Open warfare in South Ossetia

[PoliticalCitizen]

I'd like to summarize my take on this complex situation, including parts played by parties so far, and based on the information I've been able to find. Most sources have been already referenced in this thread, only new ones will be linked. Factual and/or argumented corrections and/or comments are welcome.

#1 The conflict is a typical post empire collaps aftershock. Historical roots go well beyond recent times.

#2 Escalation of the conlift to a large scale military action by Georgia was not justifiable. Preferable approach to resolving ethnic conflicts would be negotiation based on free democratic expression of will by people (where people represent a "distinct" society), aka Canada model; if that were inacceptable to one of the parties at the time, the situation should have remained "frozen" until such time as when all parties are prepared to negotiate a peaceful resolution. This position is confirmed by NATO's role in the Kosovo conflict (when Serbia's strong response to a real terrorist insurgency has been rejected and suppressed by force).

#3 Russia's initial response to the escalation of the conflict has been peaceful and legitimate (request for UN resolution demanding end of attacks and withdrawal of Georgia's troops from the peacekeeping zone).

#4 This request has not met with understanding from some Western partners, effectively blocking international security framework from playing any role in deescalation of the conflict. This was the first window of opportunity for the West to demonstrate a genuine committment to the same principles of peace it likes everybody else to follow.

#4 In the absence of international response, Russia's military intervention in the peacekeeping zone was justified. If civilians of any Western country fell under a direct military attack, appropriate actions to protect population and restore its security would be fully justified and executed. Precedents: UK in Folkland/Malvinas, France in Chad.

#5 Specifically, Russian military actions to remove Georgia's forces from the peacekeeping zone were justified. In the situation of intense fighting that continued for two days (Aug 8th to 10th), removing the offending forces may have been the only effective way to minimize civilian casualties in the conflict and restore minimum security. Minimal civilian casualties (outside of the initial offense by Georgia on the night of Aug. 7th) appear to confirm validity of that strategy.

#6 The period of heavy fighting in the peacekeeping zone was the second window of opportunity for the West to take a principled strong position on the conflict and demand withdrawal of all forces from the zone of peacekeeping and restoration of the status quo.

#7 After provisional ceasefire has been reached: Russia's actions to disarm, dismantle and remove offensive military capabilities of Georgia in the areas of immediate vicinity of the zone of conflict were justified by the need to guarantee minimum security for the population in the zone of conflict.

#8 Russia's actions outside of the immediate vicinity of the zone of conflict are highly questionnable; the only legitimate intervention would have been to remove a real and present threat of attack against any of the peacekeeping zones, by disarming, dismantling, and removing offensive capability of the offending forces. Specifically, advances into Georgia proper, outside of immediate vicinity to the area of conflict, or peacekeeping zones, were not justifiable.

Very good summary, Myata.

It looks like you've actually taken time to study the subject, unlike many other users posting in this thread.

[PoliticalCitizen]

The west are pale eyed wolf men called anglos - cruel and stiff upper lipped ready to subjugate and get rich doing it...that's the west - now the east are parroting.

Now watch how the immigration makes the "pale eyed wolf men" more brown with squinted eyes

Here in Toronto whites already are a visible minority...

[Ontario Loyalist]

Now watch how the immigration makes the "pale eyed wolf men" more brown with squinted eyes

Here in Toronto whites already are a visible minority...

I haven't been to Toronto in years. I can only imagine what it's like. Downtown here has become fairly ethnic. I'm starting to find myself in situations where I'm one of the only, if not the only white person around and nobody seems to be speaking English. Very strange when you've lived somewhere for 30 years and start to feel like an outsider.

[moderateamericain]

I'd like to summarize my take on this complex situation, including parts played by parties so far, and based on the information I've been able to find. Most sources have been already referenced in this thread, only new ones will be linked. Factual and/or argumented corrections and/or comments are welcome.

#1 The conflict is a typical post empire collaps aftershock. Historical roots go well beyond recent times.

#2 Escalation of the conlift to a large scale military action by Georgia was not justifiable. Preferable approach to resolving ethnic conflicts would be negotiation based on free democratic expression of will by people (where people represent a "distinct" society), aka Canada model; if that were inacceptable to one of the parties at the time, the situation should have remained "frozen" until such time as when all parties are prepared to negotiate a peaceful resolution. This position is confirmed by NATO's role in the Kosovo conflict (when Serbia's strong response to a real terrorist insurgency has been rejected and suppressed by force).

