Guest American Woman Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 (edited) My brother gave up his non-union trucking job for the TTC a few years ago and he's never looked back. His buddies in the trucking industry are starving and he just came off a 4 month paid maternity leave. He says the TTC is usually looking for people to replace retirees.I've been checking out BC Ferries myself, the appeal of a union protected government job providing public transit is looking better all the time given the increasing cost of private transportation. On the subject of sucky jobs tourism is sure looking like a loser this year and local developments are being put on hold. Oh well, its been a good 6 years or so...it seems that's about as long as most people get out of the average occupation around here. The only exceptions seem to be the union protected government jobs...hmmmm. I'm glad to hear your brother made a career move that he's happy with. It's not easy getting by/raising a family these days, so it really bothers me when people talk of cutting pay/benefits as a solution instead of raising other people's pay/benefits. It would be different if we were talking CEO salaries here, but $52,000 in the city is hardly being "in the money." I wish you luck should you decide to go with the BC Ferries. Sounds as if it would be a good, and interesting, job. I know what you mean about the tourist business, though. A lot of areas/people/businesses are going to be hurting in both of our countries. I really hope things start to look better soon. But I have to agree that union protected government jobs seem to be a good thing, and worth pursuing. Edited April 21, 2008 by American Woman Quote
WarBicycle Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 A person with a no 'brainer' job should not be earning more money than a registered nurse or school teacher. Quote
M.Dancer Posted April 21, 2008 Author Report Posted April 21, 2008 (edited) Looking at it that way, evidently TTC workers are supposed to be working for free. But even by your example the public purse isn't short $37,000 since the service is taking in money; people aren't using it for free. The TTC loses money hand over fist. I certainly don't blame the union for the bad decisions of management. which incude negotiating a deal that pays almost twice as much as the annual inflation rate. The TTC will be short $100 million by the end of this year based on last years projections, the wage increase adds $16.5 million to the hole. Edited April 21, 2008 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted April 21, 2008 Author Report Posted April 21, 2008 But I have to agree that union protected government jobs seem to be a good thing, and worth pursuing. Until there is no money to pay for the jobs and everyone is layed off. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 A person with a no 'brainer' job should not be earning more money than a registered nurse or school teacher. Nonetheless that seems to be what's happening. The market, as they say, is speaking. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing la la la won't change a thing. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 The TTC loses money hand over fist. I certainly don't blame the union for the bad decisions of management. which incude negotiating a deal that pays almost twice as much as the annual inflation rate.The TTC will be short $100 million by the end of this year based on last years projections, the wage increase adds $16.5 million to the hole. Has anyone tried to privatize it? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WarBicycle Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 Many of Denmark's trains are zero-manned and controlled by computers. There are no conductors, the trains operate on an honour system, and passengers purchase their tickets from machines before boarding, periodic checks and stiff penalties deter individuals from abusing the system. The TTC should consider a similar system for Toronto. Quote
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 Until there is no money to pay for the jobs and everyone is layed off. Canada is based on bailouts.The Honourable John Crosbie The lessons of Bear Sterns will also remain fresh for a long time. In any case government employees will always be the last one's to lose their jobs. If society breaks down completely there will be a high demand for cops and soldiers and Taser manufacturers - actually scratch that, I suspect Taser International will be based in China or Dubai by then. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted April 21, 2008 Author Report Posted April 21, 2008 Nonetheless that seems to be what's happening. The market, as they say, is speaking. Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing la la la won't change a thing. Ummm...no. No of the TTC jobs are not market based...the are collective bargaining based in a closed shop, the TTC isn't free to hire for less than the collective agreement otherwise instead of the TTC paying the most of any public carrier, they would be paying no more or less. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 Many of Denmark's trains are zero-manned and controlled by computers. There are no conductors, the trains operate on an honour system, and passengers purchase their tickets from machines before boarding, periodic checks and stiff penalties deter individuals from abusing the system. The TTC should consider a similar system for Toronto. They use Tasers to enforce ticket sales in Vancouver. Taser's could also be used like cattle prods to speed up sales at the ticket machines. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 Ummm...no.No of the TTC jobs are not market based...the are collective bargaining based in a closed shop, the TTC isn't free to hire for less than the collective agreement otherwise instead of the TTC paying the most of any public carrier, they would be paying no more or less. So what your saying is, you have to privatize it and then bust the union. Better invest in Taser International. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest American Woman Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 A person with a no 'brainer' job should not be earning more money than a registered nurse or school teacher. I take it you're referring to the ticket collectors with your "no brainer" comment. Have you ever done the job? What all does it involve? Anyway, you do realize the TTC includes bus drivers, subway drivers, and street car drivers too, right? Seems to me you're stuck on this "no brainer" line of thought with little else to add. Quote
