TTC Strike averted

[M.Dancer]

By about 3%.

Well...I think that their pay should be indexed to inflation and that bonuses should be given for exemplary service. I fail to see how they earned a higher pay raise, higher than inflation.

Of course in the union environment, getting noticed for going above and beyond is akin to wearing a Che shirt to a Miami Cuban festival....

[Guest American Woman]

The TTC has turned into a huge bureaucracy that also need to be slimmed down. A private company would never behave in this manner.

Behave in what manner? You mean strike? Of course employees in private companies strike.

[Oleg Bach]

Behave in what manner? You mean strike? Of course employees in private companies strike.

Twenty five years ago when the rich and powerful lawyer Jullian Porter was chairman of the TTC and yes he loved having his own private train set..he ran the commision like he owned it and his trains and buses ran as smoothly as those doing a circle on the living room carpet Christmas morning.. NOW that the bureacracy has quadrulped and all the TTC workers are fat grey haired men with nice cottages in the Cawarthas....point is...take a look at the average TTC employee...almost all of them are boardering on retiring - and no one wants to run an aluminium skiff with a 10 horse Johnston..they are use to the real fast speed boat and bass boat of good quality...they are old and these old guys are saving up for a nice retirement....that's the problem...if the drivers and workers were young and stupid - you could pay them 10 bucks an hour and toss in a few Tim Hortons free coffee coupons.

[M.Dancer]

Behave in what manner? You mean strike? Of course employees in private companies strike.

No...expand where where the market is weak or expand foolishly.

In the past 10 years we have seen the buiding of the Sheppard line, which is a joy to travel during rush hour, always a seat. And the new plan is to creat right of ways for light rail (street cars) whic are hugely expensive, congest the streets as the narrow and reduce the lanes for traffic and they don't promise much increase in ridership.

Where as the sheppard subway line is in an area that doesn't see much passengers, and the street cars lines already do (or in the case of the bus lines they will replace), it's a question of setting pragmatic priorities. On top of that fares have jumped sharply in the past few years to the point where a short trip with 3 people is more economical to take a cab...

[Oleg Bach]

No...expand where where the market is weak or expand foolishly.

In the past 10 years we have seen the buiding of the Sheppard line, which is a joy to travel during rush hour, always a seat. And the new plan is to creat right of ways for light rail (street cars) whic are hugely expensive, congest the streets as the narrow and reduce the lanes for traffic and they don't promise much increase in ridership.

Where as the sheppard subway line is in an area that doesn't see much passengers, and the street cars lines already do (or in the case of the bus lines they will replace), it's a question of setting pragmatic priorities. On top of that fares have jumped sharply in the past few years to the point where a short trip with 3 people is more economical to take a cab...

I never ride the TTC - I walk...it cost more to travel "the better way" then to gas up the car...toss in 6 bucks into the tank and you can make three trips...for the price of a TTC ticket..only problem is parking - that brings the cost of the trip up to a billion bucks...no matter what you do you are screwed - The TTC is to expensive none the less. I could see paying them 20 bucks an hour or maybe 5 bucks an hour...seeing that our international business elite are driving wages down to third world levels...that's what it's really about...slavery - and old TTC guys are not going to become globalist grindings that work for nothing in their old age. They are mature and know to much---you will just have to wait for them to die off and then hire some drivers from Shrilanka for $1.50 an hour...and that day will come - fish head soup anyone> get use to it?

[guyser]

I was happy when they said there was no strike because I needed to get to school and I dont have a car and would have to walk or beg my mom to take me and she would get mad at me.

Hi qwerty !

[HisSelf]

Ditto for politician pay-raises.

Yeah. When did politicians get declared an essential service

[Guest FrootLoops]

Someone at school told me that TTC might still go onstrikez cuz of the mr. fixit guyz fighting wit teh drivers. is this true?

[WCN]

Well it looks like there will be a strike!

Toronto Transit Commission workers voted down a tentative contract agreement late Friday night and shortly thereafter walked off the job in a surprise strike.

.....

Miller said the union had promised 48 hours notice before any strike action but that Kinnear wouldn't honour the commitment when urged Friday.

"This is unacceptable and it's also irresponsible," said Miller.

Miller said he has spoken to Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and requested the provincial government's assistance in introducing back-to-work legislation.

Isn't this strike breaking the law since they need to give 48 hours?

"We have assessed the situation and decided that we will not expose our members to the dangers of assaults from angry and irrational members of the public," Kinnear said in a press release.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

So this is the reason for the strike? Come on!