#3 Russia's initial response to the escalation of the conflict has been peaceful and legitimate (request for UN resolution demanding end of attacks and withdrawal of Georgia's troops from the peacekeeping zone).

#4 This request has not met with understanding from some Western partners, effectively blocking international security framework from playing any role in deescalation of the conflict. This was the first window of opportunity for the West to demonstrate a genuine committment to the same principles of peace it likes everybody else to follow.

#4 In the absence of international response, Russia's military intervention in the peacekeeping zone was justified. If civilians of any Western country fell under a direct military attack, appropriate actions to protect population and restore its security would be fully justified and executed. Precedents: UK in Folkland/Malvinas, France in Chad.

#5 Specifically, Russian military actions to remove Georgia's forces from the peacekeeping zone were justified. In the situation of intense fighting that continued for two days (Aug 8th to 10th), removing the offending forces may have been the only effective way to minimize civilian casualties in the conflict and restore minimum security. Minimal civilian casualties (outside of the initial offense by Georgia on the night of Aug. 7th) appear to confirm validity of that strategy.

#6 The period of heavy fighting in the peacekeeping zone was the second window of opportunity for the West to take a principled strong position on the conflict and demand withdrawal of all forces from the zone of peacekeeping and restoration of the status quo.

#7 After provisional ceasefire has been reached: Russia's actions to disarm, dismantle and remove offensive military capabilities of Georgia in the areas of immediate vicinity of the zone of conflict were justified by the need to guarantee minimum security for the population in the zone of conflict.

#8 Russia's actions outside of the immediate vicinity of the zone of conflict are highly questionnable; the only legitimate intervention would have been to remove a real and present threat of attack against any of the peacekeeping zones, by disarming, dismantling, and removing offensive capability of the offending forces. Specifically, advances into Georgia proper, outside of immediate vicinity to the area of conflict, or peacekeeping zones, were not justifiable.

And now, some general observations:

- The West once againg has shown its inherent inablity to abide by its own proclaimed norms and standards; it was not able to play strong impartial role in deescalating the conflict, and on the contrary, took a strong stance on one side of the conflict.

- As a result, credibility of the West as an international agent of peace in general, and in this conflict in particular, has been diminished (with Canada being no exception either). Again, the West has shown pack behaviour and any of its future claims to objectivity, peace and justice would be met with increasing skepticism.

- Russia has received a strong momentum to seek and strengthen the allegiances with the authoritarian, less democratic regimes of Asia. Democratic opposition in Russia is probably one of the biggest losers of the incident.

- International cooperation, and specifically, security framework has received a strong setback. UNSC will see more of the old style block tradeoff politics, and its efficiency will be diminished even further (if that is still possible).

- The situation provides opportunities for other international players, untaineted by unilateral actions, to step forward and start playing the role of trusted mediator of peace and security, which neither Western block, nor emerging China-Asia-Russia organisation will be able to play for quite some time.

[edited for style - m.]

Well since we started this discussion Myata. Im going to go ahead and do something that might shock you and agree with you on almost all points. Except that I believe that once Russia moved past Gori they lost the Moral Imperative, If thats ultra important to warfare anyhow, I think its fair to say your analysis has been proven correct up to this point. Now going forward lets see how the Russians handle it going forward. If they loot everything from Gori to Poti then we will be back in here arguing about this all over again. But until then, nice work.

[myata]

A good discussion is enjoyable, not in the least as an incentive to find out more about the issue under question. Thanks to this thread I found for myself much more than I would probably have been inclined to otherwise.

I agree that at this time there's a lot at stake for Russia. It's coming back as an active player in the international politics is a welcome sign. The challenge now is to learn to play by the rules, and understand the meaning of restraint (not the abstract Western notion of "restraint" which applies to everybody else, but a very practical understanding of a line where moral loss outweighs any practical gain). In particular I sincerely and genuinly wish them to get out of Georgia proper asap, and if possible, even before then. They've scored all the points that could be gotten there, and from here on, there's nothing more to be found or gained, only lost.

