Assimilation

[Army Guy]

Sorry to burst the "Canadians = white Christian" non-sensical bubble, but...

Did'nt we just have serveral very long posts giving us the orginal history of Canada, and although i did not state any where that to be Canadian one did not have to be "white christian",

but this country was orginally built by those same people and thier customs and values are deeply inbeded into "our Canadian culture" it's not being intolerant or racist, just fact.

Canadian identity is not about what people wear on their head

Your wrong, the Canadian mounty uniform is recongized world wide, and it is a Canadian icon, much like the beaver or moose....The military helmet and beret is the same it is what "all Canadian soldiers wear, to indentify them from the bad guys changing it confuses the issue, not to mention the safty issues....all in the name of polictical correctness...or once again the majority trying to adapt with the minority....

True Christians do not force others to pray with them

You've taken this prayer thing out of context, nobody is forcing anyone to pray, nor are they forcing them to pray to christian gods....hell pray to whom ever you want...but in this case christian religion is the majority religion, and to accomdate to minority religion it was decided to cancel pray in schools period....

Most muslim countries have dedicated pray timings and places, and when canadian vist those countries do we bitch and whine as some have called it to have that changed , no we adapt and do what we have to to fit in....

Much like taking the singing the national athem out of schools....it was done to be policitcally correct....but to whom....and why does the majority need to bend and give up it's culture

And for the Americanization bit... This is not the United States, and American culture is not our culture. But at least that statement is pretty indicative that your whining has less to do with cultureand identity than with just plain fear of anything different..

Really is that why we need regulations on Canadian content on our radio and TV stations....American and Canadian culture are pretty close, with american culture having more influence on ours than you think....

As for me whinning and my fear about anything different, i have no fear just concerns.

The way I see it, what is totally unjustified is hiding one's intolerence behind the flag then claiming that our identity involves becoming American.

I'm not hiding behind anything, i have said i have concerns, but i guess a white christian is not intiled to have concerns for fear of being labeled intolerant or perhaps a racist....

I'm a serving member of our Armed forces, and i serve "all" Canadians not just white or christian....and i do so proudly....

[GostHacked]

Some Canadian Icons should remain untouched.

Army Guy says.

Your wrong, the Canadian mounty uniform is recongized world wide, and it is a Canadian icon, much like the beaver or moose....The military helmet and beret is the same it is what "all Canadian soldiers wear, to indentify them from the bad guys changing it confuses the issue, not to mention the safty issues....all in the name of polictical correctness...or once again the majority trying to adapt with the minority....

Those that bent to the will of those who would rather wear a turban than the coveted RCMP hat, should just simply not be an RCMP officer. It is one of those things that it is all , or nothing. We have traditions to, and nowhere is there the long standing tradition of a freakin turban.

All countries have smiliar icons. Those icons represent an important aspect of the country. If that continues and anyone can wear any kind of hat in the RMCP, then it stops becomming the RCMP, and breaks down into something that is a shadow of it's former self.

One friend recently was accepted into the RCMP, and she will do just fine. We had the discussion about that one day, and she said it before me. She has worked hard, and will work hard to be able to earn the privelage of wearing the RCMP hat. The hat and the uniform represent something to her in the way she has thrown her life into it, to get the chance to wear the hat. The RMCP officer with the turban will always be considered an outsider to me.

Leafless

Finally you realize integration requires a comprehensive Canadian definiton.

Do you realize you were looking for the word Interview and not Interrogation?

[guyser]

Some Canadian Icons should remain untouched.

Then ask your friend, the girl, to quit . Woman mounties goes against the icon.

Not what you expected was it?

The icon is there, when full dress is required , the mountie stetson is worn. The RCMP at the airport wear regular cop caps.....is that an icon?

[CANADIEN]

Your wrong, the Canadian mounty uniform is recongized world wide, and it is a Canadian icon, much like the beaver or moose....The military helmet and beret is the same it is what "all Canadian soldiers wear, to indentify them from the bad guys changing it confuses the issue, not to mention the safty issues....all in the name of polictical correctness...or once again the majority trying to adapt with the minority....

