Canada's Gas Prices

whowhere · July 29, 2008

Funny that we produce more gold than we consume yet still pay the world price.

Who uses gold? Not me, I doubt you do either. Gold is luxury, oil is a necissity.

Why can't nowhere just say he wants to legislate that the oil sell according to an arbitray prices fixed by decree.

I do, $45 per barrel. It costs the oil company $20 per barrel to extract. That's 100% return, that in itself is a high rate of return. $140 - $200 is downright stealing from Canada.

I don't think the oil companies will in the end even bother to sell any oil in Canada....100% would be sent off shore for the higher price....

Duh, the premise of this thread is to enact the same law as the United States. A law requiring all oil produced in Canada be made available to Canada for use. Nafta is ok with the US having this law, so it has to be ok with Canada having the same law.

Wilber · July 29, 2008

I do, $45 per barrel. It costs the oil company $20 per barrel to extract. That's 100% return, that in itself is a high rate of return. $140 - $200 is downright stealing from Canada.

Many of these exploration companies are Canadian. If you sell something to another Canadian and want market value for it, are you stealing from him if you don't discount it 70%?

Duh, the premise of this thread is to enact the same law as the United States. A law requiring all oil produced in Canada be made available to Canada for use. Nafta is ok with the US having this law, so it has to be ok with Canada having the same law.

The US law just maintains that US produced oil must be available to Americans first so foreign countries can't buy up US reserves and deny Americans access to their own oil. It doesn't mean Americans don't have to pay market price if they use it. They don't pay one price for domestic and and another for imported, nor do they pay a blended price. They pay world price for all of it. In many cases the US chooses to use foreign oil because the logistics of moving say Mexican or Canadian oil to many parts of the US is simpler than shipping oil from Alaska for instance. The same reason Central Canada decided they didn't want to build a pipeline from Alberta.

M.Dancer · July 29, 2008

Duh, the premise of this thread is to enact the same law as the United States. A law requiring all oil produced in Canada be made available to Canada for use. Nafta is ok with the US having this law, so it has to be ok with Canada having the same law.

And Duh.....why would I sell at all then? What totalitarian force would enslave the workers and make them ? Why loose money. Better to layoff the workers, mothball the derricks and wait till a noin comunist gov't comes to power....

Duh indeed....

Post script.....

This $20 a barrel cost you are attempting to float is nonsense btw...Tar sand costs are about $34 just to get the stuff out of the ground...that is..not countoing costs to bring it to market. Now I will say this is irrelevant, the fair price is the price set by the market, not by some totalitarian mouthbreathing thug.

Wilber · July 29, 2008

Who uses gold? Not me, I doubt you do either. Gold is luxury, oil is a necissity.

Gold is used for a lot of things, including the computer you are using.

If gold is a luxury why does its price skyrocket whenever people start losing confidence in the world monetary system?

jbg · July 30, 2008

Hi All,
After Watching Lou Dobbs Tonight it appears the US has a law (OCS lands Act) requiring all oil extracted in the US is to be sold and made available to the US. Hmmmm, considering Canada is an exporter of oil, yet we are paying more for our gas at the pump than the US who happens to imports 80% of their oil is absolutely ridiculous. If all that oil was made available to Canada first. What would that do for the cost of oil for Canada and Canadians? What's good for the US has to be good for Canada. I propose we pass a similar law requiring all oil produced in Canada to be made available to Canada FIRST!!! After we get our oil, only then do we export!!!! It's time we stop subsidizing world demand at our/Canadian's expense. By the way Venezula is also an exporter of oil but yet the country is kind enough to provide oil to its citizens at 40 cents a gallon. Yeah, 40 cents a gallon or 5.00 a gallon?

Spread the word about this US law and tell your politicians you want a similar law.

If your taxes on petrol were the same as the US's the price would be identical. Gasoline trades in a spot market.

As to the US law, I agree that it's a dumb law. If the US had surplus capacity that law would be repealed in a heartbeat. The passage of the law was largely symbolic, the result of the need to pander during the 1974 and/or 1979 gasoline shortages (I forget which).

