RCMP raids Tory party headquarters

[mikedavid00]

Tell me who they stole from. The case is still before the courts, so your grandstanding is premature. The rest of your post is boring. Could you at least use your imagination?

Do you feel what they did was the morally right thing to do and nobble for the future leading party of Canada?

[DrGreenthumb]

All that the Tories did is use the spending limits of local candidates to spend nationally.

I hope they did, because that is illegal, and they have been caught. So you are saying that all the tories did is break election financing laws to try and cheat their way into power?

OH IS THAT ALL?

actually its NOT all, there have been many other conservative scandals lately, I wonder what the NEXT one will be.

I'm glad you admit that the conservative party broke the law, that is a good first step.

[jdobbin]

CPC advocates want to deflect from the Headline and the reason why the raids are happening. A good offence is the best defence....

The policy seems to be to blame Elections Canada despite the fact that they appointed the last two Commissioners. Somehow, they have become partisan Liberals determined to steal the Tory election platform according to the talking points issued by the party.

Jdobbin is a proud LPC who often criticises his own party as much as he advocates for what he believes in. I would expect nothing less from someone who has put his name on the line and ran in an election. So before you start being holier then thou, consider running for yourself and experiencing the passion, pain, and scrutiny that comes with an election campaign. Particularly if you do not win.

I have not been a member of either the provincial wing or federal wing of the Liberal Party for a while now. It easy enough to check since my name isn't exactly a secret.

I took a break from things because work was increasingly busy. I was not particularly active in the 2006 election and didn't participate at all in the leadership campaign thereafter. I might become more active in the next months especially if an election is called.

It seems that many on the right think that criticism of their party is a personal attack and decide to personalize. It is probably why they receive warnings about such activity.

As for your comments of the NDP making inroads on the leftwing.

LPs I speak with are worried more about their image then about the NDP. They fear a collapse on the Right. The LPC always campaign on the left to gain an electoral advantage, but their growth is on the right, and their base is more on the right. Should more "Emersons" disappear then "Raes" appear, with is mathematically possible, they are in deep trouble.

I've always thought it was important for balance in the party. It should be interesting to note that Rae has more high powered corporate support than Emerson does.

I'm still not convinced that the Liberals have solved all their recruiting problems for candidates. They are torn in three directions: a) to let ridings chose a local candidate who wins the nomination; b ) to attract star candidates, and c) to attract female candidates.

What ends up happening is that no one is happy. The party leadership has to have the final word on candidates but too much intervention is not good.

It is probably too late at this stage before an election to change but the party needs to make sure that they are cultivating future candidates at the local level. This is the best solution to achieving a broader measure of the three priorities. In the past this meant supporting Liberals at the school board level through to the provincial Liberal. It also meant developing Liberal connections in both the business and local community activist level.

And in spite of all this, the CPC has been completely unable to find their footing, avoid controversy and take the lead.

You can see why Harper often doesn't let his ministers speak. People like Flaherty and Bernier run into trouble a fair a bit. Harper himself has probably hurt his cause by making claims that opposition to his plan is supporting terrorism. That argument certainly didn't resonate in the polls for him.

This raid is just another example. Why do many CPC supporters blindly support police activities when investigating others, but cry foul, when the rule of law affects them?

This is why the talking point for the party is that it was Elections Canada and the RCMP was a reluctant participant.

Regardless, the public is not really aware of this incident and it will blow over unless the CPC have done something in the scope of the LP adscam debacle.

As some journalists have pointed out, it chips away at the Tory claim that they do things differently. They bring up Adscam, the Liberals can trot out the video of the raid.

The Tories have already lost one fight against Elections Canada that they went to court about. They might win this fight but as Nik Nanos said last night on CPAC, polling shows Canadians think a lot less of people who use lawsuits all the time.

Edited April 17, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

The fact of the matter is that Canada has too many bureaucratic tribunals, ministries, departments, offices, councils and commissions who all believe that they can decide better than you, me or our elected representatives. This nomenklatura is angry because someone is for once contesting, in a perfectly legitimate way, their ability to exercice arbitrary power.

For once? The Tories are in the courts all the times. They spend a lot of time losing too. They lost on Elections Canada convention spending. They lost on whether they had a deal to pay a candidate to step down in Ottawa. Harper has got lawsuit after lawsuit firing off.