A Canadian soldier is not less of a soldier or a Canadian because he's wearing a turban. Same with cops. The head covering does not make the soldier or the cop.

You've taken this prayer thing out of context, nobody is forcing anyone to pray, nor are they forcing them to pray to christian gods....hell pray to whom ever you want...but in this case christian religion is the majority religion, and to accomdate to minority religion it was decided to cancel pray in schools period....

Let's talk about the context indeed. The prayer at the start of the day was mandatory, usually no exception, and was the Our Father, a CHRISTIAN prayer. Like it or not, non-Christian schoochildren had to either participate in a Christian prayer, or be marginalized. Freedom of religion exists in this country.

Most muslim countries have dedicated pray timings and places, and when canadian vist those countries do we bitch and whine as some have called it to have that changed , no we adapt and do what we have to to fit in....

Are non-Muslim schoolchildren in the countries you mention forced into take part in the morning prayer to Allah. If so, it is a violation of the universal right to freedom of religion, and one more reason why I prefer to live in a country where that right is respected.

[CANADIEN]

Some Canadian Icons should remain untouched.

Those that bent to the will of those who would rather wear a turban than the coveted RCMP hat, should just simply not be an RCMP officer. It is one of those things that it is all , or nothing. We have traditions to, and nowhere is there the long standing tradition of a freakin turban.

Traditionally, RCMP officers have been white and male. Are these traditions to be maintained too, or is freedom of religion the only human right you have a problem with?

[M.Dancer]

What gets me about the Mountie hat foo faa is how stupid it is. Another way of looking at it is Soldiers should continue wearing the steel soup balls their grand dads wore in the trenches of france....

But the point is, the Stetson isn't even a Canadian hat, nor is it the only hat the mounties wear nor is it the hat they wear on a daily basis.

I wonder if their had been web forums eoans ago, would the wags have been in a kerfuffle over ditching the Pill box for the pith helmet, or ditching the pith helmet for the american cowboy hat?

But lets not equate apples and bull testicles....no one is ditching the American Stetson....just that some upstanding citizens of the Sikh faith feel that they can serve their Queen and Country as well as their God.

Now what kind of Canada would we have if we made people choose between Nation and God?

[Army Guy]

A Canadian soldier is not less of a soldier or a Canadian because he's wearing a turban. Same with cops. The head covering does not make the soldier or the cop.

I'm not talking about the uniform making the cop or soldier, or deminishing the quality of said persons...I'm talking about tradition, a Canadian ICON, it is a symbol that is recognized world wide as Canadian....And to some it is important, as it is a canadian icon that should not be changed....

So if and when a Hare krishna wants to join the RCMP or military and keep his pink robe and sell flowers at the airport because it is his religious beliefs, do we allow this....and when he screams "Stop police" or i'll fire....what does the average Canadian or for that matter anyone do....

Let's talk about the context indeed. The prayer at the start of the day was mandatory, usually no exception, and was the Our Father, a CHRISTIAN prayer. Like it or not, non-Christian schoochildren had to either participate in a Christian prayer, or be marginalized. Freedom of religion exists in this country.

Once again you missed the piont, The majority are force to change one of thier religious rights the right to prayer because of a minority group, no one is saying that all religions must site the lords prayer, like i said pray to what ever god or what ever pray you want to, would have been a simpler solution, but instead it was decided "no Pray in school" along with many other examples....

Are non-Muslim schoolchildren in the countries you mention forced into take part in the morning prayer to Allah. If so, it is a violation of the universal right to freedom of religion, and one more reason why I prefer to live in a country where that right is respected.

Your kidding me right.....what is wrong with a teacher to say to her class, bow your heads and pray...pray to god, allah, britney spears if you like , but give each student time for religious pray....

They should expect that Christian symbols and traditions are behind some of these country most important holidays, but also that one does not have to be Christian to be Canadian.

I agree and have said so, But my question is why are we changing them to accomdate a minority group....by diluting them over time will anyone be able to indentify them as Canadian....

Traditionally, RCMP officers have been white and male. Are these traditions to be maintained too, or is freedom of religion the only human right you have a problem with?

