Pariotism

[margrace]

In his book, On Waking a Sleeping Giant, Dave Lindorff tells of his six year stay in China. and say that one of the things he came away with was how generally un-nationalistic and un-patriotic the Chinese were. He says that the Chinese, caught up on the great leap into a capatalist type society had no time for nationalism and patriatism.

He said "When the Chinese Communist Party leaders in Beijing would beat the drum of nationalism over Taiwanese Independance efforts in the 1990's, it evoked mostly yawns among average Chinese people, and in fact to Beijing's embarrassment, a popular computer game featured a war game in which Taiwan defeated the People's Liberation Army.

That all started to change when the US government early in the first term of George W. Bush, taunted the Chinese by flying a spy plane into Chinese air space, damaging a Chinese fighter jet that flew up to intercept it and getting forced down itself on Hainan Island. That incident aroused a lot of anger in ordinary Chinese who felt that the US was pushing their country around, and who felt pride at their county's willingness and ability to stand tough and take the American plane hostage.

And he goes on to talk about the Tibetan problem to day and how it goes back to the Imperialist attacks by the west in the 19th century.

I have observed a huge increase in Canadian nationalism since Bush so impertantly ignored Canada's help in 9/11 and of the increasing pressure on our ecomomy by such things as their assertions that all BSE cows came from Canada to list one item. There had been an overt lack of respect for Canadians in general by this govenment.

Will Bush learn a lesson, I doubt it, he is right and everyone else is wrong and nothing will change that. Will a new goverment in the US make any difference. I think not, historically the Deomocratic party has been more antaganistic towards Canada than the Republica party has.

[oreodontist]

Pariotism?

Why shouldn't the Chinese raise parrots?

[bush_cheney2004]

....Will Bush learn a lesson, I doubt it, he is right and everyone else is wrong and nothing will change that. Will a new goverment in the US make any difference. I think not, historically the Deomocratic party has been more antaganistic towards Canada than the Republica party has.

This is contradictory.....you first said it started with George W. Bush! EP-3's were collecting military intel on China long before President Bush's tenure. OTOH, since your facts on this incident are confused....maybe you do mean "parrots".

Edited April 12, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

In his book, On Waking a Sleeping Giant, Dave Lindorff tells of his six year stay in China. and say that one of the things he came away with was how generally un-nationalistic and un-patriotic the Chinese were. He says that the Chinese, caught up on the great leap into a capatalist type society had no time for nationalism and patriatism. [...]

You might want to read "Hegemon: China's Plan to Dominate Asia and the World" by Steven Mosher. China's trend towards nationalism started before Bush.

That all started to change when the US government early in the first term of George W. Bush, taunted the Chinese by flying a spy plane into Chinese air space, damaging a Chinese fighter jet that flew up to intercept it and getting forced down itself on Hainan Island.

The U.S. plane was in international airspace, well within it's rights; and when two planes collide, both planes are damaged. In other words, the Chinese plane damaged the U.S. plane also.

I agree that Bush has damaged U.S. relations with other nations, but China was well on the way towards nationalism before Bush, and I think Chinese dominance is something to be leary of.

[eyeball]

You might want to read "Hegemon: China's Plan to Dominate Asia and the World" by Steven Mosher. China's trend towards nationalism started before Bush.

The U.S. plane was in international airspace, well within it's rights; and when two planes collide, both planes are damaged. In other words, the Chinese plane damaged the U.S. plane also.

I agree that Bush has damaged U.S. relations with other nations, but China was well on the way towards nationalism before Bush, and I think Chinese dominance is something to be leary of.

I think the sun is setting on the Age of Super-powers myself, the world is just too big for any one nation to dominate and natural resources are just becoming to scarce to pull it off. The opportunity for conventionally dominating the planet, i.e. militarily or even economically is probably behind us. Domination really is passe, the only way a world-wide government will arise is if people willingly join one, and that will only occur when the cost of maintaining 180 odd seperate national governments becomes so inefficient that mergers become the only rational choice.

That's not to say that China's nationalism will be a dangerous thing but the effects will likely be local. Their one child policy has resulted in an over-abundance of young males and a similar over-abundance of males has also occured in neighbouring India. The internal pressure these cohorts cause in their respective countries will prompt their governments to try and export them, sort of like the Mongols had to do with their young upcoming 'Turks'. Its more likely India and China will take each other out fighting over resources (water mostly and territory), assuming they don't wipe themselves out with their pollution first.

Our biggest worry here in North America will be how to cope with our own failing attempts to dominate the planet. I think we should seek a merger with the EU myself because they have more experience at merging and the US will probably be a real die-hard and one of the very last to join anyone else.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Our biggest worry here in North America will be how to cope with our own failing attempts to dominate the planet. I think we should seek a merger with the EU myself because they have more experience at merging and the US will probably be a real die-hard and one of the very last to join anyone else.

