Multiculturism is a huge failure

[On Guard for Thee]

Does multiculturalism only refer to people of colour other than white. What about the Irish, Swedes or hippies? Are there any rules or allowances that we have to provide for them?

I'm no expert, but I think the word refers to a bunch of different cultures. Swedes and hippies included.

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, Brian Mulroney, that great icon on the Left, tripled immigration back in the eighties, as I posted on the immigration thread, in order to solidify the PC party's ties with immigrant and ethnic groups.

You keep repeating this, as if to convince yourself.

In the source article, the party admitted a political objective in supporting immigration however did not make that the primary goal, nor did they allow that there were no other advantages.

[Black Dog]

I don't think I've ever actually tried. My comments about multiculturalism as a policy have all been basically that it doesn't worked, has never worked, and hasn't really even been practiced in Canada anyway. But go on defending your sacred government policies. You wouldn't know what to do if you tried to think on your own.

So, uh: what's the problem?

[Michael Hardner]

http://www.canadian-studies.net/lccs/LJCS/Vol_17/Gundara.pdf

A study from Jagdish Gundara, UNESCO Chair in Intercultural Studies:

Obviously English Canada in the Northern Hemisphere has to come to grips with another European fragment, the more established semi-feudal French Canadian phenomena.

This makes Canada a very different type of nation than Australia in the Southern Hemisphere. The proximity of Canada to the super-power with which it has an unequal relationship and a Free Trade Agreement makes it markedly different from Australia.

It's difficult to find specifics about what makes Canada's programmes of assimilation, cultural preservation and immigration different from others. I think the relative success of these programmes in Canada comes from the factors mentioned here. Confederation brought together three founding peoples, who were already being changed by Scottish, Irish and other cultures so there has never been a monolithic Canada. We didn't have a civil war to forge an identity, only a massive, megalomanic neighbour against which we vainly try to differentiate ourselves.

[jacee]

Does multiculturalism only refer to people of colour other than white. What about the Irish, Swedes or hippies? Are there any rules or allowances that we have to provide for them?

Hippies? We let hippies in?

Well we've really let the country go to pot now!

.

[cybercoma]

So, uh: what's the problem?

The problem is that it doesn't work. Can't you read?

[Argus]

You keep repeating this, as if to convince yourself.

In the source article, the party admitted a political objective in supporting immigration however did not make that the primary goal, nor did they allow that there were no other advantages.

Do you really insist on having the same discussion over multiple threads? Isn't that against the rules?

Fine, as I've already posted in regard to your bringing this up elsewhere, the tripling of immigration happened despite a commons committee holding hearings on the subject and recommending no increase. It happened despite a major study from the economic council of canada finding there would be no subustantial economic benefits of the increase, and despite fears of social upheaval and additional budgetary costs. Cabinet overrode the committee largely, according to the posted report, based on political benefits and hopes of more immigrant votes.

[Argus]

So, uh: what's the problem?

I'm sorry, but I thought this was a discussion forum. Was I wrong there? I didn't start this discussion and I didn't ressurect it from the dead. I entered after MH said that in his experience, the only people who have any issues with multiculturalism don't live around other ethnic groups. I then posted a news item about Richmond BC where people were upset at all Chinese signs, for which profoundly ignorant people called me a racist, a bigot and a ethnophobe, whatever the hell that is.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Do you really insist on having the same discussion over multiple threads? Isn't that against the rules?

I'm only responding to posts of yours where you reference that source.

Fine, as I've already posted in regard to your bringing this up elsewhere, the tripling of immigration happened despite a commons committee holding hearings on the subject and recommending no increase. It happened despite a major study from the economic council of canada finding there would be no subustantial economic benefits of the increase, and despite fears of social upheaval and additional budgetary costs. Cabinet overrode the committee largely, according to the posted report, based on political benefits and hopes of more immigrant votes.

You're inserting the motivation here on your own, which is intellectually dishonest since the minister claimed that it wasn't the motivation and provided counter-points to the anti-immigration arguments.

