Evolution

[AngusThermopyle]

Have you taken up trolling as a past-time or are you going to contribute to the discussion?

If it were a discussion I would. However given the nature of the crap you've been spouting, such as, reality being whatever you imagine it to be, simultaneous evolution, etc, etc, I really don't care to waste my time.

I've seen pumpkins that would provide a better discussion than the stuff you post.

[WIP]

You've missed the points I made. Completely!

The floods mentioned in the stories were not regional floods with little creeks and rivers overflowing their banks. These were no land in sight floods with turtles swimming in the water being the only refuge kind of stories.

I wasn't referring only to local floods. Many geologists believe that the retreating glaciers from the last ice age caused a number of major floods. One theory is that a collapsing glacier flooded the Black Sea and may have been the source of the flood myths in the Middle East. I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make, unless you believe that there was a worldwide flood that covered the entire earth! If so, you won't find a legitimate geologist to support that view.

The point about the Bering Strait and the Beringer land Bridges has nothing to do with the bridges themselves. It is that the archeology suggests that human occupation of the Americas preceded the possible migrations by 40,000 years! They aren't plausible "theories" because the archeology - especially in South and Central America suggests that migration was from the south to the north.

There are many archaeologists who believe the settlement pattern of the New World was more complicated than a long march across the Bering land bridge. New archeological and genetic information indicates that the confusion over contradictory evidence may have been the result of three distinctive migrations:

The first stage of this voyage involved a gradual migration of people from Asia through Siberia starting about 40,000 years ago into Beringia, a once-habitable grassland populated with steppe bison, mammoths, horses, lions, musk oxen, sheep, wooly rhinoceros and caribou that nowadays lies submerged under the icy waters of the Bering Strait.

The second phase of the journey was basically a layover in Beringia.

"Two major glaciers blocked their progress into the New World. So they basically stayed put for about 20,000 years," said researcher Connie Mulligan, a molecular anthropologist at the University of Florida in Gainesville. The population there apparently did not grow or shrink much during this era, which suggests Beringia "wasn't paradise, but they survived."

In the final act, "when the North American ice sheets started to melt and a passage into the New World opened, we think they left Beringia to go to a better place," Mulligan explained, resulting in a rapid expansion into the New World about 15,000 years ago. Their research suggests the New World was settled by approximately 1,000 to 5,000 people — a substantially higher number than the 100 or fewer individuals of some prior estimates.

http://www.livescience.com/history/080212-new-world.html

The point about Peru settlement has nothing to do with dismissing "out of Africa" theories. It is a suggestion that simultaneous evolution was occurring in 2 remotely located centres and by remote inhabitants. It is significant in that it shows that there was no reliance on out of Africa "migrations" to populate the Americas and that civilizations could occur not through inheritance or contact but through independent simultaneous evolution. It also presents the evidence that migration from Asia did not provide the means to populate all of the Americas since the concept of "civilization" did not reach Asia for some 1200 years later.

There has been an assertion from historians and anthropologists that evolution was an linear event. There are too many doubtful data to support this and the idea that simultaneous evolution IS plausible.

The Peru settlement was estimated to be 5,500 years old; which would be long after the Out Of Africa migrations anyway. Are you trying to make a case that aboriginals were always here and didn't come from Asia? How would you explain the genetic evidence that shows similarities with Northeast Asian populations?

[M.Dancer]

It is that the archeology suggests that human occupation of the Americas preceded the possible migrations by 40,000 years! They aren't plausible "theories" because the archeology - especially in South and Central America suggests that migration was from the south to the north.

There is precious little evidence and very few credible professional archaeologists who support that theory.