Women in the RCMP have not changed the look of the uniform, ok maybe it has more curves, and they look better than thier male counter parts but the ICON and tradition has remained unchanged.....Same goes for everone else and ever other race that has worn the uniform.....it's not about religion or race it's about Canadian icons and traditions.

What gets me about the Mountie hat foo faa is how stupid it is. Another way of looking at it is Soldiers should continue wearing the steel soup balls their grand dads wore in the trenches of france....

Perhaps tradition and Icons are stupid but show a picture of a mountie on horse back any where in the world and most will be able to tell you it's a Canadian mountie....it's one of those icons that makes up who we are...

But lets not equate apples and bull testicles....no one is ditching the American Stetson....just that some upstanding citizens of the Sikh faith feel that they can serve their Queen and Country as well as their God.

I don't think pink is a good color for the RCMP, but maybe we'll try all in the name of moving forward and being part of a diverse country.

[M.Dancer]

I don't think pink is a good color for the RCMP, but maybe we'll try all in the name of moving forward and being part of a diverse country.

Get back to me when there is someone whose faith forbids them from wearing anything other than pink. Then you will at least have the beginning of a point.

[Army Guy]

As for the white christian thing, well , good ! I dont need white nor christians telling me nor planning the culture of canada.

But I will ask as I have leafless (who wont answer) ,what are we loosing that are canadian or white culture?

Look i'm not sugesting that being white or christian is the superior race, nor i'm i suggesting that other races or religions have not played a part in the development of this country....what i'm saying is why are why changing historical icons and traditions we already have. History is history why should we forget our orgins....

So what you are telling me is , it's not happening, that traditions and Icons are not changing or being deluted to suit everyone....

I have no problem with anyone wishing to live in Canada , all are welcome, but be prepared to adapt to our culture...as they would expect us to adapt to thier culture.

There is a contradiction here as I am sure you now see.

But that aside, whatever the culture we have can only be enhanced all the while being assimilated by newcomers to this country, in time that is. We can look at sport culture for instance and see that many kids playing pro hockey come from immigrant parents. Why? Because kids have a need to fit in and do what the neighbourhood kids do. Thats assimilation in most respects. We suck at soccer...er footie for the enthusiasts and I wonder why? Because to play it is not entirely our culture, not to mention we dont have the infrastructure for it.(not to mention the weather)

So if you see the contradiction why can't you see my piont....although a small one, i've already said it i don't care if your purple with warts on your dick, you want to live in Canada and become a canadian you should be prepare to make some changes....don't ask me to change a Canadian icon or symbol to match your purple dick....as we would not want to enter another country and ask the majority to change for us...

Christmas holidays....quite drinking the O'Reillly kool-aid. It never was nor will be renamed.

Actually it has already happened, in the military a federal government dept, we are not allow to ref to the christmas holidays as just that ....because it is a christian term, but rather must ref to it as the holiday season or holiday break....

just as we are not allow to call the traditional "mens christmas dinner", was changed to the soldiers christmas dinner, as we now have women serving, then was later changed to the soldiers dinner as once again christmas is a christian term....

same as all the holidays that have a christian reference, such as easter, etc, etc ....

I can only assume that this is effective across the entire federal government and not something that the military dreamt up....

Dozens of other military traditions have been deleted or changed because of thier orginal back ground....

so while it sounds like i'm on the Reillly cool aid, clearly someone was when they came up with these changes....

[CANADIEN]

I'm not talking about the uniform making the cop or soldier, or deminishing the quality of said persons...I'm talking about tradition, a Canadian ICON, it is a symbol that is recognized world wide as Canadian....And to some it is important, as it is a canadian icon that should not be changed....

So if and when a Hare krishna wants to join the RCMP or military and keep his pink robe and sell flowers at the airport because it is his religious beliefs, do we allow this....and when he screams "Stop police" or i'll fire....what does the average Canadian or for that matter anyone do....

One of the tenet of the western hare Krishna movement is non-violence and pacifism. By definition, they would not want to join the army or the police. Better luck next time.... As for me, between the hat and religious freedom, I consider religious freedom to be a more important Canadian icon and tradition. And getting the right people for the jobs is the most important thing, way before any tradition.