[guyser]

That's total crap. They are related but completely separate programs. But again, you've never bothered to even think about it because you're intellectually lazy.

Come on now, I told you I dont work in govt. Only the intellectual lazy work civil servant jobs. <----you like that huh?

Oh, I'm sorry. Let's see you wrote "Uh, hey, everything's all good. Stop talking about stuff I don't wanna think about!"

I was merely pointing out that this scary scenario you want to paint is not at all true. We have no cultural/racial strife to speak of, crime is relatively low across the country, newcomers adopt our ways and means all the while keeping some of their own traditions.

Were you expecting a substantive reply to that?

Not at all, however a reply to what I wrote would be fine.

Is it? Who says it couldn't be much better?

It probably could be, but then again whos to say it couldnt be much worse? But all in all, most everyone appears to think this country is well run, safe, welcoming, affordable and a great place to live.

Not to mention you certianly havent proferred anything to suggest how we could make it better.

Who says he $20 billion a year we spend on immigration couldn't be spent on things which would enrich us more?

Hey why not make it $100B if you want to throw around bullshit made up numbers.

Your fraser Inst was debunked, it costs us $450 pp for each Cdn. That works out to $2B. Maybe an extra '0' got mixed in there.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/each-immigrant-costs-canada-450-per-year-report-1.674930

What are you talking about? I swear, you guys will use anything to justify your sacred programs.

First, you don't have any idea what impact immigration has had on my house price.

Sure I do.

Recent Immigrants buy the lower priced houses, and the people they buy from step up a notch. And so on. If no one was buying any lower end housing then prices would remain relatively flat. Modest incrases for sure but nothing near the scale of what we have now. Maybe some dont like that, but they all love the wealth created.

Second, do tell me why you think it's a good thing that house prices in Canada are generally double what they are in the US. I'd really like to hear why you think we're better off paying so much more for our housing than people in Europe or the US or Australia. I mean, I could buy twice the house for half the price in most of the US or Europe.

Avg house price in....

Australia $575g (US $)

USA $324G

CDA $401,500

Europe -wasnt able to find avg price.

You keep saying you could buy twice the house, said it numerous times, but the facts dont back you up . Especially if one is moving from Ott, Van or TO to Sydney they will find it very expensive.

Maybe you are comparing Ottawa to Dubuque Iowa or Rochester NY ?

Yes, but how much is too much? You've done a lot of studying on the matter, I'm sure.

Dont know, and neither do you.

Why? Because I disagree with your unthinking adherence to government policy? Do you even know what that word means, by the way? It seems like its just become an all purpose pejorative to use on anyone who challenges immigration -- or in this case multiculturalism.

Why? Pretty evident in all your postings concerning anything to do with immigration.

Of course the meaning is one who has an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or that which is foreign or strange.

You couldn't pay me enough to live in a shithole like Toronto, where I'd pay three times as much for a house half the size of the one I own and spend an hour on the overcrowded roads anytime I needed to get anywhere.

Shithole? LOL

Does Ottawa still roll the sidewalks up at night? Snore.......

I don't think I've ever actually tried. My comments about multiculturalism as a policy have all been basically that it doesn't worked, has never worked, and hasn't really even been practiced in Canada anyway.

Please let us know when you plan to do that. So far....epic fail.

Your quoted costs are ridiculous forming the basis of your xeno rant.

Scared. Best stay in that sleepy burb of yours. The rest of Canada can enjoy the diversity that has been brought to us by others.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Guyser2

[Argus]

Come on now, I told you I dont work in govt. Only the intellectual lazy work civil servant jobs. <----you like that huh?

I don't work for the government so I'm not sure why you think that's a clever retort.

I was merely pointing out that this scary scenario you want to paint

Ahhh, this is about the scary scenario I'm trying to paint!

What scary scenario? Would you be a good fellow, go back and find what scary scenarios I've spoken about?

It probably could be, but then again whos to say it couldnt be much worse? But all in all, most everyone appears to think this country is well run, safe, welcoming, affordable and a great place to live.

