CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Would i call it a crises, probly not, but it is concerning that Canadians really have very little that identifies them as Canadian. And slowly we are lossing those very things that are "Canadian or white christain", I have no problem with anyone wishing to live in Canada , all are welcome, but be prepared to adapt to our culture...as they would expect us to adapt to thier culture. -The mounty hat, and military helmet thing. -Prayer in schools ( religion in general) -Christmas holidays being renamed. ( again a religion thing) - Americanization of Canadians - The Queen Canada in crises Canadian indentity identity crises Sorry to burst the "Canadians = white Christian" non-sensical bubble, but... Canadian identity is not about what people wear on their head True Christians do not force others to pray with them We have freedom of religion in Canada And for the Americanization bit... This is not the United States, and American culture is not our culture. But at least that statement is pretty indicative that your whining has less to do with cultureand identity than with just plain fear of anything different.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 But at least that statement is pretty indicative that your whining has less to do with cultureand identity than with just plain fear of anything different.. Well, that was uncalled for and completely unjustified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Well, that was uncalled for and completely unjustified. The way I see it, what is totally unjustified is hiding one's intolerence behind the flag then claiming that our identity involves becoming American. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Would i call it a crises, probly not, but it is concerning that Canadians really have very little that identifies them as Canadian. And slowly we are lossing those very things that are "Canadian or white christain", Canadian identity crisis (lousy word) has been around for decades. The first line of your link say exactly the same. Hell, our flag has been around since 1964. That is not long. Should we be surprised? As for the white christian thing, well , good ! I dont need white nor christians telling me nor planning the culture of canada. But I will ask as I have leafless (who wont answer) ,what are we loosing that are canadian or white culture? I have no problem with anyone wishing to live in Canada , all are welcome, but be prepared to adapt to our culture...as they would expect us to adapt to thier culture. There is a contradiction here as I am sure you now see. But that aside, whatever the culture we have can only be enhanced all the while being assimilated by newcomers to this country, in time that is. We can look at sport culture for instance and see that many kids playing pro hockey come from immigrant parents. Why? Because kids have a need to fit in and do what the neighbourhood kids do. Thats assimilation in most respects. We suck at soccer...er footie for the enthusiasts and I wonder why? Because to play it is not entirely our culture, not to mention we dont have the infrastructure for it.(not to mention the weather) -The mounty hat, and military helmet thing.-Prayer in schools ( religion in general) -Christmas holidays being renamed. ( again a religion thing) - Americanization of Canadians - The Queen Lets look at these symbols above. Mountie hat....still have it. Pretty much every white mountie I see at Pearson is wearing a cap. Prayer in schools. Good, unless of course we want two hours to cover all the religions. Christmas holidays....quite drinking the O'Reillly kool-aid. It never was nor will be renamed. Americanization of Canucks- cant help that, but we will always retain our diffs. The Queen- she aint going anywhere soon, but I suspect we will do the same as Australia did, just it will take awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The way I see it, what is totally unjustified is hiding one's intolerence behind the flag then claiming that our identity involves becoming American. Could you point out exactly where Army Guy hid any intolerance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 The only danger coming from is the one associated with laughing to much.But don't believe that it is about people having too much of an accent to his liking. People have to hate as much as he does, be as homophobic as he is, share not only is religious but his perverted sense of it. He hasn't mentioned it yet, but I would be surprised one bit if he had a problem with people being of a different skin color. Pathetic and laughable. And it always comes giftwrapped in patriotic nationalism! It seems the people who make the loudest appeals to some sort of Canadian pride, want to define who is and who is not a Canadian; and it never surprises me that everyone other than the descendents of United Empire Loyalists is not a real Canadian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Could you point out exactly where Army Guy hid any intolerance? You got me there. I sure cannot claim the intolerence is hidden when the message is "adopt white culture and accept Christian prayer in school if you want to become Canadian". