Steyn on the future of Western society

[jbg]

If Political Islam is incompatible with western values (I agree, by the way) in the way communism is, I must ask 'so what'?. We allow communist party's to exist and run for seats in parliament; we allow the Marxist-Leninist party to exist and run for parliament; we allow the Christian Heritage party to exist and run for parliament; we allow many partys whose outlook and/or political aims are inconsistant with Western liberal constitutions.

Why should we treat any future "Islamic" party (as yet there are no such party's in canada as far as I know) any different?

Because the fact that Islam is also a religion makes it immune, under hate crimes laws and general notions of "political correctness" to debate and attack in the media. Whereas Communists were effectively marginalized, it is harder to so marginalize Islam. Also, their "religious" nature makes government's use of their monopoly on legitimate violence far more problematical.

[BC_chick]

Those that think all Canadians...or any educated population...are so easily led around by their noses really just hold said population in contempt. All it says is that they think they're smarter and wiser than you and the guy next to you, as well.

I was talking the other day with a woman with whom I was negotiating a real-estate deal. When asked where her tenants were from, she said she believes they're Korean. I met the tenant later and I could tell right away that he's Hispanic. Indeed he was.

As I'm sure you're aware, there is a striking difference between South American and Korean features.

A few days later one of my neighbours was talking about her daughter's husband who is the US army. She said he's away at war, at "that country" whose name she could not recall. You would think the names Afghanistan or Iraq would ring a bell, but no, she had no clue where her son-in-law was even after the two names were provided.

I found out later that he's in Iraq. You know, "that country" whose name is repeated at least a dozen or so times on the daily news?

Nobody can ever guess my background, though once I was told I'm very "exotic" looking and asked if I'm from Idaho.

Sadly, these are the type of folks who may be influenced by Steyn's article.

For the record, I'm not stating my opnion as to whether or not Steyn's article is within its rights as freedom of press or if it crosses the line into inciting hate. It's not my place to decide. But if you think the average Canadian knows "better" about this world and the people who are in it, you're sadly mistaken.

[Peter F]

Because the fact that Islam is also a religion makes it immune, under hate crimes laws and general notions of "political correctness" to debate and attack in the media.

Certainly, for people like you, who's concept of Muslims is that they want to kill us all...or enslave us - despite what they may say and despite how they may behave otherwise. You want to criticize Islam go ahead. There's much to be critical of. But saying the horseshit you and Steyn pass off as criticism is Hate...good ol bigotted neo-nazi skinhead hate.

Whereas Communists were effectively marginalized, it is harder to so marginalize Islam.

What a shame. My heart pumps purple piss for your difficulty in marginalizing people you don't like.

There should be a law making it easy to do that...How will the west ever survive?

Also, their "religious" nature makes government's use of their monopoly on legitimate violence far more problematical.

Jesus wept.

[White Doors]

I still fail to see anything that Steyn said was hateful..

Incidentally, the 'breeding like mosquitos' quote was from an Imam. Should Steyn/MacLeans be charged for repeating it?

[August1991]

If Political Islam is incompatible with western values (I agree, by the way) in the way communism is, I must ask 'so what'?. We allow communist party's to exist and run for seats in parliament; we allow the Marxist-Leninist party to exist and run for parliament; we allow the Christian Heritage party to exist and run for parliament; we allow many partys whose outlook and/or political aims are inconsistant with Western liberal constitutions.

Why should we treat any future "Islamic" party (as yet there are no such party's in canada as far as I know) any different?

Uh, no one is saying that Islamic groups or parties should not exist. We are objecting to several people (Muslims) trying to silence others. To use your example, how would you feel if the Communist Party of Canada tried to silence criticism of Marxist beliefs on the grounds that such criticsm opened Communists to possible hatred?

Should you be prosecuted? Absolutely. To the fullest extent of the law. Politics be damned.

There is something vaguely frightening in this argument that "it's the law and we have to respect the law". I suspect that in Nazi Germany (where restrictions on freedom of speech were also commonly applied to keep order in society), someone also said "that's the law and you have to obey it".

[Peter F]

Incidentally, the 'breeding like mosquitos' quote was from an Imam. Should Steyn/MacLeans be charged for repeating it?

Incidentally, I never mentioned it as part of Mr Steyn's hate essay.

[MontyBurns]

Certainly, for people like you, who's concept of Muslims is that they want to kill us all...or enslave us - despite what they may say and despite how they may behave otherwise. You want to criticize Islam go ahead. There's much to be critical of. But saying the horseshit you and Steyn pass off as criticism is Hate...good ol bigotted neo-nazi skinhead hate.

What a shame. My heart pumps purple piss for your difficulty in marginalizing people you don't like.

There should be a law making it easy to do that...How will the west ever survive?

