In Ontario hourly wage goes up

[Drea]

That's why I think tuition should be based on grades. The your grades throughout highschool, the lower your tuition should be.

Back inh 1988 I took a $20,000 college loan, but, because I maintained a high GPA, I only had to pay back 50% of it.

the $20,000 was for 2 years tuition and books plus living expenses. I bought a beater car, paid a year's rent and worked part time as a waitress while I went to school.

My first job (working in my field of study) -- nobody else would take it... was for $5 an hour. Best thing I ever did was take that job for that summer. Everything I've ever done since stems from that Marketing Assistant job.

[M.Dancer]

An old girl friend back in the early 70s went to Mcgill. She got a loan and bursary as well as a well paying part time job. For 3 years she got those loans and bursaries....she put them into GICs....and when she graduated she paid them pack (zero interest) immediately and walked away with the few hundrfed in interest.

S\he is now a lawyer....

[oreodontist]

An old girl friend back in the early 70s went to Mcgill. She got a loan and bursary as well as a well paying part time job. For 3 years she got those loans and bursaries....she put them into GICs....and when she graduated she paid them pack (zero interest) immediately and walked away with the few hundrfed in interest.

S\he is now a lawyer....

I attended McGill from 73 to 77. I ate out maybe once a year...zero spent on a coffee or even a donut. Had no phone. Fixed up a 12 inch B&W TV, etc. I wasn't the exception but the norm anong my friends I'd knock on business doors along St. Lawrence and got maybe 10 hours a week work at 1.50 or so an hour...the best work was from food stores and vendors because they would often thrown in a bit of food.

Today? being poor means you have an old car, cheap cell phone and 2 year old computer...and not enough cash to fly home for Christmas.

[blueblood]

The gov't subsidizing post secondary is a bad idea. I relate it to the minimum wage deal. If everyone is getting post secondary degrees, then it's not worth anything. In a few years a degree might not be worth anything, and then it might work up to PhD's. 50 years ago, having a grade 12 was a big deal and I don't think people in those days were worse off than we are now.

Having more and more people rot in post secondary accumulating all that debt is one way to hold people back. I find it one of the bitter ironies of our country today.

[oreodontist]

The gov't subsidizing post secondary is a bad idea. I relate it to the minimum wage deal. If everyone is getting post secondary degrees, then it's not worth anything. In a few years a degree might not be worth anything, and then it might work up to PhD's. 50 years ago, having a grade 12 was a big deal and I don't think people in those days were worse off than we are now.

Having more and more people rot in post secondary accumulating all that debt is one way to hold people back. I find it one of the bitter ironies of our country today.

Those are words of wisdom.

Now we have 20 year olds in Alberta earning a hundred thousand plus in the oilpatch. It's hard to use the old arguments about a post secondary education. Our 18 year-old nephew is saving 3 thousand a month....supposedly so he can study engineering next year, but, what will a Bach in sciences qualify him for? We know a few engineers and they are working along side high school dropouts from Newfoundland in the oilpatch.

University and college education should certainly be lauded but as much as path for self-development as for a career.

[M.Dancer]

I attended McGill from 73 to 77. I ate out maybe once a year...zero spent on a coffee or even a donut. Had no phone. Fixed up a 12 inch B&W TV, etc. I wasn't the exception but the norm anong my friends I'd knock on business doors along St. Lawrence and got maybe 10 hours a week work at 1.50 or so an hour...the best work was from food stores and vendors because they would often thrown in a bit of food.

Today? being poor means you have an old car, cheap cell phone and 2 year old computer...and not enough cash to fly home for Christmas.

Oh absolutely. I rememeber when if we went to a bar like Darwin's or Wiinston Churchill it was a rare occasion. More likely we had a few beers at home or had friends over for spagetti. Some bars on Bishop didn't even let you in if you looked like a student...deja vu on Bishop had a door man to keep them out cause they would come in to see Bowswer and Blue, but one beer and spend the night...

When I moved to toronto years later I was amazed to find bars near UofT that catered to students...where do they get the cash I wondered, given that I had a good job and couldn't party as much as they did.

[Zachary Young]

Raising the minimum wage does not raise wage rates at all - what it does is increase unemployment (as others have pointed out).

The solution to higher wages - and it is a desirable goal! - is capital accumulation. Not as simplistic or sexy as a minimum wage, perhaps, but it works. Sadly we are encouraging capital consumption currently, which is a big reason behind the freezes in productivity we have witnessed in recent years. Capital accumulation is a product of savings, so we need a higher level of savings in our society - probably the best way to do this is end inflation (return to a gold standard) and get rid of the income tax (so people have more money to save).

