.

[Black Dog]

Some of these bizarre rituals actually were based on common sense health practices that made sense in their time.

But they make no freaking sense now: that's the point.

[jbg]

..you forgot The Who in Cinncinnati.

The difference is that festival seating, i.e. mad scramble at music concerts became very rare after that debacle. No similar steps were taken to eliminate the carnage at Hajj.

Also, how many at the Who concert slashed their own foreheads?

[AngusThermopyle]

if you come from a hot climate you soon stroke out if you don't wear a hat all the time.

What on earth does the climate and a hat have to do with premature ejaculation?

Edited September 5, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[Black Dog]

The difference is that festival seating, i.e. mad scramble at music concerts became very rare after that debacle. No similar steps were taken to eliminate the carnage at Hajj.

Steps taken by who? According to you, 4 million people are just supposed to turn up and manage themselves without any help from organizers because hey: a few hundred Jews gathered in temples for organized religious services in modern, code-approved buildings can do it.

FWIW, I do think more should be done to prevent those kinds of tragedies, but let's not lose touch of the fact that you have stated that these stampedes have nothing to do with organization and everything to do with what you say is the inherent savagery of Muslims.

Also, how many at the Who concert slashed their own foreheads?

Ever been to a real concert (garbag l ike Great Big Sea doesn't count)? Crowd-surfing, head-banging, "moshing": it's all very primal and strange. I don't suggest you go, lest it shock your evidently delicate sensibilities.

[guyser]

The difference is that festival seating, i.e. mad scramble at music concerts became very rare after that debacle. No similar steps were taken to eliminate the carnage at Hajj.

So, in effect you agree that the carnage at Hajj is caused by lousy crowd control.

Also, how many at the Who concert slashed their own foreheads?

Dont know. Probably a few if the acid was lousy.

If the Who=religion, and the Who Religion" advocated the forehead stuff, then I suspect there would be more than a few.

All religions have bizarre practices. How is any one bizarre practice worse than another, excluding death to others?

Bizarre...?

Slicing of the head as mentioned

Refusal of blood transfusions- Jehovah Witnesses

Scientology E machines

Exorcism-Catholics

Kaparot-Jewish

You should get the point.

[cybercoma]

Cutting one's foreskin may seem confusing to thou, but if you had an uncut penis and lived in a climate with sand, it would make a lot of sense.

I'm just saying, cutting skin off a person's penis can be viewed as being just as strange as self-flagellation (which as I noted was and is performed by some Catholics).

As you showed in the rest of your post, we can sit here and site all kinds of reasons for and against ritualistic oddities. Like you alluded to in your original post, all cultures do strange things of some sort or another, so perhaps we shouldn't throw rocks in glass houses.

[AngusThermopyle]

Ever been to a real concert

Yep, been to lots and never seen head slashing or such. As for moshing you know full well that isn't indicative as most concerts worth seeing don't involve that nonesense.

[cybercoma]

Yep, been to lots and never seen head slashing or such. As for moshing you know full well that isn't indicative as most concerts worth seeing don't involve that nonesense.

I like to mosh at jazz festivals just to confuse people.

[DogOnPorch]

Yep, been to lots and never seen head slashing or such. As for moshing you know full well that isn't indicative as most concerts worth seeing don't involve that nonesense.

Moshing when it first started seemed confined to a certain type of concert. Punk in particular. But not Death Metal. They were more 'head nodders'. Punk shows you'd need a row of guards in front of the speakers. Metal heads...beer patrol...lol.

Christian punkers really loved to mosh.

-------------------------------------------

Raining blood

From a lacerated sky

Bleeding its horror

Creating my structure

---Slayer

[jbg]

Steps taken by who? According to you, 4 million people are just supposed to turn up and manage themselves without any help from organizers because hey: a few hundred Jews gathered in temples for organized religious services in modern, code-approved buildings can do it.

What about over 1 million at the Pope's funeral? Were "organizers" needed to prevent savagery?

Ever been to a real concert (garbag l ike Great Big Sea doesn't count)? Crowd-surfing, head-banging, "moshing": it's all very primal and strange. I don't suggest you go, lest it shock your evidently delicate sensibilities.

Are Blue Rodeo and Gordon Lightfoot "garbage" also? I don't recall much violence at those concerts.

[jbg]

Moshing when it first started seemed confined to a certain type of concert. Punk in particular. But not Death Metal. They were more 'head nodders'. Punk shows you'd need a row of guards in front of the speakers. Metal heads...beer patrol...lol.

Christian punkers really loved to mosh.

Sounds like very constructive activity. Almost as good as the Hajj.

[DogOnPorch]

Sounds like very constructive activity. Almost as good as the Hajj.

The worst injury I saw in a mosh-pit was one guy with a large hoop nose ring getting it ripped out. It was large enough a hoop to allow a finger to be inserted...the rest just followed. Blood everywhere...but no death by stampede.

-----------------------------------------

I knew a lady who came from Duluth

Bitten by a dog with a rabid tooth

She went to her grave just a little too soon

flew away howling at the yellow moon

---Nirvana

[guyser]

What about over 1 million at the Pope's funeral? Were "organizers" needed to prevent savagery?

You have already said it is because of a lack of crowd control so why the continuous questions?

To answer though, yes, they would have crowd control at the popes funeral to prevent death from occuring.

[Black Dog]

What about over 1 million at the Pope's funeral? Were "organizers" needed to prevent savagery?

Yes.