Nik Nanos said yesterday that all his polling shows that Canadians don't like this type of "sue me" type of governance.

We have seen this recently with the Status of Women council, the nuclear oversight organization, the human rights commission and now with Elections Canada. Even the RCMP believed that it was an independent organization free to organize its own affairs its own way.

We know that the Tories hate the judiciary and civil service because they think they are all Liberals. Perhaps if they stopped their free spending program ways, they might actually reduce the size of government.

There was no need to have RCMP officers when the Election Canada sought to search Tory headquarters. There was no need for a raid. Heck, if I understand properly, Elections Canada went twice. This was a prime time show for the cameras.

Just as there was no reason to announce an investigation into Ralph Goodale and income trusts when the RCMP in general hadn't commented on investigations in general in the past. I didn't hear right wingers complaining then when the election was handed to them with a 10 point fall in polls in the week after.

I have the impression that since Bob Rae was elected, the Liberals are getting ready for an election because this and the attacks in the House against Bernier have all the marks of Rat Pack tactics. This is the only way the Liberals can operate in politics. Character assassination, optics and perceptions. At least the NDP has some principles and beliefs. The Liberals believe in nothing but power and they will do absolutely anything to get it.

And the Tories can only divert from their own gaffes and incompetence at the ministerial level. Maybe Harper can sue someone over that.

[mikedavid00]

Geez arbitrary and draconian laws , what kind of A-hole would support something like that?

I thought as far as you CPC'ers were concerned, "The Law is the Law" and all who dare break a law, no matter how stupid, arbitrary, or draconian that law might be it had better be punished by some kind of mandaTORY minimum sentence?

Funny how conservatives aren't so law and ordery when the law is being applied to them.

So tell me again what your position is on arbitrary, draconian or unjust laws? You Conservatives have a lot of nerve calling jdobbin a hypocrite when you make posts like that.

I ultimately agree with this post.

I am probably the most right wing person on this forum. I'm hardcore right wing. So much so that I beleive civil servants should not have the right to vote due to conflict of intrest. Part of being hardcore right wing is having respect for law and order and doing the 'right' thing.

Yes I agree, that particular campaign law might suck. But the meaning of the law was meant to ensure that parties do not do what the conservatives did. This law is followed because federal parties at the immediate national level out of nobility will keep themselves clean from abusing their own laws. Adscam was not at the federal level. Martin using private healthcare clinics was done with his own money on his own time.

Here was a federal, national party trying to poke holes into our laws because they don't agree with them in an attempt to air more national party ads. This behaviour is of the 3rd world do.

On the other hand I also agree with August1991 mostly and am appauled at the Pakistani style of an organized, leaked, police shakedown of gov't affiliates due to political reasons. This happens almost daily in India if you watch the satellite. And it's all over partisan appointed departments and gov't officials. But over there, you go to jail to 'hush' you up. This is no different then what was happening with Musharaff many months back. It's just open corruption.

Now *we* are going through the very same thing in our country. And I hate to say, this started with the CPC's open corruption when they decided to twist and bend our laws to work in their favor and create an uneaven playing field at a national level.

As a conservative, I want everyone who was involved to step down immediately. That goes for Harper especially.

Then we need to work on rebuilding our political system. Stop the appointments, take away power, and remove the power of these regulatory bodies and give them back to the people.

I'm telling you, this Parlementary system and gov't structure won't work without personal nobility. If that is lost at the highest levels, we're heading for corruption that is typical in other contries.

[sharkman]

One problem Mikedavid, you(we) do not yet know the facts yet. All we know is that Elections Canada had a warrant to enter CPC offices and remove some records. This is never called a raid in other applications, no doors were busted down or guns drawn, people handcuffed, etc.

We also know that the media was tipped off as was the Liberal party. Though some here think little of this, it appears that the Liberal party was either tipped off by the EC or the media, both very disturbing possibilities.

We also know that the CPC has taken the EC to court previous to this. It appears that the EC is using its powers to influence this case, another very disturbing possibility.

We don't know what the records seized contain. We don't know yet if the CPC's earlier action of essentially using regional money for a federal ad in that region is wrong. This matter is presently before the courts. The EC did rule it a violation, but the Liberal party did the exact same thing in the same election.