The US law just maintains that US produced oil must be available to Americans first so foreign countries can't buy up US reserves and deny Americans access to their own oil. It doesn't mean Americans don't have to pay market price if they use it. They don't pay one price for domestic and and another for imported, nor do they pay a blended price. They pay world price for all of it. In many cases the US chooses to use foreign oil because the logistics of moving say Mexican or Canadian oil to many parts of the US is simpler than shipping oil from Alaska for instance. The same reason Central Canada decided they didn't want to build a pipeline from Alberta.

Bang on. You're 100% right on this.

Edited July 30, 2008 by jbg

whowhere · July 31, 2008

US Government is set to target the profits of Oil Companies with increased taxes!

I can remember before free trade there use to be a manufacturing tax of 13%. It's time to do the same on Oil companies. If that's the case $140 * .13 = $18.20. $18.20 *3 million = 54.6 million dollars a day Canada is losing in lost taxes. Over a year 365 *54.6 million = 19 929 000 000. Canada is losing $20 Billion dollars in lost taxes!!! Canada's oil production is expected to increase to 5 million barrels. Taxes on 5 million barrels at $140 oil = $33.215 Billion.

Stop pandering to OIL Companies and Quit allowing the OIL Companies to steal Canada's oil without Canada gettting its due. Canada's National Debt is about $480 Billion. If This money was steered towards eliminating this National debt, Canada would be debt free within 20 years. Interestly, though, Canada never had a national debt before 1970.

Hydraboss · August 2, 2008

You must be from Central Canada. No Albertan would think up a tax scheme and then bitch that it's lost revenue because it isn't implemented.

"If I could tax each .25 glass of lemonade that Suzie makes and sells by $10.00, and there's 1000 glasses sold each year, that's $10,000.00 dollars a year in lost taxes! What the hell is the government doing with Canada's lemonade????"

It's Alberta's oil and we'll do whatever the hell we want with it. Including.........wait for it.........allow it to be sold at world price. None of your damn business.

whowhere · October 26, 2008

You must be from Central Canada. No Albertan would think up a tax scheme and then bitch that it's lost revenue because it isn't implemented.
"If I could tax each .25 glass of lemonade that Suzie makes and sells by $10.00, and there's 1000 glasses sold each year, that's $10,000.00 dollars a year in lost taxes! What the hell is the government doing with Canada's lemonade????"

It's Alberta's oil and we'll do whatever the hell we want with it. Including.........wait for it.........allow it to be sold at world price. None of your damn business.

http://www.oil-price.net/?gclid=CLPykKDJxZYCFRPBDAodrT5pMA

I would like to this opportunity to thank God for doing whatever it is he does to bring the Price of Oil below $65 barrel. However, God bare in mind oil was at $21 dollars a barrel in 2001. So Your work is not done quite yet. It is apparent I can not rely on my fellow man to not be greedy, trustworthy, and unexploitive in their pursuit of profits at any cost.

God recognize Alberta is a parasite to Canada and is Contrary to the economic viability of Canada. Traditionally Ontario and Quebec were the economic drivers of Canada because of their Heavy Industrial base and export sector. These areas have come under seige with the rise in Oil prices and Alberta's greed. These parasites see nothing wrong with driving up Canada's dollar and making exports prohibitively expensive and putting hundreds of thousands of people out of work in Ontario and Quebec in Turn. These parasites see no wrong in driving the Cost of Gas so high that people are unable to afford gas to get to their jobs that has in fact been a factor to the Collapsing Economies around the world.

I know God you are busy but if you could do two more thing to obliterate these parasites back to the stone ages by bestowing the spririt of ingenuity upon those who could move the World away form oil and removing their obstacles to get it to the people would be most appreciated. God I see plausable alternatives in the 100% electric cars like the GM EV1 that was here in 2001 and the Natural Gas fuel Cells. It is unclear what the hold up is in bringing these to the consurmer but if you look into that and help get these to the consumer would also be most appreciated.