Once again you missed the piont, The majority are force to change one of thier religious rights the right to prayer because of a minority group, no one is saying that all religions must site the lords prayer, like i said pray to what ever god or what ever pray you want to, would have been a simpler solution, but instead it was decided "no Pray in school" along with many other examples...

The point is that the prayer of a specific religious used to be mandatory, and most people who favour the return of prayer in schools want that one, not a free choice. Besides, religious neutrality of public institutions does not violate freedom of religion, and schoolchildren are still able to pray on their own time and at their own pace.

Your kidding me right.....what is wrong with a teacher to say to her class, bow your heads and pray...pray to god, allah, britney spears if you like , but give each student time for religious pray....

YOU are kidding me, right. Teachers in a a public school have no business telling kids to pray, or not to pray for that manner. And what are atheist kids (a growing number in our wonderful country) supposed to do? That's right, pray to Britney Spears... Allowing a moment for silent reflection at the start of the day would be one thing (and a good thing in my own opinion), and the kids are then free to use it to pray if they wish so, but it should stay at that.

Women in the RCMP have not changed the look of the uniform, ok maybe it has more curves, and they look better than thier male counter parts but the ICON and tradition has remained unchanged.....Same goes for everone else and ever other race that has worn the uniform.....it's not about religion or race it's about Canadian icons and traditions.

Nice to see that when you pick and choose which traditions to be upheld by the RCMP racism and sexism are discarted. When I pick and choose, I pick freedom of religion. Indeed, I'll pick human rights before the form of the head covering any time.

[Army Guy]

Get back to me when there is someone whose faith forbids them from wearing anything other than pink. Then you will at least have the beginning of a point.

OK i was wrong about the color, but does that change my piont about changing the RCMP uniform to include robes, of what ever earthly tones you perfer.....where do we draw the line....if we make one exception then are we not forced to include all of them....i mean we want to be toleratant, don't we....

[CANADIEN]

OK i was wrong about the color, but does that change my piont about changing the RCMP uniform to include robes, of what ever earthly tones you perfer.....where do we draw the line....if we make one exception then are we not forced to include all of them....i mean we want to be toleratant, don't we....

Get back to us when you have one example of a religion that mandates the wearing o robes at all time and it all circumstances.

[Rue]

If only we could call Leafless things that are against the forum rules, it would not be libel.

Lol. Not a bad zinger for a socialist nerd....and they say you guys have no sense of humour. Hah.

I am still working on the gentile sandwitches. At least Canadien has given me dispensation from putting on a Leaf sweater.

Now on a more serious note, Army Guy all any of us has to know is, real Canadian bagels are made in Montreal.

Anything else is nonsense.

from my perspective Canada has always been made up of its original (aboriginal) origins, then its subsequent French and English colonial origins, and then the subsequent contributon of all the rest of us cheese wiz that then came after. I have no problem with a country with 4 vital components to its identity.

I am not sure what all the fuss is. I have friends who are Christian and speak English. Its just the checker pants their parents wear that make me a bit confused. I keep wanting to play chess on their backside.

[M.Dancer]

OK i was wrong about the color, but does that change my piont about changing the RCMP uniform to include robes, of what ever earthly tones you perfer.....where do we draw the line....if we make one exception then are we not forced to include all of them....i mean we want to be toleratant, don't we....

No one has tried to change the uniform....just an allowance to wear a different headdress from the one currently worn now which is the 3rd or 4th hat they have worn.

Do you remember a few years ago when the Queen Mum was over and she was going to review as Colonel in Chief of the Black Wacth (RHC)? The hub bub that was made because the female members of the regiment could not stand in Parade because they had no formal kit?

I think you might agree that since their was no kilt for the woman to wear, they could bot participate......it is equally absurd to prohibit patriotic canadians from serving their country simply because an ameican hat doen't fit.

[Army Guy]

One of the tenet of the western hare Krishna movement is non-violence and pacifism. By definition, they would not want to join the army or the police. Better luck next time..

So your saying it will never happen, would your opinion be of the same if an RCMP officer wanted to join them but wanted to keep his hat and boot's.....would you still have a case....