Maybe I just have higher standards. And read more than comic books.

Not to mention you certianly havent proferred anything to suggest how we could make it better.

I haven't tried. I've merely pointed out that your mindless faith in "Multiculturalism" as the great savior of Canada lacks, well, any evidence whatsoever to support it.

Your fraser Inst was debunked, it costs us $450 pp for each Cdn. That works out to $2B. Maybe an extra '0' got mixed in there.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/each-immigrant-costs-canada-450-per-year-report-1.674930

Or not.

This study concludes that J&P’s lower estimate is due mainly to their choice of a different immigrant cohort and assumptions about the immigrants’ absorption of government spending on pure public goods, education, and public housing.

After taking into account some new data and some issues raised by J&P, this study presents new estimates that show that the fiscal burden imposed by the average recent immigrants is $6,000, which for all immigrants is a total of between $16 billion and $23 billion per year, figures virtually identical to those found in our earlier study.

This study also rejects arguments made by J&P that immigrants are needed to meet labour shortages, that they bring productivity-increasing economies of scale, and that their children will repay the fiscal burden. New evidence does not provide any grounds for optimism that the offspring of recent immigrants are going to be able to earn enough to compensate current and future generations of Canadians for the fiscal transfers made to their parents by existing Canadians.

http://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/stories/2012/sfu-people-in-the-news-march-15-2012.html

Recent Immigrants buy the lower priced houses, and the people they buy from step up a notch. And so on. If no one was buying any lower end housing then prices would remain relatively flat. Modest incrases for sure but nothing near the scale of what we have now. Maybe some dont like that, but they all love the wealth created.

Maybe bankers and developers do, but ordinary people who find themselves locked out of the housing market would probably give you quite an argument. Nor can I find any realistic scenario in which high housing costs are helpful to a society or to a nation's economy.

You keep saying you could buy twice the house, said it numerous times, but the facts dont back you up

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/housing/price-gap-between-canada-us-homes-hits-record/article18118369/#dashboard/follows/

http://ycharts.com/indicators/sales_price_of_existing_homes

Canadian housing costs are roughly double US housing costs.

Why? Pretty evident in all your postings concerning anything to do with immigration.

The only thing pretty evident is that I disapprove of immigration as it currently is being run, based on evidence, and that you defend it wholeheartedly without spending so much as ten seconds to consider why.

Of course the meaning is one who has an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or that which is foreign or strange.

I've never said anything to suggest that. I think you're simply reflexively outraged that anyone dares to challenge multiculturalism and, lacking any information upon which to base an intelligent defense you resort to name calling because, well, it makes you feel good.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Argus

[guyser]

I don't work for the government so I'm not sure why you think that's a clever retort.

My apologies then , I wasnt aware that you changed jobs in the last month. You are on record in the Union thread saying you work in govt. ....twice.

Now whos being clever?

Ahhh, this is about the scary scenario I'm trying to paint!

What scary scenario? Would you be a good fellow, go back and find what scary scenarios I've spoken about?

The scenario that this country is going downhill, that this country immigration policies is putting us at risk, that these changes (reference the huge numbers of Richmond BC'ers <actually very very few> upset over a few chinese signs)are ruining the country.

Maybe I just have higher standards. And read more than comic books.

Your high standards are creating a scenario that doesnt exist in any measurable ways.

I haven't tried. I've merely pointed out that your mindless faith in "Multiculturalism" as the great savior of Canada lacks, well, any evidence whatsoever to support it.

Its not a question of faith. Its a question of what is or has transpired to suggest it has failed. Nothing has been shown to suggest it has failed , you certainly havent shown anything remotely close that would indicate failure.

But anyone can look around and see peaceful, respectful, happy people living their busy lives absent of cultural/racial strife.

Or not.

LOL, what the hell?

That link says they redid the report, and its much lower, $16B, but wait then it goes into unemployment figures and wages. So costs of Govt to immigrants includes those figures, but excludes them from costs to the rest of the country?