Jesus wept.

Who's side are you on?

[jbg]

Who's side are you on?

I think we learned the answer to what side the poster you were responding to was on back on September 11, 2001 between 8:45 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

[WIP]

I agree. It is dangerous ground that could just as easily be used as a weapon against their goals. One envokes Storm Troopers as bodyguards at their own peril...one might say.

Those that think all Canadians...or any educated population...are so easily led around by their noses really just hold said population in contempt. All it says is that they think they're smarter and wiser than you and the guy next to you, as well. Mr Burns would simply release the hounds.

I think you have more confidence in the average person's ability to critically analyse a statement than I do! This shell-game tactic of embedding targeted criticisms in a general commentary about a group seems to be a very successful tactic to cast aspersions on groups and avoiding the charges of racism, sexism etc.

I agree both sides feed off of one another. However, I think fellows like Steyn are a response rather than a cause. We wouldn't listen to him at all if certain events involving terrorists waving the Koran didn't occur. Seriously...in 1990...what did you think the most pressing problem on the planet was? Probably not Islamic terrorism.

Do you remember the few weeks before 9-11? Can you recall what the big news was? My wife and I both remember...there was a large string of shark attacks around the planet (dumb luck)...so many attacks that new-hounds were musing that there might be a shark-conspiracy. Odd what one remembers...

And that's what had me worried after 9/11 had settled in and the War On Terror started...when people are enraged and driven by emotional responses, they do not think rationally. The best example we had in my area, was some idiot who went out on the night of 9/11 with the intention of burning a mosque to the ground....but he did apparently did not know the difference between Muslims and Hindus and destroyed the Hindu Temple just off Hwy 6, probably because he had previously seen a lot of South Asians gathered there and just assumed that must be the place take revenge.

And on a larger scale, the anger and fear generated by the 9/11 attacks was used by the Bush Administration to launch an invasion of Iraq -- a strategy that we are now learning, had been on the president's wish list. 9/11 provided the cover necessary to make it happen, since the majority of fearful and enraged citizens seeking vengence were not clear-minded enough to ask how Iraq fit the argument being made against Islamic extremists like Al Qaeda or what the wider repercussions of a full scale invasion of the Arab World would be. Now, we're finding out! But some of the questions now being asked, should have been put forward before the invasion got underway; and that's a big problem I have with neoconservative critics like Mark Steyn: he advocates an imperialist policy that throws gasoline on the fire. If he was just criticising the excesses of Muslim fundamentalists, that would be one thing; but Steyn and many so-called new atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris were right there on the front line advocating a strategy that did not make sense!

To be fair to Mr Steyn, that's the same thing the 3 Muslim students said re: wanting a clash of civilizations. Steyn replied he'd rather be on his porch looking at the mountains. Do you recall that? Not sure what part it is in.

Hard to say what his real motives are, but we can both agree that one of them is selling books. As I mentioned earlier...or elsewhere, I forget...Pat Codell is in a similar vein while not selling books. It's up to you to judge if the message is different.

I watched some the Pat Codell video clips, and so far, I haven't found much that I had already heard before, but I can't disagree with his arguments. I didn't see anything about him supporting the occupation of Iraq though, and he doesn't focus his religious criticisms just at Islam, he has rocks to throw at the Church as well!

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The US military is certainly multi-faith...much like the country. Soldiers of every colour and creed, from every state of the Union, all serving in the same regiment/ship/squadron/etc.

First...like many in the West...I'm non-religious and god or gods don't enter into the daily equation of life. Second, this isn't the 8th century...and if it was, chances are Muslims would have been "occupying" my town. However, I agree there's a Christian element that has a bit too much influence in America at the moment...but come November, that'll likely change even if McCain gets in.

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Avoiding offense means that we don't accept each other as equals.

---Ayaan Hirsi Ali

I don't know if you've noticed, but Obama and the Democrats are very busy of late trying to court that evangelical vote and bring it to the Democratic Party. So the power of the Religious Right may be waning, but the Religious Left looks like it's rising from the ashes.

[August1991]

And on a larger scale, the anger and fear generated by the 9/11 attacks was used by the Bush Administration to launch an invasion of Iraq -- a strategy that we are now learning, had been on the president's wish list.

Ah yes, blame the victim.

America was wearing a short skirt. She wanted to be raped.

[BC_chick]

Ah yes, blame the victim.

America was wearing a short skirt. She wanted to be raped.

I believe that's the rebuttal to "America's past policies were the cause of 9/11"... not to be confused with WIP's position that "GW abused 9/11 to further his preplanned Iraq war".....

Maybe try and think of them in terms of the first is anti-America while the other is anti-Bush. Whatever works for you.... I just thought I'd point it out since you're not one to usually throw out irrelevant responses.

