Native Canadians in Canada

[HisSelf]

Actually that commercial is all about empathizing with other cultures. As DM will likely tell you, "going to work" is part of white culture, not the native culture. So there is no real slur. It's a statement of profound understanding. Maybe even a joke. So lighten up.

[DogOnPorch]

I am beginning to understand why M.Dancer so often resorts to name calling.

That makes zero sense. Perhaps you should add me to your ignore list as well. Eventually you'll be left with only opinions you agree with. What a perfect world...

--------------------------------------

Here's Johnny!!

---The Shining

[DangerMouse]

That makes zero sense. Perhaps you should add me to your ignore list as well. Eventually you'll be left with only opinions you agree with. What a perfect world...

--------------------------------------

Here's Johnny!!

---The Shining

FUCK THE WHOLE GOD DMN WORKS OF YOU ASSHOLE REDNECK LOSERS!!!!!!!!!! go to other forums and its the same old crap--CANADA is shit pile full of dumb fuckin redneck losersssssssssssssss BUNCH of BACKWARDS ASSHOLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK YOU ALLLLLLLLLL!! IF YOU SKIN IS WHITE YOURE GOIN TO WIPE OYUT YOUR FAMILY FOR THE INSUANCE YOU LOSES!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[guyser]

FUCK THE WHOLE GOD DMN WORKS OF YOU ASSHOLE REDNECK LOSERS!!!!!!!!!! go to other forums and its the same old crap--CANADA is shit pile full of dumb fuckin redneck losersssssssssssssss BUNCH of BACKWARDS ASSHOLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK YOU ALLLLLLLLLL!! IF YOU SKIN IS WHITE YOURE GOIN TO WIPE OYUT YOUR FAMILY FOR THE INSUANCE YOU LOSES!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm...we may be redneck losers, but we are in control....and we can spell ....and we know where the caplock button is.

Bye Bye !

[Borg]

deleted - not worth it.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Borg

[DogOnPorch]

Anyone else getting PM's from Danger Mouse?

------------------------

It's dead, Jim.

---Star Trek

[Drea]

...likely tell you, "going to work" is part of white culture, not the native culture.

But we were all nomadic hunter/gathers until the advent of agriculture. The "people-who-came-here-allegedly-over-the-Bering-Strait-Land-Bridge-hundreds-of-thousands-of-years-ago" just had not evolved past this stage when Europeans arrived. The only way they could have possibly kept in this "unevolved" state would be to isolate them without contact from the rest of the "evolved" world. It would be utterly impossible.

I mean only the evolution of agriculture, not the intelligence or ingenuity of "people-who-came-here-allegedly-over-the-Bering-Strait-Land-Bridge-hundreds-of-thousands-of-years-ago" - they simply hadn't seen a need to change from hunter/gatherers to community dwelling farmers. Perhaps the amount of land and the lack of population contributed to this. In Europe (thousands of years earlier) competition for hunting grounds from various "clans" would have forced the population to adopt agriculture as a means of feeding a growing populace.

Hence "people-who-came-here-allegedly-over-the-Bering-Strait-Land-Bridge-hundreds-of-thousands-of-years-ago" never developed a "working" culture with a certain timetable.

[DogOnPorch]

But we were all nomadic hunter/gathers until the advent of agriculture. The "people-who-came-here-allegedly-over-the-Bering-Strait-Land-Bridge-hundreds-of-thousands-of-years-ago" just had not evolved past this stage when Europeans arrived. The only way they could have possibly kept in this "unevolved" state would be to isolate them without contact from the rest of the "evolved" world. It would be utterly impossible.

I mean only the evolution of agriculture, not the intelligence or ingenuity of "people-who-came-here-allegedly-over-the-Bering-Strait-Land-Bridge-hundreds-of-thousands-of-years-ago" - they simply hadn't seen a need to change from hunter/gatherers to community dwelling farmers. Perhaps the amount of land and the lack of population contributed to this. In Europe (thousands of years earlier) competition for hunting grounds from various "clans" would have forced the population to adopt agriculture as a means of feeding a growing populace.

Hence "people-who-came-here-allegedly-over-the-Bering-Strait-Land-Bridge-hundreds-of-thousands-of-years-ago" never developed a "working" culture with a certain timetable.

How about the Aztecs, Mayans, Toltecs, et al? They developed advanced bronze age civilizations with astronomy and engineering. They were really only about 1000 years 'behind' the crest of the 'wave of civilization'...and they had to walk a lot further than Canadian tribes. I suspect it was the poor climate and pressure from stronger tribes/nations from the south that kept some groups from leaving the late stone age. No doubt, that wouldn't be the only hypothesis, but I think it it holds more water than folks prefering to live a marginal hunter/gatherer existance by choice.