Yea...methinks the Fraser is full of shit.

Maybe bankers and developers do,

Im loving it. Both home and cottage have gone up by multiples. The house has more than doubled in just over 10 years, by the end of next year it will have tripled. The cottage has increased in value by a factor of 16. Not bad huh?

Oh, Im not a banker nor a developer.

but ordinary people who find themselves locked out of the housing market would probably give you quite an argument. Nor can I find any realistic scenario in which high housing costs are helpful to a society or to a nation's economy.

Yea so what? It has always been thus. It is certainly harder these days, but that may be more a lifestyle choice plenty of the young dont want to make (saving )

Canadian housing costs are roughly double US housing costs.

Oh...I was pretty sure you said you could buy twice the house in Aus and the US.

Now its housing costs. Dont buy in NJ or Texas (Dallas) They pay far more in housing costs vis a vis prop tax than we will ever pay.

And guess what? That cottage of mine may become unaffordable should the costs keep rising vs the value of services recd along with upkeep. Pay Prop taxes well in excess of $6000 and get no water sewer plowing nor garbage pickup. Woo Hoo! Maybe if we kick out some immigrants I can keep it huh?

The only thing pretty evident is that I disapprove of immigration as it currently is being run, based on evidence

What evidence? The cost? Because someone in a hotel sevice job couldnt answer a question in English? Because as you have aged and surrounded yourself in whitelyville and like it? (nothing wrong with that for the most part)

I've never said anything to suggest that.

:lol:

I think you're simply reflexively outraged that anyone dares to challenge multiculturalism and,

I may get outraged when someone makes any attempt to back up something thats failed when one need only look around and see how well it has worked.

Call me if someone tries ...k ?

[WestCoastRunner]

Call me if someone tries ...k ?

I can't possibly improve on that response.

[Michael Hardner]

My apologies then , I wasnt aware that you changed jobs in the last month. You are on record in the Union thread saying you work in govt. ....twice.

Now whos being clever?

Guyser, don't bring somebody's job into your arguments. Everybody has a right to their opinion no matter where they work.

[Argus]

My apologies then , I wasnt aware that you changed jobs in the last month. You are on record in the Union thread saying you work in govt. ....twice.

I used to work for CRA. That's certainly true. I began to dislike my job, however, and the idiots in charge of things. i never raised my voice in ten years at work, but started having yelling matches with my boss because he was indecisive and kept making ridiculous demands. I eventually decided I not only didn't like my job I didn't need it and could make, as it runed out, five times more working as a consultant.

And how is this relevent to the discussion other than to provide you with something to snear at?

The scenario that this country is going downhill, that this country immigration policies is putting us at risk, that these changes (reference the huge numbers of Richmond BC'ers <actually very very few> upset over a few chinese signs)are ruining the country.

First of all, have the integrity to admit you were just making up the 'scary scenarios' stuff. Man up.

Second, I'm through talking about immigration on this topic. There is another topic where I will talk about immigration. I'm sure you can find it.

As for Richmond BC. I posted in response to MH's statement that only people in areas without ethnic diversity had any concerns. Contrary to your dishonest interpretation, enough people were concerned that the city council voted unanimiously to look into how they could ban non-English signs.

This is more than sufficient evidence to counter MH's statement which is the only reason it was posted.

Your high standards are creating a scenario that doesnt exist in any measurable ways.

Its not a question of faith. Its a question of what is or has transpired to suggest it has failed. Nothing has been shown to suggest it has failed

Well, you see, that's the thing when you have a program with no measurable criteria for success. You can't say it failed or succeded. When I was with the government any new program or change required, among other things, a detailed high level business requirements document. I wrote a number of them. Goals and measurable criteria are always integral, but what is the goal here and how can it be measured?

We know what multicuturalism is. It's supposed to foster just what is says MULTIPLE CULTURES.