[madmax]

Raising the minimum wage does not raise wage rates at all - what it does is increase unemployment (as others have pointed out).

Raising the Minimum wage has Never, EVER increased unemployment. Since the Minimum Wage has been around for a Century, if what you were saying were true, we would all be unemployed by now.

The Minimum wage is set as the minimum standard to earn a living at the bottom end of the Labour Market. We do not have any other mechanism to address this, although there are options, and the market will not address a living wage.

Should we ever be in the position where the market outstrips the minimum wage, then there is proof that people are earning in excess of what is required to survive. This does occur in regions experiencing high labour costs, strong labour demand, and the need for general labour.

"Others" will often quote perception over reality.

Going back over time before the minimum wage, unemployment was high, wages were low.

[Renegade]

Raising the Minimum wage has Never, EVER increased unemployment.

Any proof of that? Do you have evidence of what employment rates would be like had minimum wages not inceased or even be present?

There are many factors which effect employment rates. Wage rates are only one. Economic theory suggest that setting a wage-rate higher than its natural equilibrum point, will affect demand for that labour and hence employment rates.

[madmax]

Economic theory suggest that setting a wage-rate higher than its natural equilibrum point, will affect demand for that labour and hence employment rates.

Which is why it remains below it's natural equilibrium. Every Labour Market also has a black market, where people work for less then the minimum wage. Every Labour Market has systems that allow for Contracts and formulas where it is very possible to earn less then the minimum wage. Should these systems exceed the minimum wage rate for labour demand, then there is problem with the minumum wage or possibly, the enforcement of the minimum wage.

There is merit to the rest of your comments. Wage rates are only one factor. etc.

What I find interesting about the heading is that it is incorrect. Wages are going down in all sectors except the public sector. Minimum Wage has failed to keep up over the past decade, so there is a converge where wages are dropping (Roughly) from average $23..$17 to $15..$10. (Ontario). Interestingly as the minimum wage increases, it puts competition among workplaces for the same labour pool. Lots of transitition and transient Labour. Keeping wage rates down and costs higher is the expansion of Temporary Employment Agencies, behaving in the manner of Payday Loan enterprises. (but that is a strengthening and relatively new development 15 years) that the majority of Labour market analysts in their ivory towers and universitys have yet to study let alone understand.

So, while you may have responded to my strongly worded comments, I am not in disagreement with your analysis. Infact, you could well expand on it and make very very valid points to add to the discussion.

[Renegade]

Which is why it remains below it's natural equilibrium.

And what is that natural equlibrium point? Obviously the natural equilibrium point for unskilled, unexperienced labour is different and much lower than skilled labour. Also if the minimimium wage legislates a wage which is below the natural equilbrium point, then why is it even necessary, because that would indicate that someone who is getting paid less than the equibrium point, can switch to a higher paying job closer to the equilibrium point.

Every Labour Market also has a black market, where people work for less then the minimum wage. Every Labour Market has systems that allow for Contracts and formulas where it is very possible to earn less then the minimum wage. Should these systems exceed the minimum wage rate for labour demand, then there is problem with the minumum wage or possibly, the enforcement of the minimum wage.

So what you are essentially saying is that if the minimium wage is too high, people will find ways around it or work for cash under the table. This then begs the question, if a minimium wage which is too high is useless because people can find a way around it, and a minimium wage which is too low is essentially useless since people can move to higher paying jobs. Why have minimium wage legislation?

What I find interesting about the heading is that it is incorrect. Wages are going down in all sectors except the public sector. Minimum Wage has failed to keep up over the past decade, so there is a converge where wages are dropping (Roughly) from average $23..$17 to $15..$10. (Ontario). Interestingly as the minimum wage increases, it puts competition among workplaces for the same labour pool. Lots of transitition and transient Labour. Keeping wage rates down and costs higher is the expansion of Temporary Employment Agencies, behaving in the manner of Payday Loan enterprises. (but that is a strengthening and relatively new development 15 years) that the majority of Labour market analysts in their ivory towers and universitys have yet to study let alone understand.

Wages going down is an indication that labourers are not supplying sufficient value to the employers or that employers are finding alternatives such as other labour pools or automation. Why should there be an expectation that providing the same labour there should be increased renumeration over time? Unless labour finds a way to continually be more productive, it is natural and expected that wages should go down.

So, while you may have responded to my strongly worded comments, I am not in disagreement with your analysis.