Everyday I take the Bus in Calgary and I see bus drivers being threatened quite often (sometimes in front of me) so this is nothing new to them. But again this won't do any good for both sides since people will just get more angry at transit workers and that lot's of people will suffer because they will not be able to get to work.

[Guest American Woman]

Everyday I take the Bus in Calgary and I see bus drivers being threatened quite often (sometimes in front of me) ...

If they are threatened every day, when there is no impending strike, don't you think your observation proves that TTC workers could very well be subjected to violence in light of the anger people have over the strike? Remember, too, that not all workers voted against the contract, but they'd be out there taking the heat just the same.

[M.Dancer]

Now is a good time for the city to see if they can cut costs by outsourcing over priced services like ticket collectors and cleaners.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Many of Denmark's trains are zero-manned and controlled by computers. There are no conductors, the trains operate on an honour system, and passengers purchase their tickets from machines before boarding, periodic checks and stiff penalties deter individuals from abusing the system. The TTC should consider a similar system for Toronto.

Bingo! We should mechanize (automate) every job there is. Just imagine the profits* when employers don't have to pay wages. Oh wait, everybody will be out of a job and won't be able to pay for anything.

[*Yes I know I am ignoring the law of the falling tendency of the rate of profit.]

So this is the reason for the strike? Come on!

Come on, you cannot be that thick can you?! The fear of abuse is what forced them NOT to give 48h notice. It had nothing to do with the strike.

I never ride the TTC - I walk...it cost more to travel "the better way" then to gas up the car...toss in 6 bucks into the tank and you can make three trips...for the price of a TTC ticket..only problem is parking - that brings the cost of the trip up to a billion bucks...no matter what you do you are screwed

This ignores the added cost of traffic jams, increased road wear, the higher rate of accidents, the diversion of resources from the police and rescues services, the environmental impact, and increased fuel consumption. All caused by the added traffic of simple minded folks who cannot see past their noses like you. Good thing not everyone is like you.

if the drivers and workers were young and stupid - you could pay them 10 bucks an hour and toss in a few Tim Hortons free coffee coupons.

As a society is that what we want? A bunch of kids who don't know any better. Entrust them with the lives of how many people? To reduce the turnover rate you have to offer people careers (look at call centers to see what happens when you have a bunch of kids getting paid $10/hr - industry wide average turnover rate of 40%). You want mature people with experience driving a bus filled with 50 people.

People cannot pinned this strike on the evil unions, the workers voted against ratifying the deal reached between the union leaders and the government. The vote by the workers represents a real feeling of dissatisfaction on the part of the workers. One cannot dismiss their point of view as if it were nothing.

This of course ignores the greater problem of people like Oleg and Co. who wish to reduce all work to subsistence level (except your own jobs of course). Make everything cheap by turning everyone into monkeys who can be bought off with "Tim Hortons" coupons - once people don't make enough to live on we'll deal with it right? We are all individuals blindly moving about...

[August1991]

Thread hijack ahead.

Bingo! We should mechanize (automate) every job there is. Just imagine the profits* when employers don't have to pay wages. Oh wait, everybody will be out of a job and won't be able to pay for anything.

[*Yes I know I am ignoring the law of the falling tendency of the rate of profit.]

That's gotta be one of the dumbest posts that I've seen on this forum for awhile.

By your logic, LOC, to reduce unemployment to zero, we should all go back and live in caves without electricity, cars, dishwashers or sewing machines. When people lose their job because of a machine, they don't go home and twiddle their thumbs and stare into space. They go look for a new job - and the world then has something new from their labours.

A sophisticated economy is constantly eliminating jobs because we are always seeking better ways to do things.

----

Meanwhile, back in Toronto:

The TTC strike should be over by Monday morning.

The Liberal government is scrambling to have the back-to-work legislation introduced tomorrow with a rare Sunday sitting in the Legislature, sources told the Star this morning.

Link Edited April 26, 2008 by August1991

[lost&outofcontrol]

Thread hijack ahead.

That's gotta be one of the dumbest posts that I've seen on this forum for awhile.

By your logic, LOC, to reduce unemployment to zero, we should all go back and live in caves without electricity, cars, dishwashers or sewing machines. When people lose their job because of a machine, they don't go home and twiddle their thumbs and stare into space. They go look for a new job - and the world then has something new from their labours.

A sophisticated economy is constantly eliminating jobs because we are always seeking better ways to do things.

My reply to your thread hijack.

