Dion's "Liberal Green Shift" carbon tax Plan

[madmax]

Here are my thoughts on this.

OTTAWA - The Liberals are poised to propose a "green shift" in taxation policy this week, saying Canadians are ready for bold moves to save the environment. Their proposed national carbon tax, to be phased in gradually over several years, would hit home heating fuel and electricity, ...continued

OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!

Here is good marketing tool to use to sell it.

FREEZE in the DARK!!! Vote Liberal.

and then.....

..... but not gas at the pumps.

Well thats good, maybe people will live in there cars.

Not GAS eh? What a scam to "save the planet".

I can't wait for the next election, and the dismissal of Dion.

[Topaz]

Here are my thoughts on this.

OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!

Here is good marketing tool to use to sell it.

FREEZE in the DARK!!! Vote Liberal.

and then.....

Well thats good, maybe people will live in there cars.

Not GAS eh? What a scam to "save the planet".

I can't wait for the next election, and the dismissal of Dion.

Since the Libs haven't YET said what the plan is, why get a heart attack over it?? I say, tax the polluters, and divide the money from the tax between Canadians and the environment like, planting trees, etc. Now, how can u complain if u get back money???

[AngusThermopyle]

Now, how can u complain if u get back money???

If being the key word. Liberals are good at taxing and taking, not so good at giving back.

[noahbody]

Energy companies are going to just pass on the cost to consumers by raising their prices. Their rate increase will be based not only on the cost of the tax, but any cost of adaption.

Anyway, does anyone acutally believe energy companies will lower their rates in future years, regardless if they lower their emission and lower their amount of tax paid?

[Oleg Bach]

Energy companies are going to just pass on the cost to consumers by raising their prices. Their rate increase will be based not only on the cost of the tax, but any cost of adaption.

Anyway, does anyone acutally believe energy companies will lower their rates in future years, regardless if they lower their emission and lower their amount of tax paid?

Why would they lower costs once we are incrimentally conditioned to the abuse? That would be like saying to your billionare brother in law....Hey can you give me a hundred bucks...I'm hurting" - At that point the super rich get an emotional power charge out of saying NO...it's human nature. Oil companies did not get to the top of the economic heap by being benevolent or civilized.

[jdobbin]

I can't wait for the next election, and the dismissal of Dion.

Layton and Harper's plan, according to some analysts that were featured in the Globe, believe that gas would go up by 30 or 40 cents a litre. What do you think of that?

Edited June 17, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

If being the key word. Liberals are good at taxing and taking, not so good at giving back.

The government previous to the Liberals under Chretien and Martin raised taxes nearly two dozen times. The first tax decreases you saw in decades were under the Liberals. And Flaherty's first two budgets didn't come close to matching the reductions in Martin's 2005 budget.

Meanwhile spending under the Tories continues to soar past the estimates each and every year.

[capricorn]

What gets me about all this hype about reducing GHG and climate change is that no matter what we do here in Canada, the benefits to the earth's climate are negated by the practices in developing countries in Asia. And this is affecting the climate on our west coast.

A massive cloud of pollution from Asia's fast-growing industrial economies is having wide-ranging effects on global climate and air quality. According to a study recently published in the Journal of Geophysical Research, tremendous plumes composed of dust, sulfates, smog, soot, nitrates and industrial gases are blowing off the coast of Asia and crossing the Pacific Ocean to the western United States.

-----

The most pressing issue relating to the plumes may be that of airborne solids, or aerosols, and their effect on global climate. Certain kinds of aerosols, such as sulfates, actually reflect sunlight and cause cooling. To a certain extent, these aerosols may be masking the severity of greenhouse gas buildup in the atmosphere. Meanwhile, other aerosols, such as soot, absorb solar radiation and contribute to rising temperatures.

According to a study published in the "Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences" in March, aerosols from Asia have other climatic effects beyond warming and cooling. The study reported that the pollution plumes are seeding ocean clouds with particulate matter, causing more powerful Pacific thunderstorms.

http://www.naturalnews.com/022357.html

The Asian pollution rides over the ocean principally during springtime, when strong winds cut a path to North America. Jaffe's group first detected a clear burst of pollution on March 29, 1997, at a research site located on Cheeka Peak in Washington, near the westernmost tip of the contiguous United States. Measurements of air coming from the Pacific showed a jump in the concentrations of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and other pollutants from fossil-fuel combustion. A meteorological computer model that tracks winds indicated that the polluted air had started in Asia 6 days earlier.

An even larger shipment of Asian pollution arrived in North America late last April. A series of strong dust storms in China lifted 140 million tons of fine soil particles into the atmosphere, where they were swept up by winds moving east, says Douglas L. Westphal of the Naval Research Laboratory in Monterey, Calif. The dust cloud appeared on satellite images, which showed the plume crossing the Pacific toward North America, he says.

It took a week for the dust to reach western North America, where it turned the sky milky white, says Thomas A. Cahill of the University of California, Davis. In late April, the Asian dust was so thick that the concentrations of fine particles in the air at the usually pristine site of Crater Lake, Ore., equaled 40 percent of the EPA daily allowable limit for the United States.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m120...154/ai_53487386

Now, this can't be any good for our environment and air quality but there's no way of stopping it, is there.

