General Motors closing truck plant

[madmax]

Corporations also give the workers jobs in the first place, they both need each other, a corporation worth it's salt will not screw over workers

A corporation will screw workers, governments, other corporations and suppliers whenever necessary or expedient. Any corporation seeing greener pastures will pick up and leave and screw anyone associated with them, if that is the decision.

I have sat at the boardroom and listened to corporations announce who they are going to F*&% over, and who they not going to screw, because they need them in their new location. I have watched the hot potato passed between Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and CAMI, as a (Tier One/Tier Two Supplier) decided they were going to stick it to "some" of the above & the government and the Salaried Staff, while closing their most profitable facility which was located in Ontario.

IF it is possible, and profitable it will be done.

Corporations don't give a rats ass about the workers, infact, many of the decisions are made in foreign countries and the consideration of the workforce is not a component of the decision making.

Companies buy other companies for market share, only to close down a profitable establishment with juicy contracts.

The CAW workers, may pull out a Pyrrhic.

You vision of corporatations is very altruistic, and somewhat remeniscint of the smaller family run companies. Business decisions are not for the faint of heart, nor guided by goodwill.

The CAW workers, have nothing to lose. I talk to workers/managers from the Asian Transplants, and they are not interested in seeing the Autosector leave Ontario, it isn't good for them either. Not that they don't like seeing GM suffering, they know what is going on industrially in Ontario.

All Asians manufacturers have scaled back large truck production, and GM is no different.

Good luck to the CAW members they are going to need it.

Edited June 10, 2008 by madmax

[TOhasCLASS]

Bottom line .....

If the fat lazy corporate exec's at GM and the US auto makers (who are supposed to be planning long term) had used their brains and mustered up some b@lls over the past 10 years they would have had flex fuel trucks or hybred trucks ready to roll off the assembly line years ago .... instead they sit around cow towing to big oil money and their propaganda machine while their only concern is making sure they count their million dollar bonus' for less than stellar ROI's.

Fact - We knew we needed a new fuel source in the 70's

Fact - Fuel can be made out of scrap organic waste not impacting food supply

Fact - A drop from using 90% gas to 50% and 50% meth/ethonol would force the hand of big oil to lower their prices

While I do agree that line workers have a less than stellar job their wages need to be fair and brought in line with reality ..... however reality shows that execs / shareholders would pocket any savings or pay for their mismanagement of the business before re-investing in the future good of the business unless absolutely forced to by extreme market conditions.

If done right their is enough for everyone however it takes too much work, sacrifice, creativity for the fat lazy US exec's to chart the course.

[madmax]

Mexico is like a Third world country and there's rich and poor and the more aren't educated. I know of a US company down there the plants in the US and Canada make 150 units per day..... in Mexico now there 30!

I have seen good and absymal products and supplies from Mexico. Mexico will not be able to compete even with the lower wages against the better skilled and lower wages in China.

Many supplies from Mexico, had to be hand sorted in Ontario, before going to GM because they were on CS1 and CS2. Sometimes by outside contractors, sometime directly in the GM plants.

Regardless I don't buy into the Mexican Fear mongering. They have their own problems, unrelated to the problems facing the people of Oshawa.

[bush_cheney2004]

I have seen good and absymal products and supplies from Mexico.

Ditto Canada or the USA....very capable of producing crap. In a previous life, I would bludgeon suppliers with the QS-9000 parts qualification process, and union shops were consistently less agile and flexible.

Eventually we decided that lower labor costs in Mexico or China were preferred as long as they could be trained to produce equal or less scrap.

[Wild Bill]

You equate the products conceived to create artificial wants in an effort to justify the parasitic existence of these Godly corporations with the fulfillment of actually (human) needs.

How about working out in a corporative manner with the actual assembly line workers a plan to build a vehicle that people actually need? Of course you can always wait for the General Motors God to build one and hope that it is the one actually needed...

Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you asking me as an individual to campaign against GM and the auto corporations?