[PoliticalCitizen]

From CNN (highlight is mine):

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/0...ions/index.html

"Meanwhile, a human rights group said Georgia had admitted dropping cluster bombs in its military offensive to assert control over South Ossetia, The Associated Press reported.

Human Rights Watch said it had received an official letter from Georgia's Defense Ministry that acknowledged use of the M85 cluster munition near the Roki tunnel that connects South Ossetia with Russia."

Also - no sanctions for Russia (yet, anyway).

[myata]

Good find; it's by these little specific details we will eventually know the right from wrong; and who took which side, and what side it was. No matter that, now, some may think it's just enough to bump up the volume in the media, and things will be set the right way - the way they supposed to be.

Whatever way the situation plays up from now, one great achievement of Russia cant't be denied, and by that I mean finally calling that persistent and all encompassing democratic bs adage, played by the West whenever there's a need to justify some of its own murkier acts.

Whatever way it's going to move, starting to call things their right, real names couldn't be wrong.

[Rue]

Very good summary, Myata.

It looks like you've actually taken time to study the subject, unlike many other users posting in this thread.

You would have had more credibility if you had stated instead of the above self-righteous nonsense the following;

" I agree with you."

Your arrogance at presuming others who disagree with your opinioons have not taken the time to study the subject is bull. Please do not bother to assure me you have a Ph.d in Russian history either. I still find your opinion and Myata's simplistic, black and white, selective, and clearly partisan.

I have yet to see Myata present a conflict with neutral analysis where he does not take sides and present one side as good and the other as evil. If you love that sort of thing good for you and you should subscribe to WWE wrestling. Same plots.

[myata]

I have yet to see Myata present a conflict with neutral analysis where he does not take sides and present one side as good and the other as evil. If you love that sort of thing good for you and you should subscribe to WWE wrestling. Same plots.

No, one shouldn't need a PhD, but basic reading comprehesion is a prerequisite of a meaningful discussion.

Factual and/or argumented corrections and/or comments are welcome.

[Analystic]

It becomes more and more understandable for anybody in the world now that a terrible “tea-party†in South Ossetia, as well as, all those events, which happened then, suits down, first of all, to the ground of Iran. Certainly at that moment all of us have forgotten about US military preparations of war against Iran for a while. But Iranian leaders tried to use this breathing period very well. See for yourself!

When Saakashvili was locked in South Ossetia, the news came that Iran launched its satellite’s mockout. It shows everybody Iran’s satellite is not ready yet. But then why hurry?

In this case I cannot but agree with those military experts who consider that Iran has simply shown the world: it has such means of satellite’s delivery, which can easily be used as ballistic missiles. And if Saakashvili had been sitting quietly, at heels of this Iranian launch, Americans would surely launch numerous “localized†blows on military facilities in Iran. But US military have ignored everything. Why?

The answer is simple. Due to data of military experts Washington has not specially prepared bases for such attacks, because they should be located on the territory of 500-600 km from Iranian military targets. US military have kept in view to prepare these bases on the territory of friendly Georgia by the end of September - early October, in other words, by that time when according to their estimates Iran would be ready to launch its satellite.

Thus, Saakashvili has upset apple-cards of his overseas friends. And it brings up the question: whom has Saakashvili done good in reality, realizing his long-standing plans towards South Ossetia?..

[PoliticalCitizen]

You would have had more credibility if you had stated instead of the above self-righteous nonsense the following;

" I agree with you."

Your arrogance at presuming others who disagree with your opinioons have not taken the time to study the subject is bull. Please do not bother to assure me you have a Ph.d in Russian history either. I still find your opinion and Myata's simplistic, black and white, selective, and clearly partisan.

I have yet to see Myata present a conflict with neutral analysis where he does not take sides and present one side as good and the other as evil. If you love that sort of thing good for you and you should subscribe to WWE wrestling. Same plots.

Sorry, Rue, I didn't mean to insult you or anybody.

My comment was aimed at a couple of hotshots who only posted in this thread to express their hate (fear?) towards the Russians.

Please don't take my choice of words as an offence.

Edited September 4, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[Kaisa]

Note, at the top of the page it says, Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.

Since you seem more familiar with this conflict that I, can you show me an example of how the Russians provoked ethnic divisions between Ossetians and Georgians before the 91-92 war?

Sorry, I had some problems and could not find time to answer you.