As for human's arrival in the Western hemisphere, it is generally thought that it happened during the last ice age when sea levels were lower rather than hundreds of thousands of years ago. There is some evidence to suggest this number might have been much earlier...some chance arrivals blown in from this place or that via the oceans. However, I believe there is a certain critcal level in terms of population numbers needed in order to provide a deep enough gene pool to last beyond a dozen generations or so. This is why science still tends to think we walked to North America in fairly large groups from Asia rather than random chance toe-holds blooming into full blown civilizations...like the Aztecs.

--------------------------------------------

We think that groups of between 30 and 40 early men would have settled in an area measuring a hundred square kilometers.

---Dr Richard Leakey (re: early man in Africa)

[M.Dancer]

I am beginning to understand why M.Dancer so often resorts to name calling.

I don't call anyone names.

[g_bambino]

Actually that commercial is all about empathizing with other cultures. As DM will likely tell you, "going to work" is part of white culture, not the native culture. So there is no real slur. It's a statement of profound understanding. Maybe even a joke. So lighten up.

"White culture"? I'm at work now, and, looking around me, I see a fair number of people of Asian ancestry. I'm not sure they'd be considered to be in the "white" category.

[noahbody]

"White culture"? I'm at work now, and, looking around me, I see a fair number of people of Asian ancestry. I'm not sure they'd be considered to be in the "white" category.

So there's no difference between white and wong?

[Drea]

So there's no difference between white and wong?

[HisSelf]

That makes zero sense. Perhaps you should add me to your ignore list as well. Eventually you'll be left with only opinions you agree with. What a perfect world...

--------------------------------------

Here's Johnny!!

---The Shining

You shoot yourself in the foot so often it's actually kind of entertaining to watch.

[DogOnPorch]

You shoot yourself in the foot so often it's actually kind of entertaining to watch.

My exact thoughts re: you. It's always fun to watch morally superior people talk down to the rest of us. What was the old news group term? Oh yeah..."Internet Jesus". Arrives and solves all our mortal problems by the pure will of his god-like intelligence. If you listen closely you can hear the flip-flop of his sandled feet. Thank goodness you're around to set us all straight...and don't let me keep you from your important work.

----------------------------------------------

Its really sad (valley girl)

Like my english teacher

Hes like... (valley girl)

Hes like mr. bu-fu (valley girl)

Were talking lord God king bu-fu (valley girl)

I am so sure

---Frank/Moon Unit Zappa

[HisSelf]

... solves all our mortal problems by the pure will of his god-like intelligence. If you listen closely you can hear the flip-flop of his sandled feet. Thank goodness you're around to set us all straight...and don't let me keep you from your important work.

----------------------------------------------

Its really sad (valley girl)

Like my english teacher

Hes like... (valley girl)

Hes like mr. bu-fu (valley girl)

Were talking lord God king bu-fu (valley girl)

I am so sure

---Frank/Moon Unit Zappa

I'm a little pimp with my hair gassed back, gonna pay the bill with a third party check...

Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention; Willie the Pimp - Hot Rats (Featuring Captain Beefheart); Ryko

[DogOnPorch]

Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention; Willie the Pimp - Hot Rats (Featuring Captain Beefheart); Ryko

Case in point...lol.

-----------------------------

Mee so solly.

---Krusty the Klown

[WIP]

How about the Aztecs, Mayans, Toltecs, et al? They developed advanced bronze age civilizations with astronomy and engineering. They were really only about 1000 years 'behind' the crest of the 'wave of civilization'...and they had to walk a lot further than Canadian tribes. I suspect it was the poor climate and pressure from stronger tribes/nations from the south that kept some groups from leaving the late stone age. No doubt, that wouldn't be the only hypothesis, but I think it it holds more water than folks prefering to live a marginal hunter/gatherer existance by choice.

Many years ago, there was a book by an anthropologist who theorized that the Age of Agriculture was actually a step backward except for the ability to support city-states and enable the accumulation of knowledge that made civilization possible. Based on skeletal evidence, the transition to agriculture saw most populations studied in Europe and Asia decrease in size, with earlier deterioration of teeth and other signs of poor health. As population densities increased, there wasn't enough land available to live as hunter/gatherers, except in marginal areas that were difficult to survive in, but it's not like agriculture was a progression for those early farmers. They had to work long hours to enjoy a less varied and poorer diet than they enjoyed generations earlier, when they were living in the wild!