Multiculturalism is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. - wiki

It's not some feel good policy of respecting other cultures. It's designed to help preserve those other cultures, which naturally means slowing integration. I think the government came up with the term 'community of communities' to describe this at one point. The idea being we'd all live in our separate little communities with peace and respect and brotherhood between us.

But they never followed through on much more than the feel-good statements. Instead they gave some money for ethnic festivals and a few ethnic language classes, and that was it. We do have a lot of cultural diversity, but that's unavoidable given we have the highest percentage of foreign born in the OECD. But the government has no programs in place designed to preserve those foreign cultures.

In the UK they went much further, and in doing so wound up succeeding in preserving those immigrant cultures. This unfortnately meant having, for example, small Pakistans in the UK. Well, what is Pakistan like? Exactly. You had a community of intolerance and religious bigotry and a growing amount of violence betwen them and other 'communities'. You had the government giving credence to local leaders who were utterly at odds with British community values and doing their best to preserve their community's intolerance, bigotry and misogyny. You also had riots and high crime, and people within these communities who said they didn't actually feel much kinship with the British and felt much more with their 'homeland'.

That is why the British PM said multiculturalism had failed in the UK. The same reason the French and German leaders openly announced multiculturalism had failed in their countries.

[Argus]

I can't possibly improve on that response.

That's rather sad, though I doubt you will understand why.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Argus

[guyser]

Guyser, don't bring somebody's job into your arguments. Everybody has a right to their opinion no matter where they work.

)Ok I wont.

Please let me know when I 'bring somebody's job into your arguments' because I sure as hell havent yet.

[guyser]

I used to work for CRA. That's certainly true.

Congrats then and I hope it proves fruitful.

And how is this relevent to the discussion other than to provide you with something to snear at?

Funny thing is I dont snear at anyones job. But of course it was a little tit for tat as you well know.

Moving on...

First of all, have the integrity to admit you were just making up the 'scary scenarios' stuff. Man up.

If I thought it was made up I would , but you paint such a scenario, not so much in words but in innuendo.

As for Richmond BC. I posted in response to MH's statement that only people in areas without ethnic diversity had any concerns. Contrary to your dishonest interpretation, enough people were concerned that the city council voted unanimiously to look into how they could ban non-English signs.

So 'look into' means what for the overwhelming majority there? Nothing really, Councils do a lot of silly posturing to appease the small ....nay very small numbers of people who may be concerned.

Well, you see, that's the thing when you have a program with no measurable criteria for success. You can't say it failed or succeded.

Ya know, I havent the foggiest idea anymore what you are looking for or arguing for.

We know what multicuturalism is. It's supposed to foster just what is says MULTIPLE CULTURES.

Whether or not funds are allocated to achieve this, it exists without concerns already. Where is the problem areas?

.

In the UK they went much further, and in doing so wound up succeeding in preserving those immigrant cultures. This unfortnately meant having, for example, small Pakistans in the UK. Well, what is Pakistan like? Exactly. You had a community of intolerance and religious bigotry and a growing amount of violence betwen them and other 'communities'. You had the government giving credence to local leaders who were utterly at odds with British community values and doing their best to preserve their community's intolerance, bigotry and misogyny. You also had riots and high crime, and people within these communities who said they didn't actually feel much kinship with the British and felt much more with their 'homeland'.

That is why the British PM said multiculturalism had failed in the UK. The same reason the French and German leaders openly announced multiculturalism had failed in their countries.

BD has already covered this. France and the UK didnt try what we are doing Edited November 13, 2014 by Guyser2

[Black Dog]

In the UK they went much further, and in doing so wound up succeeding in preserving those immigrant cultures. This unfortnately meant having, for example, small Pakistans in the UK. Well, what is Pakistan like? Exactly. You had a community of intolerance and religious bigotry and a growing amount of violence betwen them and other 'communities'. You had the government giving credence to local leaders who were utterly at odds with British community values and doing their best to preserve their community's intolerance, bigotry and misogyny. You also had riots and high crime, and people within these communities who said they didn't actually feel much kinship with the British and felt much more with their 'homeland'.