OK, but you still didn't respond to my challenge of evidence to back your strongly worded comments.

[eyeball]

...i bet there will still be parents more concerned with buying pot than saving...

Or buying beer for that matter...OTOH if prohibition wasn't jacking the price up or if the government were selling it instead of the Hell's Angels...how many hundreds of billions of dollars do you think could have been directed towards more productive areas of the economy?

[mikedavid00]

Most minimun wage jobs are in retail, restaurants, service industries and seasonal work.

...and are the bulk of the new jobs created in Canada (and Alberta) these past few years. Any white collar jobs have been gov't for the most part.

Canada is becoming poorer and this pins right back to immigration IMO.

[fellowtraveller]

QUOTE(madmax @ Apr 30 2008, 09:38 AM)

Every Labour Market also has a black market, where people work for less then the minimum wage. Every Labour Market has systems that allow for Contracts and formulas where it is very possible to earn less then the minimum wage. Should these systems exceed the minimum wage rate for labour demand, then there is problem with the minumum wage or possibly, the enforcement of the minimum wage.

Really? Identify the black market in Alberta today then......

The minimum wage is now $8.40, and virtually no employer can pay that little and stay in business. Typical rates are $11 to $12 for service work.

It enforces itself. Labour is a commodity, the value of skills increases and decreases with supply and demand. And, in other breaking news, the planet is still spinning on its axis. Film at six.

[madmax]

Really? Identify the black market in Alberta today then......

The minimum wage is now $8.40, and virtually no employer can pay that little and stay in business. Typical rates are $11 to $12 for service work.

If one chooses to look, one will find the black market in any commodity, labour included. I am well aware of the labour market conditions in Alberta. It is a great situation to be in, if you are in the Labour pool. Regardless, the size of the Black Market for Labour , expands and contracts with the economy. But it always exists, like any other market force. If you don't know of its existence regardless of the booming nature of the economy, then you don't know where to look or those circles.

You are probably honest, law abiding, work in a good environment or provide work in a good environment.

This is the norm as many people never see experience or know of the black market in Labour.

Do you have an underground Labour market in the Taxi Cab Business? Who is driving in these cabs? Who holds the licences?

Productive activity by illegal immigrants without residence status. They may pay income taxes and other taxes, but must remain underground for fear of deportation.

No illegal immigrants in Alberta?

Mike David00 Welcome to Alberta....

[madmax]

Really? Identify the black market in Alberta today then......

The minimum wage is now $8.40, and virtually no employer can pay that little and stay in business. Typical rates are $11 to $12 for service work.

It enforces itself. Labour is a commodity, the value of skills increases and decreases with supply and demand.

Foreign workers pull disappearing act: employer

The foreign worker program is causing big headaches, says one Calgary employer, who complains that 20 of his employees pulled a disappearing act soon after arriving in the country.

Business owner Owen Colbourne continues to apply to the federal Temporary Foreign Workers Program despite workers leaving without notice in the past.

CTV.ca News Staff

Calgary business owner, Owen Colbourne, has brought in 31 foreign labourers to work at his manufacturing and consulting company in the past 18 months.

But seven people never showed up to work and 13 left without warning. Those 20 missing workers hired by Coltons Consulting and Maintenance are now unaccounted for.

"I don't know what to say. I'm stuck for words. Very disappointed, used is the word," Colbourne told CTV.

I just thought Mikedavid00 might have a field day with this one.

[madmax]

Here is some more...

Expert accuses Ottawa of expanding temporary foreign worker program without enough controls

May 08, 2008 04:30 AM

Nicholas Keung

IMMIGRATION/DIVERSITY REPORTER

Canada's border agency's failure to track down 41,000 illegal migrants may be only the tip of the iceberg as an unknown number of people simply overstay in the country after their visas expire, a security expert warns.

With the federal government's rapid expansion of the temporary foreign worker program, many of these overseas workers may just want to stay here – legally or not – after their work permits end and simply go underground, said Martin Collacott of the Fraser Institute, a national conservative think tank.

"When you have a lot of temporary workers coming from developing countries whose intention is to stay here, you better know what you are doing," Collacott said in an interview from Vancouver yesterday. "That's what we've found in other countries. It takes a large bureaucracy to keep track of them. Right now, I see no sign of that in place."

Ottawa issued 106,750 temporary foreign worker permits in 2006, and 103,000 were issued within the first nine months of 2007. The number is expected to grow with various measures introduced by the Harper government to make it easier for Canadian employers to bring in workers from abroad.