As for me, between the hat and religious freedom, I consider religious freedom to be a more important Canadian icon and tradition. And getting the right people for the jobs is the most important thing, way before any tradition.

And all others that don't agree, or have concerns that perhaps traditions are being lost, are just intoleratant....because a few out of thousands wanted things to change...

YOU are kidding me, right. Teachers in a a public school have no business telling kids to pray, or not to pray for that manner. And what are atheist kids (a growing number in our wonderful country) supposed to do? That's right, pray to Britney Spears... Allowing a moment for silent reflection at the start of the day would be one thing (and a good thing in my own opinion), and the kids are then free to use it to pray if they wish so, but it should stay at that.

You can call it what ever you want, but instead of some sort of comprimise being reached....The majority just said screw it....cancel it entirely....instead of confronting the problem we quickly side stepped it....see a new tradition is born....

Nice to see that when you pick and choose which traditions to be upheld by the RCMP racism and sexism are discarted. When I pick and choose, I pick freedom of religion. Indeed, I'll pick human rights before the form of the head covering any time.

what human rights have been broken here, sorry if you want to become an RCMP officer this is the uniform....don't like it join something else...what human rights have been broken, our country is full of examples that everyone is not treated the same or is placed at a disadvantage....do we correct them all...

[Army Guy]

Get back to us when you have one example of a religion that mandates the wearing o robes at all time and it all circumstances.

They are allowed to sleep naked, so i don't know if they count....but then again i don't know of any montie that sleeps with thier uniform on either...well except that guy on south of 40....

-Tibetian monks.

- budist monks.

There is more if you like.

[CANADIEN]

So your saying it will never happen, would your opinion be of the same if an RCMP officer wanted to join them but wanted to keep his hat and boot's.....would you still have a case....

If that's the best you can come with...

what human rights have been broken here(...)

Freedom of religion

[Army Guy]

Now on a more serious note, Army Guy all any of us has to know is, real Canadian bagels are made in Montreal.

Anything else is nonsense.

Your right Rue, this conversation is getting way to serious, and i'm sure i will not lose sleep over the changes to what is Canadian icons or Canadian culture, it just concerns me alittle...

Hey lets not forget real pizza, Montreal has the best pizza...

[CANADIEN]

They are allowed to sleep naked, so i don't know if they count....but then again i don't know of any montie that sleeps with thier uniform on either...well except that guy on south of 40....

-Tibetian monks.

- budist monks.

There is more if you like.

Last time I checked, buddhist monks (Tibetan or otherwise) do not seek to join armies or police forces... because of their vows to their monasteries.

[Army Guy]

If that's the best you can come with...

perhaps if you answered the orginal question, i would'nt have had to dumb it down...

Freedom of religion

Freedom of religion trumps what exactly....what about the freedom of rights of the majority....does thier freedoms get trumped because one out of millions wants to exercise one of thier rights....

[guyser]

First off, let me thank you for your service.

Look i'm not sugesting that being white or christian is the superior race, nor i'm i suggesting that other races or religions have not played a part in the development of this country....what i'm saying is why are why changing historical icons and traditions we already have. History is history why should we forget our orgins....

but thats the gist.

The icons are still there. The PR with the Mountie is a white guy on a horse with jodphurs and the mountie hat. Hasnt changed one iota.

The tradition of christmas is still there. Turkey stuffing cranberry. Hasnt changed.

So what you are telling me is , it's not happening, that traditions and Icons are not changing or being deluted to suit everyone....

correct.

What has changed is since all people of all faiths pay taxes , then we need to recognize the fact and remove funded religious affairs from the public coffers , its either that or we pay for all of them.

Actually it has already happened, in the military a federal government dept, we are not allow to ref to the christmas holidays as just that ....because it is a christian term, but rather must ref to it as the holiday season or holiday break....

just as we are not allow to call the traditional "mens christmas dinner", was changed to the soldiers christmas dinner, as we now have women serving, then was later changed to the soldiers dinner as once again christmas is a christian term....

same as all the holidays that have a christian reference, such as easter, etc, etc ....

I can only assume that this is effective across the entire federal government and not something that the military dreamt up....