If it's rhetorical then hey, I'll cheer you on. If it's a request of me and my time then I'll have to politely beg off. I'm too old and fat and busy to become a crusader for someone ELSE's cause! I have a large number of rock and roll tube amps that need to be fixed and returned, so that their owners can keep the dreaded rap and ABBA goblins at bay.

[noahbody]

Fact - We knew we needed a new fuel source in the 70's

Is that because the earth was going to be covered with ice?

[bush_cheney2004]

....I have a large number of rock and roll tube amps that need to be fixed and returned, so that their owners can keep the dreaded rap and ABBA goblins at bay.

A much better plan than wasting time supporting dinosaurs that build new dinosaurs, unless it's a Jadis Defy 7 !

[lost&outofcontrol]

Is that a rhetorical question? Or are you asking me as an individual to campaign against GM and the auto corporations?

If it's rhetorical then hey, I'll cheer you on. If it's a request of me and my time then I'll have to politely beg off. I'm too old and fat and busy to become a crusader for someone ELSE's cause! I have a large number of rock and roll tube amps that need to be fixed and returned, so that their owners can keep the dreaded rap and ABBA goblins at bay.

Can't someone else do it? If you can't be bothered to participate [gain practical knowledge] in a solution then why pass judgment? Production to meet actual needs instead of corporations’ is everyone’s problem. Their [workers] cause is your cause.

To blame "lazy" workers for the sorry state of General Motors or any other corporation is shortsighted. Should workers stop demanding better work condition or better wages?

I have to say it is a good thing we are creatures of necessity else we would still be living in the stone age. Seems as tough you need God in one form or another to live your life. Whether it is God, General Motors or market forces, we still bow down before our own creations.

Pity

Edited June 10, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[madmax]

Ditto Canada or the USA....very capable of producing crap. In a previous life, I would bludgeon suppliers with the QS-9000 parts qualification process, and union shops were consistently less agile and flexible.

The closure of the Oshawa plant is not a quality issue. The exodus of manufacturing jobs in Ontario cannot be blamed upon the Union, non union worker or the Ontario suppliers of parts, who supply to all manufacturers..

Companies are citing other reasons to leave.

Not quality.

[Wild Bill]

Can't someone else do it? If you can't be bothered to participate [gain practical knowledge] in a solution then why pass judgment? Production to meet actual needs instead of corporations’ is everyone’s problem. Their [workers] cause is your cause.

To blame "lazy" workers for the sorry state of General Motors or any other corporation is shortsighted. Should workers stop demanding better work condition or better wages?

I have to say it is a good thing we are creatures of necessity else we would still be living in the stone age. Seems as tough you need God in one form or another to live your life. Whether it is God, General Motors or market forces, we still bow down before our own creations.

Pity

Where did I say boo about "lazy workers"? I wouldn't blame the workers at all!

General Motors is in trouble and closing plants because it stopped paying attention to the world of its customers and became introverted. While it may be true that Buzz Hargrove took it for granted that GM could afford his workers' wages and benefits it really doesn't matter.

GM never started to produce products that the market wanted and just kept rolling the same old stuff. We've all been watching gasoline get pricier and pricier for years. Now people are turning to alternative types of vehicles in droves and GM is scrambling to catch up.

Why wasn't GM the first to introduce a Prius type hybrid? Or Ford or Chrysler, for that matter.

No, what happened is that a management team spent all its time impressing each other while the world was passing them by. If they don't get their act together fast there will be more and more plant closings. The union could offer to match Mexican or even Chinese wage scales and it wouldn't matter. Who cares? The market wants gas misers, not gas guzzlers, period!

[bush_cheney2004]

The closure of the Oshawa plant is not a quality issue. The exodus of manufacturing jobs in Ontario cannot be blamed upon the Union, non union worker or the Ontario suppliers of parts, who supply to all manufacturers..

Roger that, but I just wanted to disabuse anyone of the notion that automotive production in Canada or the USA is not without defects, scrap, etc. compared to Mexico or China. In many cases, the newer plants have benefitted from the lessons learned in North America and Japan (e.g. Toyota Production System).

Sorting defects does not a quality system make.

[madmax]

GM never started to produce products that the market wanted and just kept rolling the same old stuff.