Looking forward to $21 dollar a barrell oil

Sincerely,

Whowhere

PS. Could you also look into the Hypocrits. They parade themselves about as conservatives and they have sullen the good word conservative with their debauched idealism and will prostitute their own mother if it meant a free vacation to hawaii. Unfortunately those are the types of politicians and bureaucrats running Canada and the various provinces.

jbg · October 26, 2008

God recognize Alberta is a parasite to Canada and is Contrary to the economic viability of Canada. Traditionally Ontario and Quebec were the economic drivers of Canada because of their Heavy Industrial base and export sector. These areas have come under seige with the rise in Oil prices and Alberta's greed. These parasites see nothing wrong with driving up Canada's dollar and making exports prohibitively expensive and putting hundreds of thousands of people out of work in Ontario and Quebec in Turn. These parasites see no wrong in driving the Cost of Gas so high that people are unable to afford gas to get to their jobs that has in fact been a factor to the Collapsing Economies around the world.

I'm confused. Aren't resources provincial and not Federal? Why should AB bail out ON when ON's unions have priced its labor out of the world market?

blueblood · October 26, 2008

http://www.oil-price.net/?gclid=CLPykKDJxZYCFRPBDAodrT5pMA
I would like to this opportunity to thank God for doing whatever it is he does to bring the Price of Oil below $65 barrel. However, God bare in mind oil was at $21 dollars a barrel in 2001. So Your work is not done quite yet. It is apparent I can not rely on my fellow man to not be greedy, trustworthy, and unexploitive in their pursuit of profits at any cost.

God recognize Alberta is a parasite to Canada and is Contrary to the economic viability of Canada. Traditionally Ontario and Quebec were the economic drivers of Canada because of their Heavy Industrial base and export sector. These areas have come under seige with the rise in Oil prices and Alberta's greed. These parasites see nothing wrong with driving up Canada's dollar and making exports prohibitively expensive and putting hundreds of thousands of people out of work in Ontario and Quebec in Turn. These parasites see no wrong in driving the Cost of Gas so high that people are unable to afford gas to get to their jobs that has in fact been a factor to the Collapsing Economies around the world.

I know God you are busy but if you could do two more thing to obliterate these parasites back to the stone ages by bestowing the spririt of ingenuity upon those who could move the World away form oil and removing their obstacles to get it to the people would be most appreciated. God I see plausable alternatives in the 100% electric cars like the GM EV1 that was here in 2001 and the Natural Gas fuel Cells. It is unclear what the hold up is in bringing these to the consurmer but if you look into that and help get these to the consumer would also be most appreciated.

Looking forward to $21 dollar a barrell oil

Sincerely,

Whowhere

PS. Could you also look into the Hypocrits. They parade themselves about as conservatives and they have sullen the good word conservative with their debauched idealism and will prostitute their own mother if it meant a free vacation to hawaii. Unfortunately those are the types of politicians and bureaucrats running Canada and the various provinces.

That's a way to tank the TSX, nicely done!!! Dropping the price on our exports, nice economic policy. If that's not whoring yourself I don't know what is. Our manufacturing base is a relic and in need of an overhaul, which hopefully is happening now.

whowhere · October 26, 2008

That's a way to tank the TSX, nicely done!!! Dropping the price on our exports, nice economic policy. If that's not whoring yourself I don't know what is. Our manufacturing base is a relic and in need of an overhaul, which hopefully is happening now.

Commodity based companies have no business being on the TSX. Traditionally commodities were traded on other types of exchanges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodities_exchange

The fact is TSX has been hijacked over the years and its performance skewed because of what was happening with Alberta. The only companies that should be traded on the TSX is Manufacturers, Services , Retail, Financials, Real Estate, etc, etc. Basically, companies that convert raw materials (Intellectial or material) into goods or services. These are companies that define a "developed" Country. When a stock exchange has these companies and the index is growing shows a country is on the right track.

Canada's decent into a resource economy can be linked to the Banking Sector. When the Banks were aloud into the Insurance and Broker business I have personally saw my auto insurance go up 100% and the Banks have single handedly ruined the Toronto Stock Excange and the Unlisted markets with there lofty attitudes towards the mobilization of capital. The TSX has become overly weighted resource type companies and other questionable companies.

Canada's Banks have been given to much power to ruin the Country with their greed and influence over self serving politicians and bureacrats. To right Canada, The Banks will have to be kicked out of the Auto Insurance, Broker Industries, and other Insurance industries. Once done Canada will once again heal towards a democratic, rule of law based nation. The TSX should be nationalized and owned by the Federal Government. Once nationalized the TSX can be brought back down to earth and the old rules the TSE had for companies to be listed on the TSE can be restored.