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 I know what you mean about the tourist business, though. A lot of areas/people/businesses are going to be hurting in both of our countries. I really hope things start to look better soon. The loss of tourism should make things better in the price of fuel given that the industry burns about half the world's fuel. On a normal day I burn anywhere from 350 - 550 liters driving tourists around (then there's what they burned using trains planes and automobiles to get here). I doubt if I burned that much all of last week though. The number of visitors is down 50 - 60% or more. I can only imagine what the price of fuel would be right now if people were still travelling and spending like there was no tomorrow. Boy, talk about writing on the wall...costs are up and revenues are down....tick, tock, tick, tock.... If they'd only eliminate our taxes everything would be bound to come up roses...what are they thinking up there in la la land anyway? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WarBicycle Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 From the article cited:To get on that $100,000 Sunshine List, TTC station collector Candido Barreiro had to work overtime working overtime. More than 1,000 hours worth in 2007 to be precise. So he is on that famous list but to achieve it, he definitely didn't see very much sunshine. "I worked 421 shifts," the 46-year-old said last night at the Bay and Bloor station, chuckling. His poor family would love to see the guy one of these days. I suggest those who are complaining about the TTC salaries apply for the job themselves (since it's a "no-brainer job" I'm sure anyone here would qualify). Then you could work as many hours as this man apparently did, and you too can make $100,000. If you think it's worth hardly ever seeing your family to make $100,000, go for it. Myself, I think I'll settle for less. It sounds as if some people are forgetting that people fought long and hard for unions for a reason, and it also sounds as if the TTC workers are benefitting from that, as more people should be. The answer isn't paying people with decent pay less, it's paying people with sucky pay more. But I look at the price of real estate in Toronto, the cost of living and raising a family there, and I'm thinking $52,000 a year wouldn't make one rich. But look at the bright side-- the more they make, the more taxes they pay back into the system. I take it you're referring to the ticket collectors with your "no brainer" comment. Have you ever done the job? What all does it involve? Anyway, you do realize the TTC includes bus drivers, subway drivers, and street car drivers too, right? Seems to me you're stuck on this "no brainer" line of thought with little else to add. I worked in recruitment in the military for four and a half years, the not-so-bright applicants became mse ops (drivers). Quote
Guest American Woman Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 I worked in recruitment in the military for four and a half years, the not-so-bright applicants became mse ops (drivers). We're not talking about the military, so I'll repeat my question. Do you know what TTC training involves? Btw, nice to know that you recruit/accept "not-so-bright" applicants into the military. Quote
WarBicycle Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 Four individuals who have a cottages close to mine are TTC or MTC bus drivers; they are the first to admit it is a no-brainer job. They have to deal with nutcases who ride the buses in the winter to stay warm or gang members who terrorize passenger for a thrill. Three of them hate the job thanks to management always backing up the public, but the money and medical coverage are good, and the fact they are too old to start over is the only reason they stay. With regard to special skills, registered nurses spend three years in nursing school, those with a BSN do an addition four years at university; schoolteachers have at least an honours degree plus a year at teacher’s college. Bus drivers are lucky if they receive six months formal training. Quote
eyeball Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 (edited) I worked in recruitment in the military for four and a half years, the not-so-bright applicants became mse ops (drivers). This brings to mind a friend's recollection of being drafted for fire-fighting duty whilst hitch-hiking through a fire-zone. The 'recruiter' lined up all his 'applicants' and asked who knew how to operate a pump. One person stuck his hand up. My friend soon found himself sweating to death hauling firehose up a hill above the pump which he could see down below on a nice shady bank of a creek with the operator literally cooling his heels. To really rub it in the pump operator made a $1 more an hour. Not so stupid after all I guess. Edited April 21, 2008 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
WarBicycle Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 I spend a week fighting a forest fire in July 1966, its dangerous work. I was in the military so we did not receive any extra pay for fighting the fire and we were responsible for replacing our boots ruined by the heat. I had the burnt out ground disappear from under me several times. One day while clearing a firebreak a friend of mine had an axe bounce off a tree and hit him in the shin. The injury ended his career. Quote