<SNIP>

more and more plant closings. The union could offer to match Mexican or even Chinese wage scales and it wouldn't matter. Who cares? The market wants gas misers, not gas guzzlers, period!

I think you hit the nail on the head with that post in its entirety.

Edited June 10, 2008 by madmax

[madmax]

Roger that, but I just wanted to disabuse anyone of the notion that automotive production in Canada or the USA is not without defects, scrap, etc. compared to Mexico or China. In many cases, the newer plants have benefitted from the lessons learned in North America and Japan (e.g. Toyota Production System).

Yes, that is true.

Sorting defects does not a quality system make.

It certainly doesn't. Nor can you make less scrap if the dies from offshore are tainted. The parts aren't sorted, but weighed in the scrap bins, if you can make anything at all. Garbage in Garbage out.

That said, I think if you look at the posting of wild Bill, he highlights some of the obvious failures of GM. Both the real and the publics perception of the truth.

Edited June 10, 2008 by madmax

[bush_cheney2004]

....That said, I think if you look at the posting of wild Bill, he highlights some of the obvious failures of GM. Both the real and the publics perception of the truth.

I think that such a premise is misguided, particulary with respect to the "public". GM has been around for a very long time, and it has made choices consistent with corporate goals. Execution over time may have included mistakes, but they were conscious ones, with huge expansions into other markets and buying other makes/marks included (i.e. globalization). Last I checked, GM's non-North American production is still profitable.

Did Canadians report that GM was making a mistake when plants such as Oshawa were built? Mistake when American autoworker jobs were exported to Canada? Did Oshawa workers refuse to build gas guzzling SUVs over many years?

No....the truth is that Oshawa would be perfectly happy to continue the manufacture of the much hated but highly profitable "light" truck/SUV if the market could still move them.

Edited June 10, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[madmax]

I think that such a premise is misguided, particulary with respect to the "public".

ok

GM has been around for a very long time, and it has made choices consistent with corporate goals.

No Argument here.

Execution over time may have included mistakes, but they were conscious ones, with huge expansions into other markets and buying other makes/marks included (i.e. globalization).

I like where you are going with this.

Last I checked, GM's non-North American production is still profitable.

SSSHHHH.

Did Canadians report that GM was making a mistake when plants such as Oshawa were built?

No, nor would they if GM were to open a new plant in Canada as opposed to closing one.

Mistake when American autoworker jobs were exported to Canada?

There was Auto Production in Ontario long before Oshawa, and the Ohio, Michigan, Corridor has been seemless and many people in these corridors on the US side are facing and have faced the same fate as GM Oshawa. No plants that I know of were shut down to assist opening Canadian Auto Manufacturing, including the Oshawa operation. Infact, the Auto Pact of that era, helped increase productivity on both sides of the border through longer production runs. Also, when these plants were built and running at production levels typical for the era, the Canadian Dollar often near par or Higher then the US dollar.

Did Oshawa workers refuse to build gas guzzling SUVs over many years?

Come on, everyone was/is building SUVs and GM was successful in profiting off of their product. The consumer was making the choice, no different then present. Honda Workers in Alliston did not refuse to build trucks, because the market demanded such. Nissan workers did not refuse to build Titan trucks in the US. Yet, they wer caught in the same pattern, but farmed their Truck Production to Chrysler who farmed it to Mexico.

I don't sit here and think, oh it's only poor GM and GM employees in Oshawa facing the corporate structure you have soundly outlined and to which I concurr on many of those points of interest.

No....the truth is that Oshawa would be perfectly happy to continue the manufacture of the much hated but highly profitable "light" truck/SUV if the market could still move them.

Yes, if someone would purchase them today or the market changed again. These were very popular vehicles for people to "hate". People started hating Mini Vans and soon people will "hate" Smart Cars.

That said, Oshawa is capable of producing a quality product of any model or make, regardless of GMs corporate "conscious" decision close down the facility.

In the meantime there is this problem that makes the move more political.

NDP Leader Howard Hampton was scathing.