Now about a carbon tax, I'm all for individual efforts to reduce our use of energy and I see signs everywhere that Canadians take this initiative seriously. I'm not in favour of a federal plan to redistribute money on the basis of one's "carbon footprint". What I see in such a plan is another bureaucracy to collect money from one side and to divvy it up on the other side. And let's not forget we'd need an appeal process for those who want to challenge carbon tax assessments. Hooey...it's enough to make your head spin.

[madmax]

Since the Libs haven't YET said what the plan is, why get a heart attack over it?? I say, tax the polluters, and divide the money from the tax between Canadians and the environment like, planting trees, etc. Now, how can u complain if u get back money???

The Liberals have backed away on "Taxing Gas" because they know it is bad politics and the CPC jumped all over them with their attack adds. It has nothing to do with "taxing the polluters". What the petroleum at the pump is no longer polluting when it comes out the tail pipe. WHAT A LOAD OF BUNK!!! It is a tax grab, like all the other provinces that are jumping on the band wagon. And the Federal Liberals want to follow suit.

This is a tax to be put upon modest income homeowners on their ELECTRICITY and the HEAT!!!

My Hydro Bill is in the lowest bracket, not the highest, and I do not need the government taxing me, telling me I am a polluter, under the guise of saving the planet.

Same goes with heating . Planting a TREE is not going to save me on heating costs, unless you expect me to cut the tree down and BURN it. I just moved away from my lovely fireplace in the country, and my insurance company is not fond of me putting a wood stove in the home.

The Government will not be giving money "BACK" to anyone without cutting services.

I do not relish hydro companies doing the same to people overly burdened by this cash grab.

[jdobbin]

Liberal plan leaked.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/18/...arbon-plan.html

The new details confirmed by CBC News sources Wednesday include:

* Across-the-board personal income tax cuts of about 10 per cent for all three tax brackets, as people pay more for heating costs, food and other items.

* A moratorium on new federal taxes on aviation and diesel fuel for the first year of the program.

* Extra help for low-income Canadians in the form of tax credits so they will get money back to help pay for higher cost of goods, even if they report no income on their tax returns.

* Additional help for rural and northern Canadians to help soften the blow of possibly higher costs.

* Assistance for non-profit groups that may face a crunch — for example, women's shelters that have to pay significantly more to heat their premises.

* New tariffs on goods imported from countries that have no carbon taxes, as a way to even out higher costs for similar goods produced in Canada.

* Enriched tax breaks for companies using and inventing green technologies, to encourage research and development as well as investment.

If these details are confirmed when Dion unveils the plan Thursday, the carbon tax will provide between $12 billion and $15 billion in revenue to the federal government in the fourth year of its implementation.

[madmax]

Liberal plan leaked.

Are you kidding...

I provided the thread title...

Look at it....

DIONS PLAN

So that YOU wouldn't have to take the flack for starting another thread title to talk about the Liberals.

I expect a warm hearted thank you.......

Let the comments begin.... (again)

[noahbody]

Liberal's carbon plan to offer $15.5 billion in tax cuts

Wow, when was the last time the Conservatives got a headline that positive from the CBC?

[Topaz]

ON CBC, Don Newman, had some of the plan and in it yes, hydro will go up but Dion plan is for 4 years and each year low and middle-income gets more income tax money back to off-set the increases for high prices. Gas prices won't go up because of the carbon tax, he said the Feds already collect 10 cents on every litre now. BUT, I'll wait and see what Dion says tomorrow at 10AM.

[jdobbin]

Are you kidding...

I provided the thread title...

Look at it....

DIONS PLAN

So that YOU wouldn't have to take the flack for starting another thread title to talk about the Liberals.

I expect a warm hearted thank you.......

Let the comments begin.... (again)

Many of the details just came out today. You provided no link in your first post so I was never able to see if details revealed today were identical to the speculation you first posted.

The only post I have started in the last several about the federal Liberals was to criticize federal Liberal policy initiatives.

What I'd like to hear is how the Tory and NDP plans won't end up in any gas increases. The expert panel in the Globe and Mail said either plan would likely pass on a 30 to 40 cent increase in the price of gas.

The NDP make out that there is no cost to their program. Where is the criticism of that? Over anyone's dead body?

Edited June 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Wow, when was the last time the Conservatives got a headline that positive from the CBC?

The media has been giving great play to Tory criticism of the Liberal policy. That would include the CBC.

Edited June 18, 2008 by jdobbin

[Kleiniken]

Unfortunately for the liberals I think their 10 years too late with their plan. THe buzz is off global warming, the acid test namely actual warming of the planet has not occured as planned. I think the average canadian wants a carbon tax like the want a hole in their head.

If it takes a tax to modify peoples behavior they probably:

A. Don't believe any of the hype and therefore won't change their lifestyles

b. Don't think its a big enough deal to change their lifestyles

If Canadian won't reduce Green house Gas usage on their own what chance do the Dion liberals have of getting elected on a massive tax increase and forcing people into a change they don't want? Kind of like asking someones permission to mug them and then promissing to give the money back when they turn their lives around.