It is so obvious we have pride filled politicians and bureacrats who have no vision. They can't see the forest from the trees and as such have ruin the Country.

whowhere · October 26, 2008

I'm confused. Aren't resources provincial and not Federal? Why should AB bail out ON when ON's unions have priced its labor out of the world market?

You are right why should any province bail out other provinces period. Some economists were floating the idea that equalization and transfer payments should be stopped and in its place each province will keep its GST collected. Hell, I'll go one step further and say each province should also keep all Federal Gas Taxes collected as well.

Canada's unwritten attitude has always been every province for themselves except when its time to get their welfare cheque from the Federal Government. If that's the Canada we are in there is no point in propping up the losers with welfare money. If each province's people can't find away to make their respective economies work, then all these people should think about relocating to other provinces who are able to function.

It is so obvious how alberta rolls. I see threads saying should we kick out Quebec. I think a thread should be started "should we kick out Alberta"

drewski · October 27, 2008

It's Alberta's oil and we'll do whatever the hell we want with it. Including.........wait for it.........allow it to be sold at world price. None of your damn business.

fine, your oil, whatever. but how about the massive profits they when they don't drop the price of gasoline at the same rate as it went up relative to the price of oil?

jbg · October 27, 2008

fine, your oil, whatever. but how about the massive profits they when they don't drop the price of gasoline at the same rate as it went up relative to the price of oil?

Actually, the spot price of gasoline has dropped far more %tagewise than the price of crude. Crude peaked at $147 per barrel, spot gas at around $3.60 per gallon. Spot gas is down to $1.47 per gallon, spot crude around $63. The problem is sufficiently serious that Sunoco has shut down part of its refining capacity since it is losing money on refining.

Gasoline on the street follows spot gasoline, with a lag. The street prices never reflected the peaks in the spot gas market.

guyser · October 27, 2008

Gasoline on the street follows spot gasoline, with a lag. The street prices never reflected the peaks in the spot gas market.

So when gas prices went up before the last hurricane even made landfall and this exact reason was used for the increase.....please explain.

M.Dancer · October 27, 2008

So when gas prices went up before the last hurricane even made landfall and this exact reason was used for the increase.....please explain.

Speculation and fear drove the barrel prices up.

guyser · October 27, 2008

Speculation and fear drove the barrel prices up.

I understand some of that increase.

Have a look at this, and I freely admit I dont know who they are, but I have reason to think the link is to a valid group.

Some of it here....

Now we’re getting pretty close to the answer. To go
back to the summer of 2005, between the middle of

June and the middle of September, crude oil prices

increased by $10 U.S. per barrel. Average Canadian

gasoline prices increased from just under 90 cents to

more than a dollar. In one week in early September,

the average price in Canada came within a whisker

of $1.30 per litre. Using our rule of thumb, the $10

increase in crude oil prices would have justified a 7.9

cent per-litre increase (including GST at the thenapplicable

7% rate) at the pumps, or about 97 cents

per litre. Not the $1.04 average in major Canadian

cities in the second half of September 2005. Not the

$1.09 average for the first full week in September,

2005. And certainly not the $1.30 the average price hit

around the 2005 Labour Day weekend.

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/documents..._Gouge_2007.pdf

blueblood · October 27, 2008

Commodity based companies have no business being on the TSX. Traditionally commodities were traded on other types of exchanges
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodities_exchange

The fact is TSX has been hijacked over the years and its performance skewed because of what was happening with Alberta. The only companies that should be traded on the TSX is Manufacturers, Services , Retail, Financials, Real Estate, etc, etc. Basically, companies that convert raw materials (Intellectial or material) into goods or services. These are companies that define a "developed" Country. When a stock exchange has these companies and the index is growing shows a country is on the right track.

Canada's decent into a resource economy can be linked to the Banking Sector. When the Banks were aloud into the Insurance and Broker business I have personally saw my auto insurance go up 100% and the Banks have single handedly ruined the Toronto Stock Excange and the Unlisted markets with there lofty attitudes towards the mobilization of capital. The TSX has become overly weighted resource type companies and other questionable companies.