[White Doors]

And while scientists have attempted to explain Native occupation of the Americas in many ways, the facts remain that the archeology have established that native peoples were in the Americas long before the ice bridges of the Bering Strait occurred (or for that matter the Beringer land bridge occurred), and in fact about 10-20,000 years before Europe was first populated. Theories abound about how people came to populate the Americas. The problem lies in that Europeans can't accept that fact that their admission to this land was not based on terrus nullus and that their claims were mostly fraudulent. In fact in a more recent article in the LA Times suggests that Peru's civilization sprung up at about the same time as they did in Egypt, Indus and China, which suggest that the concept of civilization was not imported by "out of Africa" migrants but that the Incan empire evolved on its own accord.

Lol, I had forgotten that you believe in 'simultaneous evolution'. hahahaha

What a crock. Man developed from apes (whoops, no apes in the America's) in SA independently of all other peoples in the world. Now, if that isn't the most disgusting form of racism since Nazi germany, then I don't know what is.

It's amazing the twisting of logic one must perform in order to believe such twisted ideology.

Edited March 25, 2008 by White Doors

[Drea]

Along with the Bering Strait theory, there is also a theory that white europeans came across the (much lower) Altlantic Ocean.

Native peoples are a blend of Oriental (flat noses, eye folds, little body hair) and Caucasians (long straight noses, high cheekbones, thin lips). Many many native people (especially the Inuit) could easily pass for oriental.

So the natives owe their existence to both the orientals from Asia and the caucasians from Europe.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Drea

[DogOnPorch]

There has been an assertion from historians and anthropologists that evolution was an linear event. There are too many doubtful data to support this and the idea that simultaneous evolution IS plausible.

South America's unique zoology doesn't support this as great apes are not present...nor are there any prehistoric hominid fossils like Australopithecus, etc. All signs point to Africa.

-----------------------------------------------

Yaba-daba-do!!

---Fred Flintstone

[M.Dancer]

South America's unique zoology doesn't support this as great apes are not present...nor are there any prehistoric hominid fossils like Australopithecus, etc. All signs point to Africa.

-----------------------------------------------

Yaba-daba-do!!

---Fred Flintstone

Simultaneous evolution is a fact.

For example, take flight. Flight evolved in dinosuars which became the modern bird and in mammals, notably bats.

The notion that humans evolved from two sources; an african and a north american variant isn't even worth discussing.

[charter.rights]

Simultaneous evolution is a fact.

For example, take flight. Flight evolved in dinosuars which became the modern bird and in mammals, notably bats.

The notion that humans evolved from two sources; an african and a north american variant isn't even worth discussing.

No one said that out of Africa migration didn't occur. I'm suggesting that the migration occurred much earlier than the Bering Strait or Beringer Land Bridge theories suggest. The silly belief that Europeans populated America is absurd given that occupation in South America is thought to have begun more than 20,000 years before the first people arrived in Europe.

I'm also suggesting that human qualities such as the invention of civilization, social constructs and democratic institutions evolved simultaneously in SA as it did in the rest of the world. The smelting of metals, tool making and agriculture also developed in various parts of the world at the same time and not as was suggest imported here from Asia or (LOL) Europe.

Of course the usual shit disturbers show up in the middle of this discussion perhaps because their manhood is threatened, and have nothing else to offer but the usual monkey jumping shit flinging.

[M.Dancer]

The silly belief that Europeans populated America is absurd given that occupation in South America is thought to have begun more than 20,000 years before the first people arrived in Europe.

Modern humans reached Europe around 45,000 years ago. Suggesting that humans were in the Americas 65,000 is nonsense.

[Drea]

Discovery HD is right now airing a program on the evolution of agriculture.

I believe human beings have had civilization for tens of thousands of years. There is evidence of water erosion on the Sphinx... and there has been no water on the Sahara for 10,000 years.

I believe there was a world wide catastrophe about 8000 years ago... which would explain alot of `odd`extinctions. Mastadons, Sabre toothed cats, north american horses... the ancients that the Sumerians mention in their texts..

And this civilization will be wiped out too. Whether by nature or by mankind, it will perish.

And when a future civilization finds evidence of us they will think we worshipped a shiny black box as we all have one in a prominent place in our homes. They will assume we recieved `special`*instructions from this `box` and that it must have been vital to our communion with `gods`.