Don't confuse the particular for the whole August. Outsourced workers usually end up working lower paying jobs which reduces their quality of life. More workers thrown into the unemployment pool places downward pressure on wages (The worker with the a certain level of production = y use to be command x money and now only commands <x for the same y level of production).

Your entire house of cards rests on the assumptions that new jobs created by new technology or progress will replaced the previously high paying jobs. When we look at wage levels historically we see that at the very best wages have remained stagnant for the past 60 years (this does not include many factors such as higher taxes) leading me and hopefully yourself (as it is quite obvious) that at best, job creation has barely kept up in maintain the quality of life for workers (if you knew anything about Marxian economics you would see that we've had the explanation for the last 140 years for this phenomena).

Progress appears to be dialectical in nature (society in opposition to the individuals interests who make up society). On the whole, new job creation barely keeps up with the downward pressure on wages. Outsourcing is but one byproduct of this progress. To the individual being outsourced i.e., progress is something alien which at the most abstract level benefits society and more concretely benefits employers of labour. The markets should not become all powerful gods, let's all remember that humanity bears the brunt of "market fluctuations".

To end the thread hijacking we can move our discussion elsewhere. But please August, do not assume things when replying to my posts - it makes you look simple.

Edited April 26, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[WCN]

If they are threatened every day, when there is no impending strike, don't you think your observation proves that TTC workers could very well be subjected to violence in light of the anger people have over the strike? Remember, too, that not all workers voted against the contract, but they'd be out there taking the heat just the same.

They will have to worry about it but it is of their own doing now, when they choose to go on strike they better be prepared to face the people when they come back to work. In fact they made situation worse by not giving anyone notice, so if you went to bed last night thinking the strike was averted, you would really be pissed today if you had to work and take a bus because you got no notice and no time to make alternative plans.

Also I wondered why the union would try this sudden strike? It was obvious that the government would step in and force it to work, in fact the PCs and Liberals seem to be in full agreement on a back to work order.

Come on, you cannot be that thick can you?! The fear of abuse is what forced them NOT to give 48h notice. It had nothing to do with the strike.

I'm not that thick but them not giving 48 hours just makes the situation worse and makes the public even more angry at them so it does not help the situation.

Edited April 26, 2008 by WCN

[Guest American Woman]

They will have to worry about it but it is of their own doing now, when they choose to go on strike they better be prepared to face the people when they come back to work. In fact they made situation worse by not giving anyone notice, so if you went to bed last night thinking the strike was averted, you would really be pissed today if you had to work and take a bus because you got no notice and no time to make alternative plans.

They didn't all choose to strike without notice. As I already pointed out, they didn't all vote against the contract; 35% voted to approve the contract, yet they have to take the heat same as those who voted against it. Furthermore, as is always the case in situations like this, some of the workers realize that this sudden strike, which they had no say in, would piss off the people who rely on the transit and that it will make things worse in so far as how the TTC is perceived, etc.

Also I wondered why the union would try this sudden strike? It was obvious that the government would step in and force it to work, in fact the PCs and Liberals seem to be in full agreement on a back to work order.

I'm not that thick but them not giving 48 hours just makes the situation worse and makes the public even more angry at them so it does not help the situation.

It doesn't help the situation, I can't argue with you there. But it may have protected some of the workers. Sure they'll be ordered back by Monday, but that gives people/passengers a cooling off period. I'm not saying calling the strike with no notice was right, and the average worker really has no say in that kind of decision, but it would have been bad if drivers had been assaulted, too. But yeah, I'm sure there were a lot of people (rightfully) pissed off. I'd like to know why 65% voted against the contract. In the long run, I think they may have done themselves more harm than good.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, they have been ordered back to work, so one does have to wonder what the strike accomplished other than pissing people off and putting the workers in a worse situation than they would have been had they given the 48 hours notice. I guess this is the kind of decision that gives unions a bad name.

[HisSelf]

Well, they have been ordered back to work, so one does have to wonder what the strike accomplished other than pissing people off and putting the workers in a worse situation than they would have been had they given the 48 hours notice. I guess this is the kind of decision that gives unions a bad name.

The lack of notice was a HUGE mistake. When I heard about it, I wondered how anybody could have made such a dumb mistake. If these guys think they were getting abuse before....

[Guest American Woman]

The lack of notice was a HUGE mistake. When I heard about it, I wondered how anybody could have made such a dumb mistake. If these guys think they were getting abuse before....