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Would i call it a crises, probly not, but it is concerning that Canadians really have very little that identifies them as Canadian. Balderdash...we have the CBC, "eh", and beer that actually works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Would i call it a crises, probly not, but it is concerning that Canadians really have very little that identifies them as Canadian. And slowly we are lossing those very things that are "Canadian or white christain", You want to know what historically defines a Canadian? One thing -- when the 13 British colonies to our south revolted against King George III in 1776, the four thinly populated colonies up here refused to join the revolt and remained loyal British subjects. We were joined by thousands of loyalist refugees from the American colonies, who mainly migrated to Upper Canada and pretty much ran things here for 150 years! Because Lower Canada had a majority French population, language and judicial concessions had to be granted to prevent them from joining the American Revolution. As a side note, back when I was in grade 8 history class, our teacher proclaimed that the reason why were having all of this trouble with Quebec was because we generously allowed them to keep their language after the French colonial government was defeated. Our teacher, either wasn't aware or deliberately omitted the fact that the British at the time, didn't feel they had enough power to force a cultural transformation on the French, or load them all on boats like the Acadians and send them in to exile. Land concessions were offered to the Iroquois to induce them to fight with the British Crown against the rebellious colonial governors, and after the Revolution, deals were made with western Indian Tribes because of the fear that the Americans would try to push north and take the western provinces and territories. So the Loyalists who defined Canadian identity in most of Canada up till the 1960's, never had complete control of the country at any time during our history; they only had the illusion of power because the Indians could usually be ignored and the Quebecois were mostly quiet and complacent. It wasn't just immigration that made this fantasy fall apart; the Quiet Revolution and increasing demands for powersharing from Quebec made some sort of Trudeau-style deal inevitable! I have no problem with anyone wishing to live in Canada , all are welcome, but be prepared to adapt to our culture...as they would expect us to adapt to thier culture. -The mounty hat, and military helmet thing. -Prayer in schools ( religion in general) -Christmas holidays being renamed. ( again a religion thing) - Americanization of Canadians - The Queen Canada in crises Canadian indentity identity crises From your first link: It could be argued that the change of the flag, from the very traditional-looking Red Ensign (which had a Union Jack in the upper-left corner), to the current flag -- which some critics at the time saw as Liberal Party banner -- signified something like a "regime-change." The main visual change could be seen as being from the royal scarlet of the Red Ensign to a new, plastic-looking red, with a too-stylized, abstract-looking Maple Leaf. It could be perceived as signifying a farewell – or perhaps rather a good riddance -- to traditional Canada, and implying that a new Canada, a "Canada Two" was now in the making. When I was young, there were anglo rabble-rousers who declared we had to be willing to fight a civil war like the Americans did, and impose the Red Ensign and the English language on Quebec. The only people spoiling for a fight over the issue were old cranks who were too old to fight anyway, and have all died off over the last 30 or 40 years! Your second link can't cite many specific examples of Canadian culture beyond the Group of Seven painters. Were Tom Thompson's paintings that great? I always thought they looked like crap compared to the works of the Dutch masters; but then, I don't know much about art anyway! That article is written by someone, like myself, who grew up on the border and was envious of the ramped up patriotism we witnessed every time we crossed the border to the U.S. side. I used to identify somewhat with this perspective and wish that we had a real Canadian identity and waved the flag like the Americans do; but after witnessing two undeclared wars that a majority of Americans got sucked in to supporting because they uncritically accepted the emotional appeal of flag-waving patriotic fervour, I am feeling a whole lot better about our lukewarm patriotism and nationalism we have in this country! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 .... I used to identify somewhat with this perspective and wish that we had a real Canadian identity and waved the flag like the Americans do; but after witnessing two undeclared wars that a majority of Americans got sucked in to supporting because they uncritically accepted the emotional appeal of flag-waving patriotic fervour, I am feeling a whole lot better about our lukewarm patriotism and nationalism we have in this country! Of course...without the Americans as foils, there would be no way to continue this identity neurosis at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Of course...without the Americans as foils, there would be no way to continue this identity neurosis at all. Glad you noticed! These are the modern examples of how people got sucked in to marching off to war for dubious reasons. If you read about WWI, the European nations did the same thing, and just like Iraq, the leaders disguised their real motives that were based on competition for resources and control of colonies, with appeals to British, French, and German patriotism. So I no longer feel that identity neurosis anymore! Canadian nationalism has traditionally been based on anti-Americanism because it was the decision to remain British colonies that gave us an identity in the first place. But since WWII, Canada has kept moving closer and closer into the U.S. orbit because of our own self-interests, and instead of whining about our economy becoming linked to the U.S. economy and trying to stop American culture, we should recognize that we are going to have a lot more similarities than differences with