I know that I can edit the article but this is not the point. If the article is full of BS how come you use it to prove something?

How Russians provoked the war? There are many different ways to do that. First of all propaganda - both visible and hidden (word of mouth). You (Russians) keep saying that Gamsakhurdia's motto was "Georgia for Georgians". He made many mistakes but he has never explicitly said that. However if someone keeps telling you that Stephen Harper says: fu**ing Russians get the fu** out of Canada believe me you will not be very happy with him.

There was a highly respected man - Merab Kostava, a clear leader who was not as emotional as Gamsakhurdia, who would not have made so many mistakes and had far more chances to become a president. However he was killed in a suspicious car accident after which people followed Gamsakhurdia - one of few well known dissidents and a son of a Georgian beloved writer. However he was ousted in less than six months after he had already done much damage by the civil war orchestrated from Russia to bring Eduard Shevardnadze, a pro-russian president to power. In 90th KGB agents were everywhere - in Georgiana and in "South Ossetian" governments, do you think it was difficult for Russia to make them do whatever they wanted? + How do you think Ossetians and Abkhazs got weapons?

[Kaisa]

As I already said, Chechnya got it but f*cked it up by starting military operations in Dagestan.

Of course, why did I even ask Of course Russia never kills innocent people, never occupies.

Why should I be looking for a proof? Most sources I read mention that either he said it or it was used in his campaign. Either way, the direction is obvious.

What does Rogozing have to do with anything? Why did you have to bring him in? He doesn't decide anything (yet, anyway).

The sources you read are Russian. I never voted for Gamsakhurdia and I know he was not a great politician but neither he nor Georgians had this stupid motto. I was an adult when these things were happening and I know perfectly well what was going on. Ragozin is an ambassador of Russia to NATO dont you think he cant make videos like that?

What kind of BS is that video? Did Saakashvili's lakeys make it themselves or did the American friends help you? I've heard Georgian on top of English on top of Russian... Is that what your president uses to teach the new generation of Georgians about their neighbors? No wonder you hate Russians... Jeez...

Calm down, dont panic This is a movie made in Latvia however the video is made by Ragozin, it is real and you know that Did Georgian on top of English and Russian distract your attention from the fact that Russian Ambassador to NATO openly calls people from Caucasus region trash?

I dont hate Russians, dont you mistake me for your kind. If I hated Russians it would mean that I hate those Russians who protest against this war and believe me they are quite a few. I dont even hate brainwashed Russian who cheers to killing of Georgians, I know one day they will be sorry. I do hate those Russians who brainwash, who have enough information and logic to understand everything but choose to be dumb and immoral and justify unjustifiable.

Georgians have never been hostile towards non-Georgian friends... until the Soviet Union fell apart. All of a sudden ethnic groups living brotherly side-by-side became rabid dogs lunging for each other's throats... all to the amusement of uncle Sam (whose ass Georgian and Ukrainian governments tried to kiss as deep as anatomically possible).

I appreciate the little story from your country's folklore and I honestly believe that your people are still the same as in that story - they just have been temporarily blinded by hatred, thanks to your micro-Hitler Saakashvili. I have to compliment him on his eloquence and gift to reach for the hearts of the masses - but he poisoned your people's minds, misled and made them commit a crime agains humanity.

Georgia was never hated by Russia, just treated as the other little sister republics.

Oh yes, statues are nice... There's lots of them everywhere... But you're not in Georgia now, are you, Kaisa?

You're wondering how come so many Ossetians have Russian names? Maybe that's because Ossetia did not do an ethnic cleansing towards Russians. As you may have noticed, Russia did not expel Basilashvili or many other prominent Russian citizens of Georgian origin.

Hell, the president of Moldova (home of the only elected Communist government in the world) is Voronin. Definitely not a Romanian name. You know why? We, Moldovans, do not hate Russians. Moldova is actually considering re-introducing Russian as a second state language.

Russia was not very happy when the Soviet Union fell apart and tried its best to destabilize the region. Some stupid Russian on this forum wrote that Georgia is Russia. I dont even want to argue with this mental case. Russia does not understand sister republics, Russia was a "big brother" in Soviet Union. We were never equal.