That is why the British PM said multiculturalism had failed in the UK. The same reason the French and German leaders openly announced multiculturalism had failed in their countries.

Germany, France and England all started experience significant immigration from, respectively, Turkey, Algeria and Pakistan starting in the 1960s. At no point between then and the late 1990s/early 00s were any real efforts made to integrate these communities into the mainstream, which means immigrant enclaves were a fact of life long before multicultural policies were pursued. There's no other way of saying this, but blaming feel good multicultural policies for the failure of immigrant communities in these countries to integrate is completely ass-backwards.

[Michael Hardner]

Please let me know when I 'bring somebody's job into your arguments' because I sure as hell havent yet.

"You are on record in the Union thread saying you work in govt."

There you go.

[guyser]

There you go.

Not by a long shot.

[Argus]

If I thought it was made up I would , but you paint such a scenario, not so much in words but in innuendo.

Oh, look at the backpedaling. So now I'm painting a scary scenario by innuendo alone?! Man, what a wordsmith I am!

So 'look into' means what for the overwhelming majority there? Nothing really, Councils do a lot of silly posturing to appease the small ....nay very small numbers of people who may be concerned.

In what world? Council has instructed their lawyers, by unanimous vote, to look into how it can be legally done. That's not posturing, and you don't posture by appealing to a tiny minority anyway. Further, the fact that there was complaints at all, however few in number, contradicts MHs' statement, which was why I posted it. Any further interpretation on it is yours alone but unrelated to that fact.

Ya know, I havent the foggiest idea anymore what you are looking for or arguing for.

This is a discussion forum, a place for the exchange of opinions. I don't need to feel desperately, emotionally committed to an argument to make it. I don't even have to care all that much. MH said that the only people who oppose multiculturalism are those who don't live around different ethnic communities, which to me sounds way to much like the rose coloured glasses so many on the Left like to wear. So I posted an item that flat out contradicted that statement.

And that's basically all I've done since this topic was ressurected other than fend of the freaked out Lefties who are horrified at the thought not everyone loves multiculturalism.

BD has already covered this. France and the UK didnt try what we are doing

BD has no real clue what actions they took on the multiculturalism scene, and he spoke of France, not the UK anyway.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

Germany, France and England all started experience significant immigration from, respectively, Turkey, Algeria and Pakistan starting in the 1960s. At no point between then and the late 1990s/early 00s were any real efforts made to integrate these communities into the mainstream,

Did you not read the definition I posted of what multiculturalism entails? Under multiculturalism you're not SUPPOSED to make efforts to integrate them! You're supposed to respect their own cultures and deal with them as is! A community of communities! That's the point of it!

[jacee]

Your fraser Inst was debunked, it costs us $450 pp for each Cdn. That works out to $2B. Maybe an extra '0' got mixed in there.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/each-immigrant-costs-canada-450-per-year-report-1.674930

The Fraser Institute produces garbage:

Calculation errors,

unchecked data entry errors,

guesstimates 22% off,

inapproriate comparison groups,

sample suspiciously truncated ...

Major fail.

Sloppy at best ... data fudged to fit their desired conclusions at worst.

Both appear to be true.

.

Edited November 14, 2014 by jacee

[Black Dog]

Did you not read the definition I posted of what multiculturalism entails? Under multiculturalism you're not SUPPOSED to make efforts to integrate them! You're supposed to respect their own cultures and deal with them as is! A community of communities! That's the point of it!

Your definition:

Multiculturalism is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. - wiki

There's no logical reason why promoting cultural diversity and integration into society should be incompatible. Indeed, there's ample evidence right in our own backyard to show that is the case.

Moreover, your argument is basically that Germany et al were unconsciously practicing multiculturalism before such a concept had even been developed and that subsequent turns to explicitly multicultural policies were in fact repudiations of multiculturalism. Or something. It's still unclear. What is clear is that the term multiculturalism encompasses a wide range of policies which can include both cultural balkanization and integration. Without knowing what specific policies we're talking about, the whole discussion is just people talking past each other.