guyser Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 So here we are with the spectre of a recession looming and the city struggling to keep school resources and even schools open.....3% per year seems overly generous. By about 3%. I wish we had someone in charge that could shut this damn city down and get these assinine unions busted.From the TTC to garbagemen to all the other city workers. Can you answer this? I read in the paper (Sun-but this is only in print not online) about the perks they get....I ripped it from the paper itself. It reads exactly.... "No financial penalties for workers who require time off after being injured in unusual circumstances orby criminal acts " Huh? Tell me someone cant be fired for being off work due to an injury caused by their own criminal act. Quote
Guest American Woman Posted April 21, 2008 Report Posted April 21, 2008 (edited) Four individuals who have a cottages close to mine are TTC or MTC bus drivers; they are the first to admit it is a no-brainer job. They have to deal with nutcases who ride the buses in the winter to stay warm or gang members who terrorize passenger for a thrill. Three of them hate the job thanks to management always backing up the public, but the money and medical coverage are good, and the fact they are too old to start over is the only reason they stay. With regard to special skills, registered nurses spend three years in nursing school, those with a BSN do an addition four years at university; schoolteachers have at least an honours degree plus a year at teacher’s college. Bus drivers are lucky if they receive six months formal training. I would hate to get into any vehicle with a 'brainless' driver/operator, but maybe that's just me. Furthermore, I would think dealing with "nutcases" and "gang members who terrorize the passengers" they are responsible for might require a bit of intelligence too, among other things; and I would think having to deal with such situations might be worth a bit of money on the pay scale, don't you? I wouldn't deal with "nutcases" and "gang members who terrorize" for peanuts, and I can't imagine why anyone else would be willing to. As for the individuals you refer to who hate their job-- first the job is made to sound as if it's a cushy high paying job that anyone could do. Now you're saying three of the four people you know who work for the TTC hate it so much that they only stay because they have no other alternatives; so I guess if the job is as bad as you say it is, people wouldn't stay if it paid less, and perhaps that's why it pays more than you seem to think it should-- because salaries for jobs aren't based on just one thing, and unions were formed so the hard work "no brainers" ( ) do would be valued monetarily too. You seem to think salaries should all be based on length of education, but the reason some people continue their education isn't because they'll make more money, but because they won't be "stuck" in a job they don't like. People do sometimes turn down jobs that pay more for jobs they enjoy. But for the record, I have talked to transit drivers in T.O. and NYC, and I am happy to say that they came across as intelligent, interesting people who enjoy their jobs. I also admit that I wouldn't be able to do their job, in spite of the fact that I most definitely have a brain. Edited April 21, 2008 by American Woman Quote
August1991 Posted April 22, 2008 Report Posted April 22, 2008 Councillor Michael Thompson of Scarborough, who sits on the Toronto Transit Commission, calls the deal the TTC struck with its unions yesterday “quicksand.” He calls it “madness.” He calls it “Pandora’s box.” And yet at a TTC meeting Wednesday he will ratify it, because “We have labour peace and the city is running.” National PostThat sounds like extortion: "Pay us what we ask or we'll make life hell for you." The only solution is to declare public transit an essential service and take away their right to strike. OTOH, does the Toronto transit have trouble recruiting? According to the article, a driver earns about $26/hour which is about $50,000/year. As usual in this kind of work, seniority decides everything. To get to the cushy jobs takes half a lifetime. Quote
Qwerty Posted April 22, 2008 Report Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) The TTC needs to be an essential service therefore making strikes illegal. Many of these people are overpaid. $60,000/year to take tickets in a booth? Gimme a break. The unions in this country have way too much power. It's time the government stepped in to limit the power the unions have right now. The TTC has turned into a huge bureaucracy that also need to be slimmed down. A private company would never behave in this manner. Edited April 22, 2008 by Qwerty Quote
margrace Posted April 22, 2008 Report Posted April 22, 2008 The TTC needs to be an essential service therefore making strikes illegal.Many of these people are overpaid. $60,000/year to take tickets in a booth? Gimme a break. The unions in this country have way too much power. It's time the government stepped in to limit the power the unions have right now. The TTC has turned into a huge bureaucracy that also need to be slimmed down. A private company would never behave in this manner. Oh interesting, ever looked at what the Auto workers are paid. Isn't that private? Quote
Qwerty Posted April 22, 2008 Report Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) Oh interesting, ever looked at what the Auto workers are paid. Isn't that private? Same problem, the unions are too strong. We need to pass legislation to limit the unions' power across the board. The labour unions are the bane of civilized society and need to be dealt with. Edited April 22, 2008 by Qwerty Quote
WarBicycle Posted April 22, 2008 Report Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) I didn't write that the driver was 'brainless', I wrote that the job was a 'no-brainer'. Security guards a/k/a 'rent-a-cop' also have to deal with an unruly public and thieves, but are paid according to skill level and training required of them to perform their duties. Edited April 22, 2008 by WarBicycle Quote
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