You know what Russia should have done? Russia should have returned Abkhazia and Samachablo to Georgia and Georgians would have been their closest friends and allies. They do not understand that it is better to have an independent friend than occupied enemy as a neighbor. Why is Saakashvili so hated in Russia? Because he was brave enough to stand against your aggression, because he said that you were rather warkeepers than peacekeepers and tried to break free.

You did not expel Basilashvili? He does not even speak Georgian and I know he says he is Russian. However in 2004 principles of Russian schools were asked to provide a list of students with Georgian last names. Can you deny that?

I am not surprised that Moldova is considering re-introducing Russian as a second state language, not if there are many "Moldovan" like you. By the way, did you know that in 1978 Russia decided to change the status of Georgian language in its "sister republic" Georgia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_Tbilisi_Demonstrations

And while we talk about how well Russians treated Georgia before Soviet Union's collapse check out what they did on April 9, 1989.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_9_tragedy

I dont understand your point. Yes, I am not in Georgia, I am in Canada, so? At least I live in a country that I absolutely adore and think of it as my second homeland. I dont criticize it and it is not Georgia's enemy whether it is cold or hot war. What about you?

Here, you dont like Georigan sources, listen to Russian ones. It is interesting what they say about the "genocide".

http://grani-tv.ru/entries/448/

http://grani-tv.ru/entries/436/

If after everything that happened you still think that it all started because Ossetian genocide and Russia occupied Georgia to protect innocent civilians you are not intelligent enough to argue with. If however you know perfectly well what is going on but distort the facts to justify crimes of Russia...

[Kaisa]

Remember Joe Stalin was a spawn of Georgia. He genocided millions of good slavonics in Russia and the Ukraine - I would say genetically speaking if there are a few hundred of Stalins blood relatives in Georgia - I just hope they were among the dead - revenge takes a while and Georgia diserves what it gets - it does not matter if it is 80 years later -- someone in Georgia created Stalin and the decendants of that mad creator are now facing payback time - so be it.

Hi Sharikov,

Did you know that Stalin was ethnically half Ossetian?

"Stalin was referred to as "The Broad-Chested Ossete". His father, Vissarion Dzhugashvili was an ethnic Ossetian cobbler from Gori, and his mother a Georgian serf. The name component "Dzhuga" is Ossetian (an Iranian language unrelated to Georgian), and is represented in the Ossetian name Dzhugayev."

[myata]

The latest from Dick Chaney:

Dick Chaney in Georgia.

"Americans are acutely conscious of the great trials your country has faced over the last four weeks and we stand in solidarity with the people of Georgia,"

Sounds like an unquestionnable support, and encouragement, of Georgia's actions. "Democratic allegiance" or "dirty hand washes dirty hand"? (Georgia being the third largest contributor of troops to the US led Iraq coalition before the incident).

[PoliticalCitizen]

Of course, why did I even ask Of course Russia never kills innocent people, never occupies.

The sources you read are Russian. I never voted for Gamsakhurdia and I know he was not a great politician but neither he nor Georgians had this stupid motto. I was an adult when these things were happening and I know perfectly well what was going on. Ragozin is an ambassador of Russia to NATO dont you think he cant make videos like that?

Calm down, dont panic This is a movie made in Latvia however the video is made by Ragozin, it is real and you know that Did Georgian on top of English and Russian distract your attention from the fact that Russian Ambassador to NATO openly calls people from Caucasus region trash?

I dont hate Russians, dont you mistake me for your kind. If I hated Russians it would mean that I hate those Russians who protest against this war and believe me they are quite a few. I dont even hate brainwashed Russian who cheers to killing of Georgians, I know one day they will be sorry. I do hate those Russians who brainwash, who have enough information and logic to understand everything but choose to be dumb and immoral and justify unjustifiable.

Of course, our "temperamental" brothers - the Latvians

They were trying to teach Moldovans Rusophobia too - that didn't work - but it looks like they more than succeeded in Georgia.

As soon as Soviet Union fell apart I remember one of their political leader's speach in Moldova. It was in Russian and started like this: "Excuse me for speaking in the language of the occupants..." Don't you just LOVE our little faschist wanna-be friends? I think there's much more love in Germany that was defeated by the Soviets (disclaimer: and Allies).