In retrospect, I have to agree. I'm sure the TTC workers will meet with some anger today, and it's really justifiable anger. To leave people stranded, how can they expect anything else? It makes me wonder who made that call, and what they were really thinking.

[HisSelf]

In retrospect, I have to agree. I'm sure the TTC workers will meet with some anger today, and it's really justifiable anger. To leave people stranded, how can they expect anything else? It makes me wonder who made that call, and what they were really thinking.

The head of the union is a guy named Kinnear. Either he was the one with the idea or he didn't have the mojo to stop it. Either way, he is toast. He made McGuinty look good for legislating them back to work.

Sentiment was already against them. New hires getting $50K? Come on now.

People are now talking about making the TTC an essential service. Personally, I think it's time to push for a regional transportation system with Provincial funding and make THAT an essential service. It works in BC.

Edited April 27, 2008 by HisSelf

[August1991]

At some point, a Canadian politician will have the political courage of Reagan and say to public sector unions : "I didn't fire them. They quit!"

Union membership in Canada has been falling and now most union members work for governments. About 75% of all union members in Canada work for governments and the other 25% work for private employers. (Governments get their money through tax collectors; private employers get their money through salespeople.)

It should be no surprise that unions prefer the tax collector method of receiving their pay.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm pro-union; I just think it's too bad when some members make decisions that make unions look bad. If Canada only has 25% unions in the private sector, I have to wonder why. Have unions been busted? Have union jobs been lost? I can't see people voluntarily giving up their union and/or their union jobs.

[M.Dancer]

If Canada only has 25% unions in the private sector, I have to wonder why. Have unions been busted? Have union jobs been lost? I can't see people voluntarily giving up their union and/or their union jobs.

A copuple of reasons, the forst and foremost is most employers are small business. Unions are unlikely to form when the owners knows every employer by name.

Secondly mush of the newer large employers like Toyota or Honda offer an environment that makes the prospect of a union unattractive. Who would give up perfomance bonuses for a chance of paying union dues?

[Rue]

From a purely good faith negotiation perspective, no union leader should ever take an offer back to his union if he has ANY reason, ANY reason at all to believe it could be rejected before he makes it clear, look I will go back with it, I myself support it, but guys I honestly have to tell you I have poor control and it may not fly.

There have been union leaders that have taken offers back that have been rejected but the difference is they negotiate in good faith, i.e., they let management know its not slam dunk, that way Management doesn't go to the press.

What happened here was nasty and it was deliberate not accidental. Kinnear told management it was as good as done and he leaked the story as much as management did. He never should have done that. Had he told Miller he would go back but he would not guarantee it, Miller would have never spoken to the press.

Miller was made deliberately to look like an ass by Kinnear. It was a deliberate attempt to embarass Miller. This was a nasty personal jab. I don't like Miller. I think he has a big fat head but fair is fair.

It was nasty because Kinnear told Zamboni machine the TTC Commissioner who still has not finished puberty, that it was as good as done. This alleged rejection is bullshit. Kinnear sabotaged it the moment he left.

He now in effect has shown he has no credibility and has to be removed. Think about it. Why would anyone neegotiate with him now. Isn't he the one who said he agreed with the settlement and now plays the game of oh its not me its my union members. Oh well. No it does not work that way in collective bargaining precisely because if it did, then all that would happen is management would bid against itself at the table.

This is why when you sit with a union guy, he doesn't f..ck around with you that way. If he wants to get anywhere with you there are certain rules. Real union negotiators do not mislead like that. They just don't. They will be upfront and say I will take your stinking offer to the boys but don't expect me to dance-and if they really like it, they will first make sure they know it can pass before they say they will take it back-they know-they know the pulse of their own guys at all times-they are not stupid and they aren't stupid enough to make themselves look like they have no control especially if that is the case. If Kinnear was really out of control, the last thing he would have done is take the deal back. In fact that is how you know he was in control, the fact that he thought he could pull such a stunt.

Kinnear is a wiesel. What he has done is f..ck his own union. Now no one will ever negotiate with him again thinking he is a liar and there is no guarantee anything he says can be trusted.

Not only that he is an absolute liar. He came back with issues, such as an arguement over wages that wasn't even in dispute at the original negotiations.

I am a neutral guy. I have mediated loads of these kinds of disputes. I believe in the collective bargaining process, but it requires a certain level of good faith by both sides for it to work.

My personal feeling is that with essential services, which the public very much likes precisely because it prevents stoppages of vital services, yes they shouldn't be allowed to go on walk outs, but it can cost more in the long run, because it is true, when arbitrators rule on these things they tend to have a built in bias for workers precisely because they can't strike . All one has to do is look at the results of numerous essential service arbitrations to see that.