Many years ago I read a biography about Joseph Brant, the Iroquois grand chief who fought against the Americans on the side of the British, and accepted a tract of land along the Grand River as payment. The Iroquois did some farming long before Europeans arrived, but took no interest in raising livestock since there was plenty of meat available by hunting. But when the Brant's tribes moved to the Grand River Settlement, he discovered that the tract of land wasn't big enough for bush hunting and more than enough if they adopted the European model of farming. And since at the time, they were land rich and cash poor, he suggested selling off land to buy livestock and supplies needed for the new farming system. So, in a nutshell, you can see how there was no economic advantage to adopting European farming methods as long as they were living in the Finger Lakes region of Upstate New York where wild game was plentiful.

As for human's arrival in the Western hemisphere, it is generally thought that it happened during the last ice age when sea levels were lower rather than hundreds of thousands of years ago. There is some evidence to suggest this number might have been much earlier...some chance arrivals blown in from this place or that via the oceans. However, I believe there is a certain critcal level in terms of population numbers needed in order to provide a deep enough gene pool to last beyond a dozen generations or so. This is why science still tends to think we walked to North America in fairly large groups from Asia rather than random chance toe-holds blooming into full blown civilizations...like the Aztecs.

--------------------------------------------

We think that groups of between 30 and 40 early men would have settled in an area measuring a hundred square kilometers.

---Dr Richard Leakey (re: early man in Africa)

I wish I had bookmarked the links because there have been a number of recent research papers analyzing Y-chromosome and mDNA from various aboriginal population groups in North and South America, and they are leading away from the long, slow march across the continent theory of migration. Now it appears that human habitation down the coast was too rapid to have occurred by a gradual land migration. Some groups would have had to travel by small boat along the coasts and may have arrived long before Bering Land Bridge appeared. Genetic evidence finds common alleles among South American tribes with Polynesian islanders, raising the possibility that there were large migrations across the Pacific Ocean. It will take time to sort out and evaluate all of the data, but the picture is beginning to look like settlement of the Americas was much more complex than originally believed.

[bush_cheney2004]

My exact thoughts re: you. It's always fun to watch morally superior people talk down to the rest of us. What was the old news group term? Oh yeah..."Internet Jesus".

Excellent! I forgot about that appropriate term from the alt news groups.

Internet Jesus...Amen!

[AngusThermopyle]

Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention; Willie the Pimp - Hot Rats (Featuring Captain Beefheart); Ryko

Classic.

I wonder if he actually listens to, and likes Zappa or was it just picking quotes he thought would make his point?

Another favourite of mine is Crew Slut, also Flakes. Can`t forget Flakes.

[DogOnPorch]

Many years ago, there was a book by an anthropologist who theorized that the Age of Agriculture was actually a step backward except for the ability to support city-states and enable the accumulation of knowledge that made civilization possible. Based on skeletal evidence, the transition to agriculture saw most populations studied in Europe and Asia decrease in size, with earlier deterioration of teeth and other signs of poor health. As population densities increased, there wasn't enough land available to live as hunter/gatherers, except in marginal areas that were difficult to survive in, but it's not like agriculture was a progression for those early farmers. They had to work long hours to enjoy a less varied and poorer diet than they enjoyed generations earlier, when they were living in the wild!

I agree hunter gatherers...successful ones...were said to have quite a lot of leisure time...just no stimulus to do anything with that time. I suppose it was due to the world of the hunter gatherer already being explained and anything that might interfere with that balance being frowned upon. A young member of a tribe might come up with an inovation only to have it spurned by elder members because it might upset this balance. The two points you bring up...cities and accumulated wealth are indeed the two huge pay-offs that made it all worth while.

Many years ago I read a biography about Joseph Brant, the Iroquois grand chief who fought against the Americans on the side of the British, and accepted a tract of land along the Grand River as payment. The Iroquois did some farming long before Europeans arrived, but took no interest in raising livestock since there was plenty of meat available by hunting. But when the Brant's tribes moved to the Grand River Settlement, he discovered that the tract of land wasn't big enough for bush hunting and more than enough if they adopted the European model of farming. And since at the time, they were land rich and cash poor, he suggested selling off land to buy livestock and supplies needed for the new farming system. So, in a nutshell, you can see how there was no economic advantage to adopting European farming methods as long as they were living in the Finger Lakes region of Upstate New York where wild game was plentiful.

That was a push, indeed...rising population...because you're right that hunting and gathering takes much more room than farming and is often horribly inefficient. Driving a thousand buffalo off of a cliff to feed a tribe of one hundred being a possible example.