[August1991]

I believe that's the rebuttal to "America's past policies were the cause of 9/11"... not to be confused with WIP's position that "GW abused 9/11 to further his preplanned Iraq war".....

Maybe try and think of them in terms of the first is anti-America while the other is anti-Bush. Whatever works for you.... I just thought I'd point it out since you're not one to usually throw out irrelevant responses.

Whatever works for me? Huh?

Are you suggesting that George W. Bush took advantage of the WTC attacks?

Isn't that like saying an older brother used a younger sister, wearing a provocative short skirt, to provoke a guy into rape as an excuse to beat the guy up? I'm sorry but such complicated machinations are beyond me. (While I admittedly first raised the comparison to rape, I'm really uncomfortable with the comparison.)

The US (and the Western World, including people like me who enjoy a free life) are more than Bush Jnr and his actions. We westerners and Americans are much more than our Canadian, US, Australian or European governments.

My brother, government, prime minister, father, husband, priest or Imam, don't speak for me. I have my own voice.

Edited June 13, 2008 by August1991

[BC_chick]

Are you suggesting that George W. Bush took advantage of the WTC attacks?

I do believe that, but no, that's not what I was saying in that specific post.

WIP's quote to which you were responding implied that GW abused 9/11 and misled a nation taking advantage of their collective anger and fear fresh after the attacks.

Your response about blaming the victim is irrelevant and does not address this point. It does, however, address the another school of thought which states that America's foreign policy contributed to 9/11.

IOW... I was saying you have your two rebuttals mixed up.

[August1991]

I do believe that, but no, that's not what I was saying in that specific post.

I fear that too many Leftists believe as you apparently do: "The West wore a short skirt, and Bush took advantage of her skirt to beat up on the neighbour." In Left-think, Bush somehow made the West wear a short skirt.

I'm sorry but I have travelled to many countries, I am what I am, and I don't think that I should apologize for my short skirts.

We should have no fear to take or defend our Western values wherever we want.

Edited June 13, 2008 by August1991

[BC_chick]

I fear that too many Leftists believe as you apparently do: "The West wore a short skirt, and Bush took advantage of her skirt to beat up on the neighbour." In Left-think, Bush somehow made the West wear a short skirt.

I'm sorry but I have travelled to many countries, I am what I am, and I don't think that I should apologize for my short skirts.

We should have no fear to take or defend our Western values wherever we want.

Did you hear about that plane that got rammed into the towers in Sweden? No neither did I.

[Peter F]

Who's side are you on?

I think we learned the answer to what side the poster you were responding to was on back on September 11, 2001 between 8:45 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.

I'm on the side of not punishing the innocent for the acts of the terrorists. Jbg is on the side of mindless vengeance. We have no effing idea what side montyburns is on.

[August1991]

Did you hear about that plane that got rammed into the towers in Sweden? No neither did I.

The building in North Dakota was apparently left untouched too.

But innocence is no defence - just ask the parents in Beslan or those of clubgoers in Bali.

BC Chick, this is not a competition about how many innocent people have died (as much as I fear that in this future war, it may become one.) Nor is this a question of Swedish or American governments or people provoking rape or death.

We Westerners travel around the world and conduct our lives as we see fit. We are free people, women and men, black and white, gay and straight. This freedom that we take for granted in our daily lives conflicts with other people on this planet.

It is foolish to pretend that this conflict does not exist.

Edited June 14, 2008 by August1991

[Argus]

Certainly, for people like you, who's concept of Muslims is that they want to kill us all...or enslave us - despite what they may say and despite how they may behave otherwise. You want to criticize Islam go ahead. There's much to be critical of. But saying the horseshit you and Steyn pass off as criticism is Hate...good ol bigotted neo-nazi skinhead hate.

This is an excellent passage. I think I'll save it because it so beautifully illustrates how politically correct zealots see everything in a black and white world. There is no difference to the PC stormtrooper between people who question immigration, and a neo nazi. There is no difference to a PC stormtrooper between people who worry about political Islam and Neo Nazis. There is no difference to a PC Stormtrooper between someone who tells a gay joke and a neo-nazi.

It would be interesting to round up some of these people and try and determine if it's a complete lack of education which gives them so little context and so much self-righteousness, or a sub-grade intellect combined with early exposure to leftist dogma.

What a shame. My heart pumps purple piss for your difficulty in marginalizing people you don't like.

Great irony here. Doubt he'll understand though.

[Peter F]

There is no difference to the PC stormtrooper between people who question immigration, and a neo nazi. There is no difference to a PC stormtrooper between people who worry about political Islam and Neo Nazis. There is no difference to a PC Stormtrooper between someone who tells a gay joke and a neo-nazi.