[jdobbin]

Unfortunately for the liberals I think their 10 years too late with their plan. THe buzz is off global warming, the acid test namely actual warming of the planet has not occured as planned. I think the average canadian wants a carbon tax like the want a hole in their head.

Polling has shown people will support action on climate change.

With a 10 percent reduction in income taxes, the plan looks a lot more intriguing than the Tory plan which will likely pass on quite a hefty increase in gas tax.

If it takes a tax to modify peoples behavior they probably:

A. Don't believe any of the hype and therefore won't change their lifestyles

b. Don't think its a big enough deal to change their lifestyles

Two words: cigarrete taxes.

If Canadian won't reduce Green house Gas usage on their own what chance do the Dion liberals have of getting elected on a massive tax increase and forcing people into a change they don't want? Kind of like asking someones permission to mug them and then promissing to give the money back when they turn their lives around.

Coupled with a massive income tax cut?

The Tory plan is to let big polluters to pass on the burden to the consumer.

[Riverwind]

The Tory plan is to let big polluters to pass on the burden to the consumer.

An F for economics. Any plan to increase costs for businesses will either a) cause those businesses to shutdown/relocate or b ) increase costs for consumers. Edited June 19, 2008 by Riverwind

[Wild Bill]

Two words: cigarrete taxes.

One word: contraband!

[Keepitsimple]

Polling has shown people will support action on climate change.

With a 10 percent reduction in income taxes, the plan looks a lot more intriguing than the Tory plan which will likely pass on quite a hefty increase in gas tax.

Two words: cigarrete taxes.

Coupled with a massive income tax cut?

The Tory plan is to let big polluters to pass on the burden to the consumer.

The middle class gets whacked again. First of all, Dion's plan says that it will be revenue neutral to the Federal government - not to taxpayers - that is a very key point. Now lets see, he's going to give tax breaks to corporations and special tax breaks to Rural and northern citizens, seniors, the low-income sector, non-profit organizations and lord knows who else....so regardless of his thumbnail sketch of a 10% reduction in personal taxes - it's obvious that much of the "tax relief" will not be coming to the Middle Class - the ones who proportionally are most affected by the increased cost. Every dollar will not be returned to Canadians - and Canadians who pay the most taxes to run this country (the middle class) will benefit the least from this "tax shift". The shift is definitely going to hit the fan.

[myata]

An F for economics. Any plan to increase costs for businesses will either a) cause those businesses to shutdown/relocate or b ) increase costs for consumers.

In yesterdays review of the plan on major channels, it was shown that it provides significant income tax breaks for consumers (1+ % in each tax break) and businesses (corporate tax reductions, don't remember details). Therefore the scheme only adds costs for those consumers and businesses that overuse critical resources.

I like the large income tax break and have no problem with disproportionate emitters being punished while those who improve efficiency of their homes and businesses, benefit.

[August1991]

The middle class gets whacked again. First of all, Dion's plan says that it will be revenue neutral to the Federal government - not to taxpayers - that is a key point. Now lets see, he's going to give tax breaks to corporations and special tax breaks to Rural and northern citizens, seniors, the low-income sector, non-profit organizations and lord knows who else....so regardless of his thumbnail sketch of a 10% reduction in personal taxes - it's obvious that much of the "tax relief" will not be coming to the Middle Class - the ones who proportionally are most affected by the increased cost.

That's not correct.

Dion's proposal will tax people who emit CO2. If you heat with oil, and you use electricity generated with coal, you will see prices rise. If your house is large and you use air conditioning in summer, you emit proportionately more CO2 than average.

Dion is on the right track with this proposal. Governments in the future will increasingly tax our use of natural resources including the environment.

My main concern is that the Liberals have no credibility when it comes to tax promises. In otice that Dion has givenm the Auditor-General the authority to audit the "revenue neutral" promise. That promise alone is pathetic.

[myata]

Some detail of the plan: CBC story

[jdobbin]

An F for economics. Any plan to increase costs for businesses will either a) cause those businesses to shutdown/relocate or b ) increase costs for consumers.

You're giving the Tory plan and F?

I was suggesting what the Tory plan was, not what the results might be. You obviously don't hear the Tories talk about any costs to their plan. You merely hear the costs will be passed on without any detail. They certainly don't talk about plant shutdowns.

[jdobbin]

The middle class gets whacked again. First of all, Dion's plan says that it will be revenue neutral to the Federal government - not to taxpayers - that is a very key point. Now lets see, he's going to give tax breaks to corporations and special tax breaks to Rural and northern citizens, seniors, the low-income sector, non-profit organizations and lord knows who else....so regardless of his thumbnail sketch of a 10% reduction in personal taxes - it's obvious that much of the "tax relief" will not be coming to the Middle Class - the ones who proportionally are most affected by the increased cost. Every dollar will not be returned to Canadians - and Canadians who pay the most taxes to run this country (the middle class) will benefit the least from this "tax shift". The shift is definitely going to hit the fan.

Citation for your analysis?