Canada's Banks have been given to much power to ruin the Country with their greed and influence over self serving politicians and bureacrats. To right Canada, The Banks will have to be kicked out of the Auto Insurance, Broker Industries, and other Insurance industries. Once done Canada will once again heal towards a democratic, rule of law based nation. The TSX should be nationalized and owned by the Federal Government. Once nationalized the TSX can be brought back down to earth and the old rules the TSE had for companies to be listed on the TSE can be restored.

It is so obvious we have pride filled politicians and bureacrats who have no vision. They can't see the forest from the trees and as such have ruin the Country.

So western Canada isn't allowed to make more money than Ontario, nice real nice. Punishing those who succeed is brilliant economic policy <sarcasm>. Western Canada has every right to make the money it has earned. You saying you have the God given right to 80 cent gas is like me saying I have the God given right to a brand new Truck for 15,000. Why isn't there a National Manufacturing Policy where everyone in Canada gets Ontario made goods for less than market value? You sir are a hypocrite and a fool.

blueblood · October 27, 2008

dp

Edited October 27, 2008 by blueblood

guyser · October 27, 2008

Canada's decent into a resource economy can be linked to the Banking Sector. When the Banks were aloud into the Insurance and Broker business I have personally saw my auto insurance go up 100%

Because you have had an at fault accident, or you are comparing your policy from 1972 to todays premiums, or you used to insure a Vega and now you have a Bentley.

It sure as heck isnt because of Banks selling insurance.

Anything else is pure hyperbole.

jbg · October 28, 2008

So when gas prices went up before the last hurricane even made landfall and this exact reason was used for the increase.....please explain.

Futures and spot markets can watch the forecasts as easily as you and I can. In fact it's not uncommon for heating oil to spike well in advance of a cold wave heading for East Coast cities, and for prices to drop as the cold settles in.

jbg · October 28, 2008

I understand some of that increase.
Have a look at this, and I freely admit I dont know who they are, but I have reason to think the link is to a valid group.

Some of it here....

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/documents..._Gouge_2007.pdf

The figures appear quite valid. Katrina took out far more in the way of refining capacity than crude production. This increases what's called the "crack spread" or the spread between crude oil prices and their products, a mix of gasoline, heating oil, asphalt etc. Oil peaked, if I recall correctly, at around $74, and gasoline, on the spot market, at around $2.80 per US gallon. This would have translated to around $3.80 US on the street in my area, but the furthest up it made it was $3.39 (caught by declining prices). Using $2.50 a roughly the composite product price around then, the product price was $105 per barrel; an obscenely high spread. Later that fall, the crude price dropped to $50 and product to around $1.25 per gallon, or $52.50. Thus, most of the "crack spread" came out. During much of the 1990's, when oil was hovering around $15/bbl, products were around $0.50 per gallon overall, resulting in what used to be considered a normal crack spread of $6 per barrel.

By contrast, this past summer, when crude was bouncing around between $130 and $147, products ran around $136.50. This lack of a crack spread contributed to some of the spot gasoline shortages this past fall. Even now, crack spreads, and thus refining margins are agonizingly small. Post-Katrina levels were huge, but more is needed tha $1-$2 per barrel to make the refining and marketing systems work.

whowhere · October 28, 2008

So western Canada isn't allowed to make more money than Ontario, nice real nice. Punishing those who succeed is brilliant economic policy <sarcasm>. Western Canada has every right to make the money it has earned.

And You are a demented idiot. The origins of this thread was for Canada to adopt the same law requiring all oil produced in Canada be made available for Canada to use. Any oil left can be put on the world market at world prices. You know nothing about loyalty to your own country and putting the needs of your own country before your own greed. But the attitudes of those on this thread see no wrong in making Canadians pay world oil prices for their own oil even if that means widespread business bankruptcies and widescale unemployment for the rest of Canada. If that's your attitude get your own damn dollar and get those resource companies off the TSX. Because what has is Alberta has hijacked the value of the Canadian dollar and overrun the TSX with your shit ass resource companies.

You saying you have the God given right to 80 cent gas is like me saying I have the God given right to a brand new Truck for 15,000.