The US will never "join anyone else"....its constitution precludes and such arrangement. Nevertheless, the US has "joined" and spent far more blood and money that other North American sovereigns on international efforts.

[eyeball]

The US will never "join anyone else"....its constitution precludes and such arrangement.

Every party needs a pooper I guess.

[bush_cheney2004]

Every party needs a pooper I guess.

Yes, otherwise there wouldn't be a party at all. The USA never had the continental European anxiety like Canada, and Mexico didn't either.

[eyeball]

So, will you be okay with being the only pooper or will you lash out in fear at everyone else? Would it help if we paint our helicopters something other than black? Something really inoffensive...pink probably wouldn't be a good choice, that would just make you even more phobic, but how about green (non-military of course)?

[bush_cheney2004]

So, will you be okay with being the only pooper or will you lash out in fear at everyone else? Would it help if we paint our helicopters something other than black? Something really inoffensive...pink probably wouldn't be a good choice, that would just make you even more phobic, but how about green (non-military of course)?

"We" don't care what color you paint your "helicopters" (from the USA or Europe). I think PM Harper just proved that if you stamp your feet and cry long enough, both Europe and the US will give you some to paint.

Canada needs "we" more than "me".

[Leafless]

The US will never "join anyone else"....its constitution precludes and such arrangement. Nevertheless, the US has "joined" and spent far more blood and money that other North American sovereigns on international efforts.

Why is this BC?

Don't you think somelse deserves a shot at the title?

Or does the U.S. have a monoply on the world?

[bush_cheney2004]

Why is this BC?

Because the US was founded by violently separating from your former empire and monarchy...the paperwork reflects a desire for...ummmm...independence.

Don't you think somelse deserves a shot at the title?

There is no title....just results.

Or does the U.S. have a monoply on the world?

No, but the US does have a monopoly on US interests.

[August1991]

It seems rather odd to start a thread about patriotism with an example from China. The Chinese government amounts a dictatorship and its politicians are largely indifferent to what ordinary Chinese think.

The US is a victory for the individual and if one speaks of American patriotism, then it is the patriotism freely given and just as freely denied, if the individual so wishes. If we are speaking of patriotism for an individual's freedom to choose, then I guess I'm a patriot.

----

Margrace, I just knew that you would somehow find a way to blame George W. Bush for something. It appears now that Bush is to blame for Chinese patriotism and Canadian patriotism.

Samuel Johnson said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. What is called patriotism elsewhere is called nationalism in Canada. Nationalism would tear this country apart and it's a sentiment that federal politicians approach with care. IME, what passes for nationalism in Ottawa is little more than southern Ontario nationalism.

As to China, IME, and here I know that I am grossly generalizing, the mainland Chinese share with Parisians and Japanese a superiority complex. The Chinese can claim however to have had a civilization and language for about 5000 years.

Edited April 13, 2008 by August1991

[capricorn]

The Chinese can claim however to have had a civilization and language for about 5000 years.

I agree. In the history of mankind, it seems to me that China has had one of the longest lasting nationalistic history.

I have known and worked with many Canadians of Chinese descent. What struck me is their work ethic, loyalty, friendliness, honesty and sense of humour. Sort of like, you know, ordinary Canadians.

[Regulus de Leo]

That all started to change when the US government early in the first term of George W. Bush, taunted the Chinese by flying a spy plane into Chinese air space, damaging a Chinese fighter jet that flew up to intercept it and getting forced down itself on Hainan Island. That incident aroused a lot of anger in ordinary Chinese who felt that the US was pushing their country around, and who felt pride at their county's willingness and ability to stand tough and take the American plane hostage.

George Bush flew a spyplane into Chinese airspace? (you might work on your syntax)

Is this thread just an attempt to bash George W? Or are you seriously suggesting the 2000 year old sleeping dragon was awakened by a single stray aircraft?

[bush_cheney2004]

George Bush flew a spyplane into Chinese airspace? (you might work on your syntax)

Is this thread just an attempt to bash George W? Or are you seriously suggesting the 2000 year old sleeping dragon was awakened by a single stray aircraft?

All of the above....President Bush will be leaving office next January and they are scrambling to get last minute pot shots in, having been denied a glorious impeachment.

I wonder who they will blame once he is gone?

[August1991]

I wonder who they will blame once he is gone?

There'll be a video of McCain dozing off on Youtube and away we'll go.

The American Left is a bit like Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football. They obsess on the ball and can't quite figure out why their well-aimed kicks never make it go anywhere.