Here's what Georgian People’s Artist Vakhtang Kikabidze, who has sung in Russian forever and is loved by all former Soviet people said (after refusing a "Friendship" order):

"At first I thought Russian Army will limit itself with the conflict zone, but when they spread almost over the entire Georgia I understood: the Russians have started this barbarian war on purpose. We must somehow finish with this country (Russia). The West must help us with this..."

Well, good luck finishing off Russia

Oh, and guess what - the West is not coming...

You know what Russia should have done? Russia should have returned Abkhazia and Samachablo to Georgia and Georgians would have been their closest friends and allies. They do not understand that it is better to have an independent friend than occupied enemy as a neighbor. Why is Saakashvili so hated in Russia? Because he was brave enough to stand against your aggression, because he said that you were rather warkeepers than peacekeepers and tried to break free.

Naturally. Hand South Ossetia over to Georgia on a silver plate, saying: "Please kill our citizens. They are stupid Ossetians that we don't need anyway. Oh by the way - please take Abkhazia and clean it up as well".

Saakashvili HATED? Oh please... Hitler was hated. "SuckMyShvili" is a goddam joke! His campaign of disinformation and delusions of grandeur ("The fate of free world is decided here!" lol) can only be compared to Iraqi Minister of Information - the all-time star.

Russia was not very happy when the Soviet Union fell apart and tried its best to destabilize the region. Some stupid Russian on this forum wrote that Georgia is Russia. I dont even want to argue with this mental case. Russia does not understand sister republics, Russia was a "big brother" in Soviet Union. We were never equal.

I think you got your polarity reversed... Russia has kept Caucasus stable for hundreds of years and will continue doing so despite USA's efforts to de-stabilize the region.

Nobody's equal. Especially "the rest of the world" as it's referred to in US. America Uber Alles... Lead, follow, or get out of the way... Well, guess what - your American friends found Russia in their way to global domination... and the Russians are not getting out...

Here, you dont like Georigan sources, listen to Russian ones. It is interesting what they say about the "genocide".

Oh boy... Where do you find these obscure sites? In the Pribaltic edition of the Rusophob web directory? Or is it the Polish version?

If after everything that happened you still think that it all started because Ossetian genocide and Russia occupied Georgia to protect innocent civilians you are not intelligent enough to argue with. If however you know perfectly well what is going on but distort the facts to justify crimes of Russia...

Oh, Kaisa, you can't insult me... but trying to do so doesn't serve you well...

[Kaisa]

Russians taught us Rusophobia better than anybody else, dont give credits to Latvians, you fully deserve it.

Are you sure you understand what Kikabidze said? I think you interpret his words based on your Russian mentality - finish a country, kill everyone in a country, etc. What he said was that we had to break free from Russia who occupied us more than 200 hundred years ago.

I would not be so happy if I were you, dont be so shortsighted. Georgia might have lost (I am not so sure) but nothing suggests that Russia won yet. Only very primitive people have euphoria about EU not imposing strict sanctions and the west not starting III world war. Do you really think it is over and you got away with everything? Let me give you this example: I am a grown-up woman, fully capable of beating up a five year old kid. If I was as stupid as Putin-Medvedev are and if I really hated the kid as they hate Georgia I could do terrible things to him. Now let's imagine that after I beat the kid up I barricade myself in a building full of many people, I hold a finger on a button and threaten to blow a bomb if police try to come to get me. Do you really think I would win?

Samachablo and Abkhazia were not yours to hand over, remember? These regions were Georgia's for centuries and majority of population was Georgian until Russians, Abkhazians and Ossetians killed and forced them out. "Our citizens"? Do you believe what you say or do you hope people are so stupid that they will believe you? Everybody knows how these people became Russian citizens, the more you press the point the more people become suspicious about validity of other points.

So you dont like grani.ru. How about ej.ru? or echo.msk.ru? All of them are financed by Baltic countries and Georgia, right?

I am insulting you? Why? Do you really think the war started because Georgians tried to kill every Ossetian and Russia had to occupy Georgia to avoid humanitarian catastrophy? I only call people stupid if they really believe this. Do you?

[PoliticalCitizen]

Russians taught us Rusophobia better than anybody else, dont give credits to Latvians, you fully deserve it.

Nah, I think the Polish and West-Ukrainians beat everybody else at hating and fearing Russia. I bet they could still teach you a few things...