*and they will be correct in that assumption.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Drea

[M.Dancer]

Discovery HD is right now airing a program on the evolution of agriculture.

I believe human beings have had civilization for tens of thousands of years. There is evidence of water erosion on the Sphinx... and there has been no water on the Sahara for 10,000 years.

Given that the Sphinx is around 5,000 years old it is safe to say water is not the cause of the erosion.

[Drea]

Given that the Sphinx is around 5,000 years old it is safe to say water is not the cause of the erosion.

Some Egyptologists will argue that the Sphinx was built by them but they are wrong. They also believe that the Pharoh head was there as part of the original sculpture. They are wrong -- they wrecked a perfectly good peice of history by adding the human head (idiots!). Originally it was built during the age of `Leo`which was approx 10,000 years ago. We are now leaving the age of Pisces and into the age of Aquarius...

Age of Leo

there has been lively debate in recent years arguing that it may be anywhere from two to four times that old. John Anthony West first noticed weathering patterns on the Sphinx that were consistent with water erosion rather than erosion produced by wind and sand.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Drea

[M.Dancer]

Some Egyptologists will argue that the Sphinx was built by them but they are wrong. They also believe that the Pharoh head was there as part of the original sculpture. They are wrong -- they wrecked a perfectly good peice of history by adding the human head (idiots!). Originally it was built during the age of `Leo`which was approx 10,000 years ago. We are now leaving the age of Pisces and into the age of Aquarius...

Age of Leo

That of course is pseudo scientific nonsense.

Can we start with the fact that the pyramids predate the greco roman zodiac by a millenia? That the nomenclature of the zodiac is greek and latin?

That leo is July 23 - August 22 corresponds with the egyptian calendar as Anubis (July 25 - August 28)?

Anubis BTW, is god of mummification.....

[Drea]

Precession

The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius"

Hipparchus concluded that the intersection marking the equinox slowly crept forward along the ecliptic, and called that motion "the precession of the equinoxes. " The rate is about one full circle in 26 000 years. In ancient times the intersection marking the spring equinox was in the constellation of Aries, the ram, and for that reason the intersection (wherever it might be) is still sometimes called "the first point in Aries."

Around the year 1 it moved into the constellation of Pisces (pronounced "pie-sees" in the US) and currently it is again in transition, to the constellation of Aquarius, the water carrier. If you ever heard the song "The dawning of the age of Aquarius" from the musical "Hair," that is what it is all about. To astronomers precession is mainly another factor to be taken into account when aiming a telescope or drawing a star chart; but to believers in astrology, the "dawning of the age of Aquarius" is a great portent and may mark the beginning of a completely new and different era.

The Sphinx was built during the age of Leo... and if each age is approx 2000 years and we are entering Aquarius it would make sense then that:

2000ce to 4000ce -- Aquarius the Water Bearer

1ce to 2000ce -- Pisces the fish

2000bce to 4000bce -- Aries the Ram

4000bce to 6000bce -- Taurus the Bull

6000bce to 8000bce -- Gemini the Twins

8000bce to 10000bce -- Leo the Lion

During these ages the constellation would rise before the sun on the winter solstice ushering in a new age.

The age of Aquarius begins on December 21, 2012.

Royal Arch

[Drea]

Precession

The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius"

Hipparchus concluded that the intersection marking the equinox slowly crept forward along the ecliptic, and called that motion "the precession of the equinoxes. " The rate is about one full circle in 26 000 years. In ancient times the intersection marking the spring equinox was in the constellation of Aries, the ram, and for that reason the intersection (wherever it might be) is still sometimes called "the first point in Aries."

Around the year 1 it moved into the constellation of Pisces (pronounced "pie-sees" in the US) and currently it is again in transition, to the constellation of Aquarius, the water carrier. If you ever heard the song "The dawning of the age of Aquarius" from the musical "Hair," that is what it is all about. To astronomers precession is mainly another factor to be taken into account when aiming a telescope or drawing a star chart; but to believers in astrology, the "dawning of the age of Aquarius" is a great portent and may mark the beginning of a completely new and different era.