Meanwhile, 15 of the 45 undocumented workers caught working illegally at a Mississauga warehouse Tuesday morning have been released on bonds.

The men and women, aged 25 to 56, came from several undisclosed countries and face charges under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act of working illegally in Canada at SDR Distribution Services. Officials were tipped by an informer earlier this year and began surveillance near the facility at Dixie Rd. and Highway 401 in February, before executing arrest warrants Tuesday morning, the same day the Auditor General released a report criticizing the lagging removal enforcement of illegal migrants from the country

The black market in Labour exists in all Provinces.

[fellowtraveller]

How many 'black market' labour workers are working for mimimum wage or less in Alberta?

of course there is an underground economy, and the vast majoprity of it has nothing to do with cab drivers or illegal immigrants, there is always significant untaxed activity and always will be.

But what does that have to do with minimum wages?

Edited May 15, 2008 by fellowtraveller

[M.Dancer]

How many 'black market' labour workers are working for mimimum wage or less in Alberta?

of course there is an underground economy, ....

Yes I think there is a qualifier....while black market could also be underground....

....there was an instance east of Toronto where a restauranteur was hiring waitresses as contract workers...he paid them nothing (zilch, diddly squat..) and they were supposed to work for tips AND...pay him a percentage. I believe he operate dthat way for about a month before it came out and he was put in order....

On the otherhand, there is a huge percentage of people who work under the table...I knew a cook who made a decent wage and was always grabbinbg extra shifts for the overtime and then grumbling about the taxes he lost ....so he worked out an arrangement with the owner, he worked x many hours a week overtime under the table ...but instead of time and a half (22.50)he got about 2 dollars more an hour

[madmax]

Yes I think there is a qualifier....while black market could also be underground....

....there was an instance east of Toronto where a restauranteur was hiring waitresses as contract workers...he paid them nothing (zilch, diddly squat..) and they were supposed to work for tips AND...pay him a percentage. I believe he operate dthat way for about a month before it came out and he was put in order....

On the otherhand, there is a huge percentage of people who work under the table...I knew a cook who made a decent wage and was always grabbinbg extra shifts for the overtime and then grumbling about the taxes he lost ....so he worked out an arrangement with the owner, he worked x many hours a week overtime under the table ...but instead of time and a half (22.50)he got about 2 dollars more an hour

You are correct with the assertion, the analyses and the examples.

[madmax]

How many 'black market' labour workers are working for mimimum wage or less in Alberta?

Why don't you find out. Right now labour demand is so tight, that you would be looking at, transient labour, domestic help, etc.

But I am sure you believe that there isn't any, Ever, in the entire province.

[CANADIEN]

There should be a minimum wage, and it should be high enough that a person who works 40 to 50 hours a week has enough money left after taxes to pay for an appartment that meets basic living standards and put food on the table.

In Toronto, there is a growing number of people who are working 70-80 hours a week and then line up at the Food Bank. And this is not the only place where it happens. Clearly not acceptable.

[Leafless]

There should be a minimum wage, and it should be high enough that a person who works 40 to 50 hours a week has enough money left after taxes to pay for an appartment that meets basic living standards and put food on the table.

In Toronto, there is a growing number of people who are working 70-80 hours a week and then line up at the Food Bank. And this is not the only place where it happens. Clearly not acceptable.

So the truth is finally coming out that immigration is not alleviating the fact home grown Canadians were 'not kidding' when they refused minimum wage jobs for the same reason, much less raise a family.

Canada will be one big cold slum country yet, thanks to incompetent politicians including their immigration fantasies.

Edited May 18, 2008 by Leafless

[fellowtraveller]

Why don't you find out. Right now labour demand is so tight, that you would be looking at, transient labour, domestic help, etc.

But I am sure you believe that there isn't any, Ever, in the entire province.

Can't back up your assertions, so you get defensive and aggressive at the same time.....Typical.

There is undoubtedly a large underground economy in Alberta and many other places and always will be. It takes no effort to find people who will work for less if paid in cash, particluarly in trades and construction. Two different prices : cash or cheque.

But they don't work for less than minimum wage-far from it, what would be the pint? They work for less than the big money charged in legal transactions, not for tiny amounts of money.

Try again, and work a little harder next time to coax some reality into your ideology..

[Topaz]

I was talking to a friend in Windsor On and she told me some of her friends went out to Alberta to work and they found that even though the wages are higher than other provinces, the cost of living is very high and so they came back to On. This is true?