"GM is one of the largest corporations in the world. No government should be handing GM $100 million, $150 million, $200 million, $235 million without getting job guarantees," he said.

Just what was Ontario Tax Payers monies handed to GM for again?

Technology?

To be used to build what?

Answer:

1) a New Plant in another country?

2) A hybrid vehicle in another country?

3) Don't know the government just handed them some cash.

Once again, the workers are made to look bad because of the actions of the Liberals.

And this trend of Liberals handing out monies to large corporations who relocate shortly after has been occurring on a regular basis amongst industries throughout Ontario, and the government is too damn stupid to get it. And the taxpayer is getting shafted, and the workers too. This does no one any good.

So when you speak of Hybrid Cars, we have 235 Million dollars on Ontarians TAX monies handed to GM in the past 18 months & therefore they damn well should build it here.

In the meantime I have a list of companies that took the money and ran and screwed the entire staff and workers.

I spent alot of time last year with Grant Thorton, BBK and many receivers.

You are correct when you say that GMs North American operations were profitable. However, I would be hestitant to have bet on the profitability for the current year, and even now, I stopped into the retail dealers, and they are saying (here in southern Ontario) the lot has gone quiet at present.

Still I find the Auto Sector, (Regardless of the press coverage) in far better shape then many other Industries which have closed since the announcement at GM and again, not a peep, in the media.

As long as people require an Automobile they will be built.

[bush_cheney2004]

There was Auto Production in Ontario long before Oshawa, and the Ohio, Michigan, Corridor has been seemless and many people in these corridors on the US side are facing and have faced the same fate as GM Oshawa. No plants that I know of were shut down to assist opening Canadian Auto Manufacturing, including the Oshawa operation. Infact, the Auto Pact of that era, helped increase productivity on both sides of the border through longer production runs.

Sorry, I'm not feeling it. The Americans did bitch when this scheme went down:

....After the Liberal government of Lester Pearson came to power in 1963, the government decided to expand the program to all autos and parts, a plan that would dramatically boost production by Canadian parts and vehicle producers, most of it for export to the United States. This raised the ire of a number of American parts producers, and a petition brought under U.S. trade law by the Modine Manufacturing Company of Racine, Wisconsin...

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;j...ocId=5002425233

And that's fine....but what happened to expand production runs in Canada's beleagured auto industry no longer applies if it can be done for less cost somewhere else. The subsequent FTA/NAFTA arrangements do not trump basic math.

I don't sit here and think, oh it's only poor GM and GM employees in Oshawa facing the corporate structure you have soundly outlined and to which I concurr on many of those points of interest.

Agreed....whining accomplishes little.

Yes, if someone would purchase them today or the market changed again. These were very popular vehicles for people to "hate". People started hating Mini Vans and soon people will "hate" Smart Cars.

Good...then perhaps we agree that the demarcation in time for GM's "failure" is arbitrary at best. As a consumer, the worst time for me was the 1970's, both for product quality and design.

That said, Oshawa is capable of producing a quality product of any model or make, regardless of GMs corporate "conscious" decision close down the facility.

Of course, but you know very well that physical plant changes and retooling is not trivial. You also know that the lead time for new models is years, not months.

In the meantime there is this problem that makes the move more political.

Just what was Ontario Tax Payers monies handed to GM for again?

Well, no sympathy there. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

[peter_puck]

Bottom line .....

Fact - We knew we needed a new fuel source in the 70's

Fact - Fuel can be made out of scrap organic waste not impacting food supply

Fact - A drop from using 90% gas to 50% and 50% meth/ethonol would force the hand of big oil to lower their prices

Fact - "Big oil" does not control the oil prices, the guy driving the Hummer and the guy in China do

Fact - "Scrap organic waste" is not going to produce enough energy to fuel much of our vehicle fleet (although it is noble idea)

Fact - other sources of ethanol need about as much fossil fuels to create them as they save. (this is true of the West, there our sugar cane in the tropics produces net energy)

[peter_puck]

To blame "lazy" workers for the sorry state of General Motors or any other corporation is shortsighted. Should workers stop demanding better work condition or better wages?