You make no sense. Oil is a resource like water, lumber. wind, crops, whatever. How does that relate to a finished good such as Truck? It is obvious you in Alberta have your heads so far up up your asses you do not see the world of pain headed for those involved in Oil. The fact is, if it were not for the Auto Industry, there would be no demand for oil. Look around Car Companies are laying off record amounts of workers. People are not buying cars because the oil companies have stolen all the peoples money. The oil Industry has crippled the Auto Industry. I am sure the Auto Industry is going to get its revenge.

That revenge will be Electric Cars similar to the GMs EV1 and I would say the Natural Gas Fuel Cells until they can figure out a Hydrogen infrastructure. So say goodbye to oil demand!!!

Why isn't there a National Manufacturing Policy where everyone in Canada gets Ontario made goods for less than market value? You sir are a hypocrite and a fool.

Yeah buddy your logic reminds me of what one of my classmates from public School in his yearbook: " If I had all the money in the world, I would give it to the poor" HUH????? Get it buddy, greed has its limits, and you are the fool.

whowhere · October 28, 2008

Because you have had an at fault accident, or you are comparing your policy from 1972 to todays premiums, or you used to insure a Vega and now you have a Bentley.
It sure as heck isnt because of Banks selling insurance.

Anything else is pure hyperbole.

No This was all since the year 2000. There was no reason for the jacking of my insurance rate especially since I only got basic liability for the most part. Before the Banks my insurance rates held steady and were declining. After the greedy banks got involved they started to go up.

White Doors · October 28, 2008

And You are a demented idiot. The origins of this thread was for Canada to adopt the same law requiring all oil produced in Canada be made available for Canada to use

It already is available for Canadian use. Irvings in NB buy their crude from Venezuela. You would have to convince them to buy it from Alberta instead. Why would they do that and why are you interested in making them? To what benefit? Also, as per our constitution, natural resources are the domain of the provinces - are you going to amend the constitution because you are angry about paying for gasoline? Who is the idiot now?

But the attitudes of those on this thread see no wrong in making Canadians pay world oil prices for their own oil even if that

I think the only greed we are talking about here is yours. You are seemingly the only one wanting something for nothing. That is greedy. Where are the discounted Ontario cars for sale in NB? Your views are myopic and your arguments are not well researched. Your name calling is quite descriptive however.

But the attitudes of those on this thread see no wrong in making Canadians pay world oil prices for their own oil even if that means widespread business bankruptcies and widescale unemployment for the rest of Canada. If that's your attitude get your own damn dollar and get those resource companies off the TSX. Because what has is Alberta has hijacked the value of the Canadian dollar and overrun the TSX with your shit ass resource companies.

You show me subsidized 'Canadian' cars and maybe then you wouldn't be a hypocrite. As it is you are seemingly only envious and angry. And greedy.

You make no sense. Oil is a resource like water, lumber. wind, crops, whatever. How does that relate to a finished good such as Truck? It is obvious you in Alberta have your heads so far up up your asses you do not see the world of pain headed for those involved in Oil. The fact is, if it were not for the Auto Industry, there would be no demand for oil. Look around Car Companies are laying off record amounts of workers. People are not buying cars because the oil companies have stolen all the peoples money. The oil Industry has crippled the Auto Industry. I am sure the Auto Industry is going to get its revenge.
That revenge will be Electric Cars similar to the GMs EV1 and I would say the Natural Gas Fuel Cells until they can figure out a Hydrogen infrastructure. So say goodbye to oil demand!!!

I find it odd that you cloak yourself in the flag and then seem to gleefily look forward to the demise of a significant part of the Canadian economy. Where is your loyalty?

Also, you should do some research about the oil sands process in Alberta. The refineries make a finished product and export. Someone else could say that the CAW simply screws in a few bolts from parts manufactured somewhere else. How is that a value-add? With the shuttering of the unionized plants in Ontario, apparently it is not much of a value-add in the eyes of some. How are the non-union plants doing? Maybe your anger is directed at the wrong target? The basis of your argument is not a rational one. Thankfully we have people in charge that make decisions very differently than you do.

Yeah buddy your logic reminds me of what one of my classmates from public School in his yearbook: " If I had all the money in the world, I would give it to the poor" HUH????? Get it buddy, greed has its limits, and you are the fool.

So you call him greedy and then accuse him of wanting to give money to the poor?

Your insults are as inconsistent as your 'argument' and 'logic'.