Are you sure you understand what Kikabidze said? I think you interpret his words based on your Russian mentality - finish a country, kill everyone in a country, etc. What he said was that we had to break free from Russia who occupied us more than 200 hundred years ago.

Georgia chose to join Russian Empire because they were afraid that the Ottoman Empire would be even worse.

Now Georgia is trying to join the American Empire and attempts to drag other nations with it...

I would not be so happy if I were you, dont be so shortsighted. Georgia might have lost (I am not so sure) but nothing suggests that Russia won yet. Only very primitive people have euphoria about EU not imposing strict sanctions and the west not starting III world war. Do you really think it is over and you got away with everything? Let me give you this example: I am a grown-up woman, fully capable of beating up a five year old kid. If I was as stupid as Putin-Medvedev are and if I really hated the kid as they hate Georgia I could do terrible things to him. Now let's imagine that after I beat the kid up I barricade myself in a building full of many people, I hold a finger on a button and threaten to blow a bomb if police try to come to get me. Do you really think I would win?

Don't forget that your "5-year-old" kid tried to strangle a "3-months-old" infant, so damn sure he deserves a beating, and you should be grateful he got off easy (no broken bones). But you would probably not leave the baby in the same house with the stupid 5-year old again.

Oh, and US with its imperialistic strategies is VERY far from being a "World Police". As a matter of fact, after this conflict they have gone "morally bankrupt" - a fact that many European leaders began to realize.

Samachablo and Abkhazia were not yours to hand over, remember? These regions were Georgia's for centuries and majority of population was Georgian until Russians, Abkhazians and Ossetians killed and forced them out. "Our citizens"? Do you believe what you say or do you hope people are so stupid that they will believe you? Everybody knows how these people became Russian citizens, the more you press the point the more people become suspicious about validity of other points.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not mine or yours or anybody else's. They are independent countries now, wheter you and the NATO war-mongering masterminds like it or not

So you dont like grani.ru. How about ej.ru? or echo.msk.ru? All of them are financed by Baltic countries and Georgia, right?

Have you heard of www.ingushetia.ru? Do you know what happened to it?

I am insulting you? Why? Do you really think the war started because Georgians tried to kill every Ossetian and Russia had to occupy Georgia to avoid humanitarian catastrophy? I only call people stupid if they really believe this. Do you?

I do not use personal attacks or insults as a part of my arguments. If you want to be respected you should avoid that as well.

[PoliticalCitizen]

http://www.president.gov.ge/?l=E&m=0&a...=70&id=1843

"Today we are laying foundation for the monument which will become the symbol of the development of Georgia and Adjara. It will be a symbol demonstrating that no one will ever manage to separate Adjara from the rest of Georgia neither in this century nor in the centuries to come.

Today we are laying foundation for the monument which will symbolize the road and the beacon which will return all of us to Abkhazia, which will unite us and which will continue the similar processes in Sokhumi.

This monument will be a symbol of Adjara in a free, united and happy Georgia."

Well, if Georgians continue propagating the same "brotherly love" that they have shown to Ossetians and Abkhazians then Adjarians will consider getting Russian passports too

And then Saakashvili and NATO can kiss Batumi good-bye

[Kaisa]

Georgia did not join Russian empire, Georgia sought protection from Russian Empire. Do you see the difference?

Sure, US is not a world police but Russia is, right? "3 month old" with Russia's help killed and tortured many Georgians to take away something did not belong to them, or rarther did not only belong to them, dont forget. No matter how much you try to twist the facts they are the following: Samachablo and Abkhazia were part of Georgia for centuries, Russians and immigrants in those regions did terrible things to Georgian majority to gain defacto control, Georgia tried to solve this conflict peacefully, Russia did not accept any offer and kept bombing Georgian villages to provoke this war. When Georgians fell into trap and attacked rebels and criminals Russia occupied Georgia and declared those two regions independent, i.e. directly annexed two regions of neighbour souveren country. It's quite simple. As for moral bunkruptcy, dont be in a rush, you might want to eat your words soon. US is not a country that is isolated now, but Russia is. Almost nobody supported you morally, not even your allies, not even countries that are afraid of you.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are independent countries only in the eyes of Russia and Nicaragua, dont fool yourself.