Pity

I know lots of workers at big three plants.

GM workers are paid a lot more in wages and benefits than workers Honda. In addition, they their jobs are more secure than many tenured university professors. It is hard to fire them no matter what the do. Some examples.

Guy punches his supervisor in the face (among other things) gets his job back

Guy hangs his supervisor over the side of a factory - gets his job back (supervisor quits)

Guy who is supposed to be watching an automated machine is found passed out drunk, he gets his full pay while in rehab (the dammage to the machine and lost production was over 100k

Guy smashes a co-worker in the face with a hammer for refusing to repair something for him on company time

-gets his job back

Guy phones in sick day after day, presenting doctors notes. Company calls to confirm one of the notes and the sick guy answers his doctors phone while working on the line - gets his job back

Cops set up a ride program stop outside a local big three auto plant at closing time because of accidents caused by people leaving the factory drunk

Chrysler paid benefits to an employee who was injured at work because WSIB refused to (because he was high on drugs and horsing around when he got hurt)

One Ford factory worked under the honor system - no one had to clock in. Many people with non-line jobs spent most of their shift at the bar (they just came back to check in with their supervisors)

(the honor system was cancelled shortly after the RIDE program set up shop outside the plant)

One local big three plant use to spend a small fortune paying to fix holes that employees kept cutting in the fense to make it to the bar without having to go through security. Lots of equipment left this way as well. Nobody lost their job over it.

Guy arrested for selling drugs IN the factory, keeps his job.

Guy caught stealing TWICE, keeps his job after a 3 month suspension (they caught him the second time a few days after the first.

Some factories in the states have had to close during major sports events because not enough workers woulds show up.

In another factory, there are employees that spend most of their day watching cable television because of work rules. The union made the company build a lounge for them because they were so bored not working.

I could go on and on.

Most autoworkers are serious and hard working, but the fact that it is really difficult to fire someone who is not with the program. In most cases, they get a couple months off WITH PAY, and then come back.

How do you expect one of these plants to compete with Honda ??

[bush_cheney2004]

....Most autoworkers are serious and hard working, but the fact that it is really difficult to fire someone who is not with the program. In most cases, they get a couple months off WITH PAY, and then come back.

How do you expect one of these plants to compete with Honda ??

And it's not just the auto plants...unionized labor leads to a system of repressing productivity at the peer level, because exceeding piece rates makes the slackers look bad and reduces the opportunity for the union's holy grail....OVERTIME!

[blueblood]

Please compare the cost of living to see how much more of that $20/hr you get to keep in the end.

Who are these mythical corporations with godly powers? I would like to meet with one if at all possible, I have a few grievances. I picture General Motors as some old coot à-la Howard Hughes. I bet Miss Wall-Mart is the female equivalent of Mr. Burns.

Having power over us mere mortal beings, the abilities of corporations as non beings (fictional entities) are stunning. Bow down to the new Gods!

I guess eating a shit sandwich is better than not eating at all then; it is eating after all.

I'll wager that the cost of living in Toronto is the same if not higher than Calgary or Edmonton. I don't think the timmies worker gets paid 20 bucks an hour in T.O.

Go without food for two weeks and that shit sandwich is going to start looking pretty good.

[blueblood]

A corporation will screw workers, governments, other corporations and suppliers whenever necessary or expedient. Any corporation seeing greener pastures will pick up and leave and screw anyone associated with them, if that is the decision.

I have sat at the boardroom and listened to corporations announce who they are going to F*&% over, and who they not going to screw, because they need them in their new location. I have watched the hot potato passed between Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and CAMI, as a (Tier One/Tier Two Supplier) decided they were going to stick it to "some" of the above & the government and the Salaried Staff, while closing their most profitable facility which was located in Ontario.

IF it is possible, and profitable it will be done.

Corporations don't give a rats ass about the workers, infact, many of the decisions are made in foreign countries and the consideration of the workforce is not a component of the decision making.

Companies buy other companies for market share, only to close down a profitable establishment with juicy contracts.

The CAW workers, may pull out a Pyrrhic.