I wish I had bookmarked the links because there have been a number of recent research papers analyzing Y-chromosome and mDNA from various aboriginal population groups in North and South America, and they are leading away from the long, slow march across the continent theory of migration. Now it appears that human habitation down the coast was too rapid to have occurred by a gradual land migration. Some groups would have had to travel by small boat along the coasts and may have arrived long before Bering Land Bridge appeared. Genetic evidence finds common alleles among South American tribes with Polynesian islanders, raising the possibility that there were large migrations across the Pacific Ocean. It will take time to sort out and evaluate all of the data, but the picture is beginning to look like settlement of the Americas was much more complex than originally believed.

There are many different ideas on this one. As you mention, boats might have been used for short coastal hops which would have greatly sped up the colonization of N andd S America. During the Ice Age, in particular, where walls of ice were, no doubt, quite the major problem in terms of travel. It is also thought that areas like the Amazon probably had a lot less tree cover allowing humans to pass through with less effort. I still believe that these moves would have to have been by large enough population bases to survive from a genetic pov before recessive traits took over the population.

--------------------------------------------------------------

The coming of the printing press must have seemed as if it would turn the world upside down in the way it spread and, above all, democratized knowledge. Provide you could pay and read, what was on the shelves in the new bookshops was yours for the taking. The speed with which printing presses and their operators fanned out across Europe is extraordinary. From the single Mainz press of 1457, it took only twenty-three years to establish presses in 110 towns: 50 in Itay, 10 in Germany, 9 in France, 8 in Spain, 8 in Holland, 4 in England, and so on.

---James Burke

[DogOnPorch]

Classic.

I wonder if he actually listens to, and likes Zappa or was it just picking quotes he thought would make his point?

Another favourite of mine is Crew Slut, also Flakes. Can`t forget Flakes.

I was a huge Zappa fan, too...I even owed 'Sleep Dirt'...lol. "Titties and Beer" would be my favorite..."Billy the Mountain" was another good one. 'Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch' had "Valley Girl"...Frank's only co-"hit" song.

--------------------------------

Billy was a mountain...Ethel was a tree growing out of his shoulder...

---Frank Zappa

[WIP]

I agree hunter gatherers...successful ones...were said to have quite a lot of leisure time...just no stimulus to do anything with that time. I suppose it was due to the world of the hunter gatherer already being explained and anything that might interfere with that balance being frowned upon. A young member of a tribe might come up with an inovation only to have it spurned by elder members because it might upset this balance. The two points you bring up...cities and accumulated wealth are indeed the two huge pay-offs that made it all worth while.

That was a push, indeed...rising population...because you're right that hunting and gathering takes much more room than farming and is often horribly inefficient. Driving a thousand buffalo off of a cliff to feed a tribe of one hundred being a possible example.

Aside from improving on the design of tools and weapons, there's very little that hunter/gatherer cultures could do to advance civilization. They lived in small groups and usually had to be constantly on the move. In order to build a civilization, you need a substantial population living in fixed location that has developed a written language.

There are many different ideas on this one. As you mention, boats might have been used for short coastal hops which would have greatly sped up the colonization of N andd S America. During the Ice Age, in particular, where walls of ice were, no doubt, quite the major problem in terms of travel. It is also thought that areas like the Amazon probably had a lot less tree cover allowing humans to pass through with less effort. I still believe that these moves would have to have been by large enough population bases to survive from a genetic pov before recessive traits took over the population.

I've been sifting through some of the latest articles written about the settlement patterns in the Americas, and before a clear picture is available, they will have to decide between two contradictory models: one that includes migrations along the coast by small boat, and the other, from National Geographic's Genographic Project, which claims there is mtDNA and YDNA evidence that a small group of no more than 70 people were trapped in beringia for several thousand years before weather conditions allowed their descendents to migrate throughout North America.

[crybabykm]

BaSICK question, no answer

You all come up with the same arguement over and over again.

Why not answer with a new train of thought?

Do you believe or don't believe in your "Native Canadians?"

And why or why not?

And what is with this white business? We are not white, we are pink!

Pin triple k!

[AngusThermopyle]

I think you have to clarify exactly what it is that you are asking.

You started the thread by asking "Native Canadians, in or out". What exactly are you asking with the "in or out" bit?

You then asked this one:

Do you believe or don't believe in your "Native Canadians?"

The answer to that is simple, of course I believe in them. I see them every day, it's hard not to believe in whats in front of your face on a daily basis. Or are you asking whether we believe in the potential or "good nature" of native Canadians?

If you could be a little more clear and less obscure in the questions you pose you might get answers more suitable to your initial questions.

[crybabykm]

"White" isn't a skin color

It is a mentality that was used by the pink people against the indians of the land.

Now we have east indians from India who use the same "white" mentality when they rent to the same indians of the land.

Anguz the whatever, you answer your own question. Quit being such an A Ding Dang Doo!