Sure I heard what happened to ingushetia.ru and Magomed Yevloyev. I dont understand why you advertise the fact that Russian police killed an opposition leader though.

Ok, I agree I should not have used the word "stupid", change it to "not very intelligent", ok?

[Kaisa]

http://www.president.gov.ge/?l=E&m=0&a...=70&id=1843

"Today we are laying foundation for the monument which will become the symbol of the development of Georgia and Adjara. It will be a symbol demonstrating that no one will ever manage to separate Adjara from the rest of Georgia neither in this century nor in the centuries to come.

Today we are laying foundation for the monument which will symbolize the road and the beacon which will return all of us to Abkhazia, which will unite us and which will continue the similar processes in Sokhumi.

This monument will be a symbol of Adjara in a free, united and happy Georgia."

Well, if Georgians continue propagating the same "brotherly love" that they have shown to Ossetians and Abkhazians then Adjarians will consider getting Russian passports too

And then Saakashvili and NATO can kiss Batumi good-bye

You have no idea what you are talking about

Russians tried to stir another conflict in Adjara for ages but do you know why it is not working? You might not know that Ossetians and Abkhazians are not ethnic Georgians but Adjarians are, just like Megrelians, Kakhetians, Imeretians, Gurians and etc.. I, for example, am Rachvelian but I am Georgian first. Megrelians and Svans have their own language that other Georgians don’t speak, some Adjarians are Muslims while majority of Georgians are orthodox Christians and this is where the major differences end. You can always find traitors and knowing Russian methods I am not saying you cannot find Adjarians that are for Russia. However I know this is not what you want to hear but I personally think that Russia wastes time in Adjara.

If you are really interested I could tell you more about the history of Georgia and its regions.

[PoliticalCitizen]

You have no idea what you are talking about

Russians tried to stir another conflict in Adjara for ages but do you know why it is not working? You might not know that Ossetians and Abkhazians are not ethnic Georgians but Adjarians are, just like Megrelians, Kakhetians, Imeretians, Gurians and etc.. I, for example, am Rachvelian but I am Georgian first. Megrelians and Svans have their own language that other Georgians don’t speak, some Adjarians are Muslims while majority of Georgians are orthodox Christians and this is where the major differences end. You can always find traitors and knowing Russian methods I am not saying you cannot find Adjarians that are for Russia. However I know this is not what you want to hear but I personally think that Russia wastes time in Adjara.

If you are really interested I could tell you more about the history of Georgia and its regions.

Thank you for an intelligent and informative reply to my provocative post (I was joking BTW).

Can you tell me how Georgians call themselves? (Not Gruzins, right?)

[Kaisa]

Thank you for an intelligent and informative reply to my provocative post (I was joking BTW).

Can you tell me how Georgians call themselves? (Not Gruzins, right?)

If you were joking this would mean that you dont agree with Russian propaganda for the first time.

We call ourselves Qartveli, or Qartvelebi in plural. Georgia is called Saqartvelo in Georgian.

[PoliticalCitizen]

If you were joking this would mean that you dont agree with Russian propaganda for the first time.

We call ourselves Qartveli, or Qartvelebi in plural. Georgia is called Saqartvelo in Georgian.

Kaisa, I don't agree with Russian or Georgian / Western propaganda. Big powers do their things, little people suffer.

I took the side of Russian propaganda because of how immensely disproportionate the western news coverage was. My fellow Canadians were fed crap with a shovel...

So why is Saqartvelo called Georgia? Don't you want to change that?

[Kaisa]

Kaisa, I don't agree with Russian or Georgian / Western propaganda. Big powers do their things, little people suffer.

I took the side of Russian propaganda because of how immensely disproportionate the western news coverage was. My fellow Canadians were fed crap with a shovel...

So why is Saqartvelo called Georgia? Don't you want to change that?

And of course you were completely objective - talking about the right of self-determination for Ossetiand and Abkhazs and forgetting to mention that these regions were historically georgian where majority of population was georgian until Russia killed and forced most of them to leave. So, if I come to your house with the weapon and make you leave I have right to call it my house, right? Wrong! It will not be my house either legally or morally.

I dont think anybody knows for 100% why it is called Georgia. I personally dont want to change it. Georgia is not the only country which is called differently in different languages. Armenia, for example, is Somkheti in Georgian and Hayastan in Armenian.