So you, along many Liberal fans, are jumping the gun. You can do whatever you choose, but the facts have yet to come out.

[mikedavid00]

So you, along many Liberal fans, are jumping the gun. You can do whatever you choose, but the facts have yet to come out.

Liberal party and departmental corruption asside, do you feel the CPC did was the morally right thing to do and nobble for the future leading party of Canada?

[sharkman]

Liberal party and departmental corruption asside, do you feel the CPC did was the morally right thing to do and nobble for the future leading party of Canada?

I'm not well acquainted enough with the laws or the actions in question to give a moral judgement on the situation. However, the CPC was well within their rights to appeal the decision to a higher court. Any citizen would have the same right.

If it turns out to be wrong, they should return the 1.whatever million to the regional arms of their party and be done with it.

[Shakeyhands]

There was no need to have RCMP officers when the Election Canada sought to search Tory headquarters. There was no need for a raid. Heck, if I understand properly, Elections Canada went twice. This was a prime time show for the cameras.

Apparently there was though August. If EC believed that the CPC was withholding information or documents, which they must have, they can ask a judge to issue a search warrant.

As far as I know, and I may be corrected, EC doesn't have the authority to execute a search warrant. Perhaps someone can tell us if I am wrong.

[jdobbin]

Apparently there was though August. If EC believed that the CPC was withholding information or documents, which they must have, they can ask a judge to issue a search warrant.

As far as I know, and I may be corrected, EC doesn't have the authority to execute a search warrant. Perhaps someone can tell us if I am wrong.

Only a judge can sign a search warrant. Any time a warrant is issued and authorities sweep in unannounced, it is a raid. It is kind of funny the contortions the right wing are trying to make to say this wasn't a raid but a simple disagreement.

Also, this idea that the Liberals were tipped off by Elections Canada is very serious. If the Tories really believe so, they need to order an RCMP investigation immediately. Otherwise, I think what we are seeing here is a smear pure and simple.

The bogus claims that the Liberals and media were there before the search took place is laughable. It is just about as laughable that the Elections Canada ordered the raid to find out the secret election platform and provide it to the Liberals. Perhaps they ordered it to find the connections to September 11?

Edited April 17, 2008 by jdobbin

[Argus]

Whether by design or by accident, I seriously think the Tories did do it. It is a secret that wouldn't have stayed secret for very long.

It would not have stayed secret for long, but there's no way it leaked within minutes. No, it was leaked deliberately to the media by partisans within Elections Canada.

Don Martin also suggested the Tories leaked Hillier's resignation as a means to put the story of the raid off the front page. I note he doesn't have a sources for that either.

The government is free to announce someone's resignation whenever they feel is the most propitious time. There's nothing wrong with that.

The right wing is convinced there is a

There you go again.

[Argus]

You are certainly in character with your personal attacks.

Now, you have added September 11-like conspiracy theories to the talking points.

Saying your posts are shrill is a judgement not a personal attack.

And the suggestion there are political partisans in the upper level of the civil service is hardly the stuff of conspiracies. It's known fact, and always has been. That's why in other countries all the top civil service heads are replaced after each election by the new party's partisans.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Argus

[jdobbin]

It would not have stayed secret for long, but there's no way it leaked within minutes. No, it was leaked deliberately to the media by partisans within Elections Canada.

Then the Tories have a more serious problem at hand and should order the RCMP to raid Elections Canada.

The government is free to announce someone's resignation whenever they feel is the most propitious time. There's nothing wrong with that.

Shows a pattern of leaking to suit their purposes though, don't it?

There you go again.

The right wing seems at pains to say they are not right wing. What are the Tories and their supporters? Left wing?

Edited April 17, 2008 by jdobbin

[Argus]

Translation: Uh oh... they're on to us... QUICK trot out the Adscam stuff!!!!!

Given the dispute between the Tories and Elections Canada has been public knowledge for months now, including a lawsuit launched by the Tories against Elections Canada, to say "they're on to us" is disingenuous at best.

As for the Adscam, which involved outright theft, and which almost the entirety of the current senior Liberal party leadership were involved - it isn't going away until they leave.