Since the .mil cannot afford to be seen as a christian stronghold if they want to attract the best and the brightest , good for them.

so while it sounds like i'm on the Reillly cool aid, clearly someone was when they came up with these changes....

That may have been a bit prickly of me to say , however, the major changes to christmas have come from retailers who only wanted to broaden their appeal in order to make more money.

There is no mandate handed down to ditch everything christian. The .gov and the minions have moved towards reducing or eliminating any singular religious funding. That to me is a good thing.

You mentioned that at schools a teacher shouold tell the kids to lower their head and pray to whomever.

Why? My kids an atheist? Why waste the time on something the parents should do at home with their own kids.

Again, other than as a teaching lesson schools should fast track away from religion . If you were to advocate more religious lessons or classes I would agree.

But no more prayers

[eyeball]

But no more prayers

Amen.

[CANADIEN]

Freedom of religion trumps what exactly....what about the freedom of rights of the majority....does thier freedoms get trumped because one out of millions wants to exercise one of thier rights....

I am part of the majority. So tell me... which of my rights and freedom is denied because a few Mounties wear turbans, as mandated by their faith?

Here's our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Feel free to quote me which of my rights are being violated. I'll be away for 11 days starting tomorrow, so you'll have plenty of time to try.

[g_bambino]

Did'nt we just have serveral very long posts giving us the orginal history of Canada, and although i did not state any where that to be Canadian one did not have to be "white christian",

but this country was orginally built by those same people and thier customs and values are deeply inbeded into "our Canadian culture" it's not being intolerant or racist, just fact.

I thought that's what you were getting at. Canadien and I can hypothesise all we want about your beliefs and intents, but nothing surmounts your own explanation of yourself, which I was hoping you'd offer.

Your wrong, the Canadian mounty uniform is recongized world wide, and it is a Canadian icon, much like the beaver or moose....The military helmet and beret is the same it is what "all Canadian soldiers wear, to indentify them from the bad guys changing it confuses the issue, not to mention the safty issues....all in the name of polictical correctness...or once again the majority trying to adapt with the minority....

Though the Mountie hat is but one example, I wonder just why the rules of the uniform had to be bent to accommodate a minority. I believe, if I remember correctly, that the argument was one that revolved around religious traditions. But, I've since learned that Sikhs don't have to wear turbans; they can also wear a smaller head covering that can fit under a helmet or hat. There are Sikhs in the Indian Air Force, after all; and there were in RAF during WWII as well. It seems, then, that the accommodation of a turban in the RCMP uniform was indeed more for political correctness than to right any wrong.

If that was the case, then it serves as an illustration of a recklessness in regards to tradition, which, as old-fart as it makes me sound, is an extremely important part of culture; an absolute necessity for it, I'd say. Of course, cultures change; but, too quick too fast, and for no apparent good reason, isn't beneficial in the long run, for anyone.

[CANADIEN]

Though the Mountie hat is but one example, I wonder just why the rules of the uniform had to be bent to accommodate a minority. I believe, if I remember correctly, that the argument was one that revolved around religious traditions. But, I've since learned that Sikhs don't have to wear turbans; they can also wear a smaller head covering that can fit under a helmet or hat. There are Sikhs in the Indian Air Force, after all; and there were in RAF during WWII as well. It seems, then, that the accommodation of a turban in the RCMP uniform was indeed more for political correctness than to right any wrong.

Only one sect of Sikhism views turbans as non-mandatory. For the vast majority of Sikhs, it is an essential and mandatory requirement of their faiths.

You are right in assuming that some Sikhs wear a smaller head covering (called a patka). This is worn by Sikh boys and young men. As Sikh males are required never to cut their hair, the patka will do as long as it is big enough to cover the whole hair; at one point they have to graduate to a full turban as the patka no longer suffices.

I am not sure about the RAF and Indian Air Forces (although I saw a picture of a WWII Sikh Air pilot cimbing on his plane wearing a turban and no helmet), but Sikh soliders served with distinction in both World Wars in land units wearing their helmets.

Now, some Sikhs do decide, for whatever personal reasons (including desire to fit in or avoid discrimination) to forgo the turban. That personal choice should not be taken as justification for denying the freedom of religion of other Sikhs.