So me personally, while I think yes, we need essential service legislation for such vital services as the TTC or police, fire, ambulance, garbage, we should all realize its not cheap and it does take some bargaining power away from management. There is a price paid for that security.

Now in regards to workers, I know people resent them. We tend to look at them and say, they are spoiled, lucky, ungrateful. Those kinds of subjective perceptions are to me asirrational and make no more sense then assuming all management level people are also spoiled, dishonest and make too much money.

Shits come on both sides of the collective bargaining table as do good people. We all are just trying to do what is best for our families and struggle along. Sorry if I do not point the finger at some guy just trying to make a buck. I don't resent it when people in suits do it, so I will not resent it when people in dirty covered uniforms do it.

Say what you want about the TTC union, and I loath this guy Kinnear and think he is as slimy as they get, but fair is fair, TTC Management also is filled top to bottom with dinosaurs whose ideas of management haven't been updated since dinosaurs became extinct. It aint all union caused shit. A lot of it is management stupidity.

There is one clear issue though I would point out where I believe the union is just dead wrong on. If you buy new equipment it comes with a warranty. That is because of exposure to law suits for manufacturer's liability that could expose a city to multi-millions if the product failed, so these pieces of equipment now must come with warrantees to protect against such legal exposure.

The union has to be absolutely idiotic to think if that warranty provides free maintenance, the city will exclude itself from warranty coverage and protect itself from liability if the equipment causes injuries, by not honouring the warrantees which is what the union wants them to do and no you don't use maintenance people for a warranty service covered under the warranty. That is ridiculous not just because of it vitiating the warranty coverage but because it creates a redundant layer of labour. That would be fiscally idiotic and irresponsible and the union knows it.

What this union should be doing instead of acting like reactionary idiots and trying to cling to outmoded jobs let the old jobs die out through attrition and find new jobs for their union people by retraining them.

The gradual introduction of warrantied maintenance can be done working with a graduated phase out by attrition of existing maintenance workers and my providing retraining to certain TTC employees too young to retire. Instead this short sighted union thinks it is losing power and control in future years.

This idea where people can be guaranteed antiquated work is stupid. You either keep uo with technology and learn to adapt or you get replaced by millions of Borgs in China who can do your labour at an 1/8th of the price and where human rights and guaranteed wages and health conditions are a friggin joke.

That is the world we live in. The world has shrunk to the point where unionized labour can not compete with third world labour that is now easily accessible.

The best thing unions can do is wake up and try retrain their workers to keep up with the changes.

This idea you can have zero education and enjoy the kind of standard of living others who have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in toget the same standard is also interesting. Look its Ijust not realistic. All of us whether we like it or not are not going to be able to live as well as we want to without some sort of sacrifice whether that be educational, vocational, or some thing else.

Do I think I am superior to someone who fixes a subway with tools because I have 5 university degrees. No. If anything all those degrees do is establish I am a jack ass. The point though is I worked hard to get those degrees and it is what makes me credible (hard as that is to believe) in certain subject areas. That is the point. We all struggle to become good at something. What gets us what we are due, is sacrifice, not automatic entitlement. That is the only point I am making.

I am not one of these guys who assumes its better to be rich. But I am also not one of those guys who resents people for being rich either. Hey I know people who others are jealous of because they think they are rich. Those same rich people work 14 hours a day and go through incredible stress. That people don't see. I say that the same reason I appreciate some of these blue collar jobs are stressful as well and no I do not think these guys are lazy and get too much money just as I do not believe that rich guy does. Everyone has worth. How we define it is the issue. All I am saying is none of us has automatic entitlements anyway you slice it.

Kinnear is a wiesel. David Miller has a big ugly ballon head. Adam Zamboni machine needs to for heaven's sake up date his wardrobe. He is a collosal geek. The man needs to do something with that greco-nerd hair cut a la Frankenstein and get someone gay on the council to dress him for f..ck's sake.

The funniest one though drunk Mr. Ford the progressive feminist on city council who on cue Monday mprning was quoting Ronald Reagan and uttering the brilliant words fire them all. Lets start with you fat boy.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Rue

[HisSelf]

What has been happening with globalization I think is we are discovering some services can been performed off-shore at lower cost, while some are local and cannot. Driving a bus definitely falls in the latter category. Of course, you can always bring the cheap labour in, which is how the US got into its "illegal immigrant" problem.....