the Americans. Maybe our identity is being like the Americans except a little more rational and less gulible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 You got me there. I sure cannot claim the intolerence is hidden when the message is "adopt white culture and accept Christian prayer in school if you want to become Canadian". Where did he say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Glad you noticed! These are the modern examples of how people got sucked in to marching off to war for dubious reasons. If you read about WWI, the European nations did the same thing, and just like Iraq, the leaders disguised their real motives that were based on competition for resources and control of colonies, with appeals to British, French, and German patriotism. You may wish to review Canadian history wrt WWI....something about Vimy Ridge. So I no longer feel that identity neurosis anymore! Canadian nationalism has traditionally been based on anti-Americanism because it was the decision to remain British colonies that gave us an identity in the first place. But yet, the Americans and Mexicans do not have this neurosis. How come? But since WWII, Canada has kept moving closer and closer into the U.S. orbit because of our own self-interests, and instead of whining about our economy becoming linked to the U.S. economy and trying to stop American culture, we should recognize that we are going to have a lot more similarities than differences with the Americans. Maybe our identity is being like the Americans except a little more rational and less gulible! Hence Maple Leaf flags on backpacks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 (...)it is concerning that Canadians really have very little that identifies them as Canadian. And slowly we are lossing those very things that are "Canadian or white christain", I have no problem with anyone wishing to live in Canada , all are welcome, but be prepared to adapt to our culture...as they would expect us to adapt to thier culture. Looks pretty clear to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 (edited) Looks pretty clear to me. I still don't see what you do. I think that by those words he meant that the dominant culture has been waning away; a culture created by a population that is predominantly white and Christian. Asking that people integrate into the existing, dominant culture is nowhere even close to racism, nor does it demonstrate intolerance, both of which you accused him of harbouring. Edited June 25, 2008 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I still don't see what you do. I think that by those words he meant that the dominant culture has been waning away; a culture created by a population that is predominantly white and Christian. Asking that people integrate into the existing, dominant culture is nowhere even close to racism, nor does it demonstrate intolerance, both of which you accused him of harbouring. Demanding that people from other faiths join in school prayer is intolerant, no matter how you put it. And BTW, I haven't accused AG of being a racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Canadian culture (of the English-speaking variety) is waning away... Must be all those Canadian-made TV programs full of white faces. Hockey Nights in Canada. Canadian beer. All those statutory holidays based on Christian traditions. The RCMP agents waering their traditional uniforms. If there is anything posing a threat to Canadian culture (of the English-speaking variety), it is not Lttle Mosque on the Prairie, souvlakis and soccer... It would be The Incredible Hulk, McDonald's and Monday Night Football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Demanding that people from other faiths join in school prayer is intolerant, no matter how you put it. And BTW, I haven't accused AG of being a racist. I stand corrected on the racism point; my apologies. Regardless, where's the intolerance in asking people of other faiths to join in school prayer? I know of ceremonies where the prayers of multiple faiths are joined in by all; in fact, it's becoming rather common. Of course, as guyser said, it would take up two hours of the school day to get all the faiths in; so it might be silly to suggest prayer in school, but it isn't automatically intolerant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 so it might be silly to suggest prayer in school, but it isn't automatically intolerant. No but one can make an argument it is exclusive. And that should not ever happen in a public schools. Whatever religion one holds they should hold privately. (not in the sense they shouldnt let on ) The Catholics, Protestants, Wiccans,Muslims,Mormons,ALDS's, all pay the same school taxes. Should all pray to one the group? No, and thats why religion should not be in schools other than as a teaching lesson. It actually would be easy to include the rest, other than the fact the school year would need to be extended. We could have Christmas pageants, but then I want a Diwali festival pageant (have you seen the sweets they eat-yummy!) , I want my kid to fast for a day and a meal prepped by the school at the end of the day, I want the black robes of wiccan pageants (admitting my ignorance here as I know not what they do) I want the hideous frocks of the Mormons for all..... And of course I want none of that. We simply need to teach in schools, not favour one religion over another. We achieve that by ridding ourselves of christianity in schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I stand corrected on the racism point; my apologies. Regardless, where's the intolerance in asking people of other faiths to join in school prayer? I know of ceremonies where the prayers of multiple faiths are joined in by all; in fact, it's