Question immigration all you want. Mr.Steyn isn't questioning immigration - in fact his thesis of the old-fart non-reproducing West pretty much demands immigration. Mr. Steyn is saying there is nothing anyone can do about it. His prophecies of doom isn't caused by immigration or political Islam or gay jokes - the doom is caused by Muslims.

Or are you so mentally enfeebled to be unable to determine that from his article?

It would be interesting to round up some of these people and try and determine if it's a complete lack of education which gives them so little context and so much self-righteousness, or a sub-grade intellect combined with early exposure to leftist dogma.

Great irony here. Doubt he'll understand though.

I can read the words on the page. Apparently thats one intellectual step up from you.

[Michael Hardner]

Rightwing and leftwing blogs all crosslink each other to create their own little echo chambers.

WIP,

I too realized this awhile back.

People are relying on media to debate politics FOR them. The right-wing-left-wing echo chamber is a product of media segmentation, to speak to different "audiences" that will help selling advertising.

Nobody is purely right-wing or left-wing, though. We should engage with each other directly, as democracy was supposed to work.

[Michael Hardner]

HisSelf:

This is hugely amusing. So what would happen if somebody were to publish a book saying that Jews were taking over the world and backed it up with specious data like Steyn did?

Steyn is an idiot. This too shall pass.

I don't think you could watch him speak and think he's not intelligent.

He is, however, wrong.

That in itself is something for us to learn from.

[Michael Hardner]

Ok, jbg.

I spent about 1/2 an hour and looked at the link, and read about Malmo specifically.

When I read about the problems in Malmo and Sweden in general, they seemed to speak to immigration in general when dealing with very large numbers. There was a huge influx of asylum seekers, though, referenced in that article you mentioned and I concur that numbers like that will cause social problems:

"You have 1,000 students in a Swedish school. How many are Swedes? Two," said Lars Birgersson, principal of the Rosengrad School."

So, let me say here and now that a 99.8 % immigration rate of a group that is completely different into a homogeneous population WILL cause problems.

But, I will also say that that has nothing in particular to do with which race, nationality or religion is being imported.

And, more to the point, it doesn't at all support the original point you made.

There's one important thing that Steyn is missing; the crippling social welfare costs of Muslims who reproduce like mad, but do little or no gainful work.

Canada to my knowledge isn't importing anything near that number of refugees. I'm interested, though, in finding out more data if you have any to offer.

[MontyBurns]

I'm on the side of not punishing the innocent for the acts of the terrorists. Jbg is on the side of mindless vengeance. We have no effing idea what side montyburns is on.

Are you from the middle east or something?

[DogOnPorch]

Are you from the middle east or something?

Nah...just smug. Did you see that episode of South Park? George Clooney's Acadamy Awards speech...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!

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I'm certainly the last person to give advice on, well, anything.

---George Clooney

[Wild Bill]

Question immigration all you want. Mr.Steyn isn't questioning immigration - in fact his thesis of the old-fart non-reproducing West pretty much demands immigration. Mr. Steyn is saying there is nothing anyone can do about it. His prophecies of doom isn't caused by immigration or political Islam or gay jokes - the doom is caused by Muslims.

Or are you so mentally enfeebled to be unable to determine that from his article?

I can read the words on the page. Apparently thats one intellectual step up from you.

Well, I too read Steyn's book and I've noticed that many of his points are being ignored or misquoted in this thread. Steyn seemed quite emphatic that the problem as he saw it was not merely that so many immigrants are Muslim. It was more that they come from countries that practice a fundamentalist form of Islam. Moreover, unlike any other immigrant group in history they have some dramatic cultural conflicts stemming from their faith. They see NO separation of church and state and believe that their religion trumps state law. Moreover, immigrants from these cultures even when non-militant tend to support militant members of their community.

So he's not talking about all Muslims and recognises that there are more progressive and tolerant groups within that faith than the fundamentalists. The problem is, it's not the progressive folks we have to fear! We never had to fear all Irishmen but we did have to fear the ones who let off bombs in subways or school buses.

Islam in many countries appears to be a faith that has not really changed in centuries. Actually, in those countries their very culture has been as unchanged as their religion. They are ill-equipped for the modern world and often have imams who preach that they should not change to suit modern times but rather should change the rest of the world to fit their more primitive views.

You can always find Muslims who are as reasonable and as modern as the rest of us. So what? Mainstream Christianity has to deal with fundamentalist "Jim Jones" elements. We don't try to excuse the Jim Jones type sects because most other Christians are not as whacko. We deal with the whackos! The same is true of any groups of militant Muslims and how they compare to mainstream Islam.

We have to deal with them firmly, not pretend they don't exist. We certainly shouldn't consider changing our own society to fit their vision!