[jdobbin]

Saying your posts are shrill is a judgement not a personal attack.

And the suggestion there are political partisans in the upper level of the civil service is hardly the stuff of conspiracies. It's known fact, and always has been. That's why in other countries all the top civil service heads are replaced after each election by the new party's partisans.

Saying your posts personalize as a matter of misdirection where others don't is quite accurate and that is why warnings have been issued in regards to the matter.

I'm sure the Tories would very much love to appoint a partisan Tory to Elections Canada. One wonders why they didn't do it the last two times.

[Argus]

CPC advocates want to deflect from the Headline and the reason why the raids are happening. A good offence is the best defence....

You have that backward, but then, one could say that about almost everything you say.

Jdobbin is a proud LPC who often criticises his own party as much as he advocates for what he believes in.

Bullshit. Jdobbin is the worst party partisan on this site, probably the worst this site has ever had or ever will have. He's so utterly predictable I could write his posts beforehand on almost any issue.

And the sad fact is he could too, and probably does.

[Argus]

Not as bad as the CPC looks when caught stealing and cheating on elections all the while claiming to be open and accountable. Never has a government of Canada been so secretive, sneaky and underhanded as these conservatives.

Never! Not in the whole three months of DrGreenthumb's memory!

Which is all he has left because of all the clouds of pot circling his noggin.

[White Doors]

Bullshit. Jdobbin is the worst party partisan on this site, probably the worst this site has ever had or ever will have. He's so utterly predictable I could write his posts beforehand on almost any issue.

And the sad fact is he could too, and probably does.

+1!!

[jdobbin]

Bullshit. Jdobbin is the worst party partisan on this site, probably the worst this site has ever had or ever will have. He's so utterly predictable I could write his posts beforehand on almost any issue.

And the sad fact is he could too, and probably does.

What is utterly predictable is the anger you have every day and the personal attacks on posters that you think is acceptable. It is probably the worst this site has on a daily basis.

[jdobbin]

+1!!

And here is another. A major contribution to this thread that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Edited April 17, 2008 by jdobbin

[sharkman]

You have that backward, but then, one could say that about almost everything you say.

Bullshit. Jdobbin is the worst party partisan on this site, probably the worst this site has ever had or ever will have. He's so utterly predictable I could write his posts beforehand on almost any issue.

And the sad fact is he could too, and probably does.

Yes, I saw his well used, dog eared personal attack card coming from a mile away.

[scribblet]

Actually the whole thing is looking stranger every day, and it won't matter whether or not the CPC is innocent, in the court of public opinion, promoted by the Liberals and the Liberal media, they are guilty, and it's the optics that count for the most part.

Enquiring minds would still like to know how the camera crews got there within minutes, as according to news reports the RCMP cruisers were unmarked and the police scanner didn't broadcast the "visit", so unless the crews and Liberals are telepathic, there is only one explanation for it.

BTW does anyone have the part of the Elections Act that sets out an election advertising spending limits for a political party, and the actual section that restricts the transfer of funds.

[jazzer]

The policy seems to be to blame Elections Canada despite the fact that they appointed the last two Commissioners.

I'm a little confused. By referring to "they" are you talking about the Conservative Party? The Canada Election Act specifies that the commissioner is appointed by the Chief Electoral Officer and the CEO is appointed by parliament. link

Edited April 17, 2008 by jazzer

[mikedavid00]

BTW does anyone have the part of the Elections Act that sets out an election advertising spending limits for a political party, and the actual section that restricts the transfer of funds.

You can transfer the money, but the advertising is not meant to be used for federal gain.

[madmax]

You have that backward, but then, one could say that about almost everything you say.

No but you have just demonstrated the point about offence being a good defence. Nice try.

Bullshit. Jdobbin is the worst party partisan on this site, probably the worst this site has ever had or ever will have. He's so utterly predictable I could write his posts beforehand on almost any issue.

Lets see, he's been a Lib candidate, he posts Liberal things daily, and he supports the Liberal Party. But that isn't what this thread is about... is it.

This is just another round of politics as usual, and if the file remains on the front burner, then the CPC are going to pay a political price.

Opps, sorry, plead ignorance pay fine move on..

Blaming others for CPC activities is wrong headed.