You vision of corporatations is very altruistic, and somewhat remeniscint of the smaller family run companies. Business decisions are not for the faint of heart, nor guided by goodwill.

The CAW workers, have nothing to lose. I talk to workers/managers from the Asian Transplants, and they are not interested in seeing the Autosector leave Ontario, it isn't good for them either. Not that they don't like seeing GM suffering, they know what is going on industrially in Ontario.

All Asians manufacturers have scaled back large truck production, and GM is no different.

Good luck to the CAW members they are going to need it.

Of course corporations care about their workers, if their workers don't get compensated "fairly" for their labour they can tell the corporation to go piss up a rope.

Employees for Monsanto and Bayer crop science have very cushy jobs, and no unions. They get company trucks, cell phones, and expense accounts, health insurance, and a healthy wage all without unions. They know a happy worker is a productive worker. Mind you these corporations can easily afford to do all of this, but in a skilled labour market like Canada, they have to dole out the cash. The workers also know that if they don't perform and cost their company too much money, they are toast.

[Bryan]

Really? What make and model?

VW Jetta.

[TOhasCLASS]

Fact - "Big oil" does not control the oil prices, the guy driving the Hummer and the guy in China do

Fact - "Scrap organic waste" is not going to produce enough energy to fuel much of our vehicle fleet (although it is noble idea)

Fact - other sources of ethanol need about as much fossil fuels to create them as they save. (this is true of the West, there our sugar cane in the tropics produces net energy)

Reality - Big oil controls the prices through artificial supply and demand problems ... 1. not building new refineries and controling available consumption 2. investing hundreds of millions of dollars in propagana against alternative sources of fuel and influencing auto makers to keep making 100% fuel vehicles in NA 3. dumping hundreds of millions more into lobbiest that influence government decisions

Reality - Scrap organic waste can produce methenol and is abundance around the world ... anything that is organic can be turned into methenol .... 1. The ocean is a limitless farm that could grown organic material and be harvested 2. A corn field produces more waste than food (stocks & husks etc.) 3. human waste can be turned into methenol. Problem is Science is fighting against paid shills of the oil company to quiet their voices and projects ... money talks

Ethanol is old technology .... waste matter to methanol is the bridge to get us to solar/electric (limitless) .... Big oil squashes these options by influencing the auto makers and government to keep oil around. If you think all the big oil are looking to improve society with new found energy sources you are living in a dream world.

[madmax]

Sorry, I'm not feeling it. The Americans did bitch when this scheme went down:

And that's fine....but what happened to expand production runs in Canada's beleagured auto industry no longer applies if it can be done for less cost somewhere else. The subsequent FTA/NAFTA arrangements do not trump basic math.

Agreed....whining accomplishes little.

That is correct.

Good...then perhaps we agree that the demarcation in time for GM's "failure" is arbitrary at best. As a consumer, the worst time for me was the 1970's, both for product quality and design.

That goes across the board of all makes at a time when the Big Three were the Big Three and the Japanese Cars were.. problematic in a different way. My roots are in Autosales during this period. But my heart beats with Mopar, even though I have none in my driveway.

GM is still GM and it is going to take alot more time before they come around.

Of course, but you know very well that physical plant changes and retooling is not trivial. You also know that the lead time for new models is years, not months.

Yes, any Ideas what GM has been doing...... ? And yes, tooling changes are not trivial, nor insurmountable when there is a plan enacted. It is not like the money isn't there. The quality, the production, and the profit can all be achieved in the same fashion as Honda and Toyota retool and offer newer/different model lines.

Well, no sympathy there. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

That is why we have a ballot box. I didn't vote for the Liberals last time over this very issue of corporate handouts under the guise of technological grants.

Edited June 11, 2008 by madmax

[lost&outofcontrol]

I know lots of workers at big three plants.

[rambling and a lot of whitespace]

This never happens in the private sector.

Go without food for two weeks and that shit sandwich is going to start looking pretty good.

And you don't see anything wrong with that? Did you jump over the part about corporations divine rights and powers to rule over us as fictional entities. Does GM create jobs? If it does I would love to talk to him/her.