Hours before Pope John Paul II's funeral and burial in early April in the grottoes beneath St. Peter's Basilica, Vatican City had already become a risk manager's version of Dante's Inferno.

Pilgrims poured into Vatican City, rapidly swelling it and surrounding Rome by millions. With four kings, five queens and at least 70 presidents and prime ministers paying their last respects, the concentration of political power that had descended onto Vatican City's 109 acres was unprecedented.

The U.S. delegation alone consisted of President George W. Bush, first lady Laura Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, former President George H.W. Bush and former President Bill Clinton.

Makeshift tents and medical-emergency units rose quickly throughout Rome. And hovering ominously over the proceedings was the dreaded threat of terrorist attacks. In response, antiaircraft rocket launchers were in place throughout Rome, a navy warship armed with torpedoes patrolled the coastline near the capital and more than 6,000 extra police, including snipers, bomb-disposal experts and motorcycle escorts were deployed to protect the crowds and dignitaries.

Heightening fears of attack were credible reports that the brother of a gunman convicted of shooting and seriously wounding the pope in 1981 planned to journey from his native Turkey to be in Rome for the funeral ceremonies.

As the whole world watched with growing amazement and awe, what had begun as a solemn, manageable vigil in the Holy See during the pope's waning days blossomed into one of the largest and most mind-boggling events in the history of crowd control.

[jbg]

I read the BlackDog and Guyser reply, the two above mine. The response seemed to have been more in the nature of security, to protect visiting dignitaries, than crowd control.

That being said I am sure there were some crowd control steps taken. I am certain that the crowd was far more self-regulated than during the Hajj, and that there were few or no stampedes or internal crowd violence.

[guyser]

... and that there were few or no stampedes or internal crowd violence.

Yes, true, and why?...because of crowd control.

[Black Dog]

I read the BlackDog and Guyser reply, the two above mine. The response seemed to have been more in the nature of security, to protect visiting dignitaries, than crowd control.

You're right jbg: tens of thousands of police, medical personnel, the impromptu housing, the restrictions on crowd movement etc were all steps taken to protect dignitaries. The one million pilgrims had to get by on their own.

That being said I am sure there were some crowd control steps taken. I am certain that the crowd was far more self-regulated than during the Hajj, and that there were few or no stampedes or internal crowd violence.

Do you honestly believe that one million people can descend on a city en masse and manage themselves? By the same token, do you honestly think that four million people with considerably fewer crowd control measures in place won't have a higher risk of incidents? Do you have any actual evidence that the Haji crowd is less self-regulating? Are you a complete idiot or just acting like one?

[moderateamericain]

JBG your not making a great argument here, besides if a bunch of Arab's want to trample eachother to death, well I guess its just less potential terrorist isnt it?

[BC_chick]

The show Taboo on National Geographic Channel was airing a segment on Sunday night where certain Christian communities still practice religious self-flagellation. They showed people lashing their backs to the point there was no skin left anywhere, people nailing themselves to crosses, all kinds of really gruesome practices, supposedly, to relive Christ's last moments. It was so graphic I ended up changing the channel.

While it is true that there are probably way less Christians doing this sort of thing today than Muslims, I wouldn't go as far as saying Muslims are the only ones who find some sort of connection with the Almighty by carving up pieces up His creation(s).

[jbg]

Do you honestly believe that one million people can descend on a city en masse and manage themselves? By the same token, do you honestly think that four million people with considerably fewer crowd control measures in place won't have a higher risk of incidents? Do you have any actual evidence that the Haji crowd is less self-regulating? Are you a complete idiot or just acting like one?

I guess you'd attribute the attack on the Islamabad Marriot to poor drivers' ed?

[jbg]

While it is true that there are probably way less Christians doing this sort of thing today than Muslims, I wouldn't go as far as saying Muslims are the only ones who find some sort of connection with the Almighty by carving up pieces up His creation(s).

I'm sure that the Jewish religion, particularly in the Chabad Lubavich community and groups like it have their share of nutbars as well. To quote a line I've heard "If it's Christians killing Muslims it's a crusade, if it's Jews killing Muslims it's a massacre. If its Muslims killing Muslims it's Weather Channel". (link).

[Oleg Bach]

I guess you'd attribute the attack on the Islamabad Marriot to poor drivers' ed?

Underneath my new apartment in the core of Riverside - lower east side of Toronto - is a bakery...run by a very nice Muslim family...Out in the alley at the end of the day the shop owners gather for a smoke and a talk...as this six foot two Muslim baker leaves his buisness for the day - he scouls with contempt at all of us - believing that we are all infidels and godless inferiours...He holds what he imagines as debauched white Canadian secularism - it utter contempt - Not once has he ever bothered to find out if any of us are of principle or if we believe in goodness God and real civlity....frankly he is so prejudice that he will never converse with the white trash out back - If there is one Muslim that dispises us there must be thousands...so why did we bring them here? I am sure there are moderates - but I can tell if this big imposing jerk had his way he would behead us all!

[g_bambino]

I am sure there are moderates - but I can tell if this big imposing jerk had his way he would behead us all!

Er, how, again, can you tell that?

[Black Dog]

I guess you'd attribute the attack on the Islamabad Marriot to poor drivers' ed?

I don't even know where to begin with this lunacy. I hope you are better at arguing in court than you are here, because, brother, this is garbage.

The sad thing is, I know in six months or a year, you'll dig this whole bullshit line of reasoning and we'll be off to the racists er...races again.