becoming rather common. Of course, as guyser said, it would take up two hours of the school day to get all the faiths in; so it might be silly to suggest prayer in school, but it isn't automatically intolerant. Combined with the lament about the supposed loss of a Christian culture, the demand that newcomers "adapt" to prayer in school makes it clear that what is being talked about is not a generic "multi-faith prayer" (which has no place in a faith-neutral public school, anyway) but Christian prayer, at the exclusion of others. That's intolerence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 No but one can make an argument it is exclusive. And that should not ever happen in a public schools. Whatever religion one holds they should hold privately. (not in the sense they shouldnt let on ) The Catholics, Protestants, Wiccans,Muslims,Mormons,ALDS's, all pay the same school taxes. Should all pray to one the group? No, and thats why religion should not be in schools other than as a teaching lesson. It actually would be easy to include the rest, other than the fact the school year would need to be extended. We could have Christmas pageants, but then I want a Diwali festival pageant (have you seen the sweets they eat-yummy!) , I want my kid to fast for a day and a meal prepped by the school at the end of the day, I want the black robes of wiccan pageants (admitting my ignorance here as I know not what they do) I want the hideous frocks of the Mormons for all..... And of course I want none of that. We simply need to teach in schools, not favour one religion over another. We achieve that by ridding ourselves of christianity in schools. Celebrations (including those with a religious connotation) have their place in the public schools in a diverse society. I for one want Christmas pageants to be there, and be called Christmas pageants. And the Diwali festival (among others). Not to say that children be made to engage in religious rituals, of course, but they should be exposed to the rich diversity present in their school community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 (edited) Maybe our identity is being like the Americans except a little more rational and less gulible! What an incredible incredibly naive statement to make. Canadians do not have the freedom to determine if we are in fact rational and less gullible. Do you realize that we are all state controlled puppets at the mercy of a dysfunctional corrupt government. Edited June 26, 2008 by Leafless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 What an incredible incredibly naive statement to make. Canadians do not have the freedom to determine if we are in fact rational and less gullible. Do you realize that we are all state controlled puppets at the mercy of a dysfunctional corrupt government. Please be patient with us. We are just starting to realize that the Earth is flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Newcomers to Canada should be expected to abide by the following rules: - live according to the rule of law - respect our democratic institutions - respect that our laws are founded on respect for the rights of all citizens, including minority rights and equality between men and women - respect that there is a separation between organized religion and the State - respect that we have a Monarchy, and that this ever changes it will be through the democratic process - make at least a reasonable effort to learn one of our two official languages (or even both) They should expect that Christian symbols and traditions are behind some of these country most important holidays, but also that one does not have to be Christian to be Canadian. For the rest... While newcomers would be missing good opportunities to expend their horizons by note getting acquinted with some of this country's tradition, whether they do it or not is their own business. What language they sspeak at home, or with their friends, or in internal communications on their workplace, is their own business. Who they love is their own business. The form in which they worship G-d is their own business. The food they eat, the entertainment theu prefer, the sports they like and or/play is their own business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafless Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Newcomers to Canada should be expected to abide by the following rules:- live according to the rule of law - respect our democratic institutions - respect that our laws are founded on respect for the rights of all citizens, including minority rights and equality between men and women - respect that there is a separation between organized religion and the State - respect that we have a Monarchy, and that this ever changes it will be through the democratic process - make at least a reasonable effort to learn one of our two official languages (or even both) They should expect that Christian symbols and traditions are behind some of these country most important holidays, but also that one does not have to be Christian to be Canadian. For the rest... While newcomers would be missing good opportunities to expend their horizons by note getting acquinted with some of this country's tradition, whether they do it or not is their own business. What language they sspeak at home, or with their friends, or in internal communications on their workplace, is their own business. Who they love is their own business. The form in which they worship G-d is their own business. The food they eat, the entertainment theu prefer, the sports they like and or/play is their own business. Finally you realize integration requires a comprehensive Canadian definiton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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