The Sphinx was built during the age of Leo... and if each age is approx 2000 years and we are entering Aquarius it would make sense then that:

2000ce to 4000ce -- Aquarius the Water Bearer

1ce to 2000ce -- Pisces the fish

2000bce to 4000bce -- Aries the Ram

4000bce to 6000bce -- Taurus the Bull

6000bce to 8000bce -- Gemini the Twins

8000bce to 10000bce -- Leo the Lion

During these ages the constellation would rise before the sun on the winter solstice ushering in a new age.

The age of Aquarius begins on December 21, 2012.

Royal Arch

[Drea]

Precession

The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius"

Hipparchus concluded that the intersection marking the equinox slowly crept forward along the ecliptic, and called that motion "the precession of the equinoxes. " The rate is about one full circle in 26 000 years. In ancient times the intersection marking the spring equinox was in the constellation of Aries, the ram, and for that reason the intersection (wherever it might be) is still sometimes called "the first point in Aries."

Around the year 1 it moved into the constellation of Pisces (pronounced "pie-sees" in the US) and currently it is again in transition, to the constellation of Aquarius, the water carrier. If you ever heard the song "The dawning of the age of Aquarius" from the musical "Hair," that is what it is all about. To astronomers precession is mainly another factor to be taken into account when aiming a telescope or drawing a star chart; but to believers in astrology, the "dawning of the age of Aquarius" is a great portent and may mark the beginning of a completely new and different era.

The Sphinx was built during the age of Leo... and if each age is approx 2000 years and we are entering Aquarius it would make sense then that:

2000ce to 4000ce -- Aquarius the Water Bearer

1ce to 2000ce -- Pisces the fish

2000bce to 4000bce -- Aries the Ram

4000bce to 6000bce -- Taurus the Bull

6000bce to 8000bce -- Gemini the Twins

8000bce to 10000bce -- Leo the Lion

During these ages the constellation would rise before the sun on the winter solstice ushering in a new age.

The age of Aquarius begins on December 21, 2012.

Royal Arch

[M.Dancer]

Precession

The Sphinx was built during the age of Leo...

Forgetting that no one called that constellation leo 8,000 years ago....

pseudo scientific garbage...

Edited March 25, 2008 by M.Dancer

[Drea]

The constellation was still there if by another name or in another language...

If I call you *Jake* does your appearance change? Do you disappear as MDancer? Of course not. And dogs were around millenia ago, but probably not called the word "dog" but alas they still existed.

Are you denying the fact that the earth has a 25,920 year precessional wobble?

Here I can't get the link to work, nor will it allow me to copy and paste:

http://ancientegypt.hypermart.net/royalarch/

The earth travels through space around the sun. It travels through spaces that are labelled by human beings accoding to which astrological constellation rose during that era.

Astrological signs are/were used by human beings for the telling of time.

It's not about "personality traits" or predicting the future. It is a tool for mankind to tell where it is in the largess of the earth's time span.

By the way, the earth travels backwards throught the constellations (lets call them constellations that way you won't be confused and think I'm talking about some evil astrological/witchcrafty type of thing okay.)

[M.Dancer]

The constellation was still there if by another name or in another language...

If I call you *Jake* does your appearance change? Do you disappear as MDancer? Of course not. And dogs were around millenia ago, but probably not called the word "dog" but alas they still existed.

If the constellation was called the hyena....then the fact that the body of the sphinx resembling a lion would be something else all together. But since the horoscope didn't even reach Egypt till the Hellenization era, it is anachronistic to think that Leo the Lion (who didn't exist 5000 BC as a concept) would have a monument built for it.

As I pointed out earlier, the corresponding time for Leo in the Egyptian cosmology was anubis..there is no reason to think that the Sphinx is Leo and any attemp is post hoc reasoning.

And as your NASA link pointed out, Hipparchus was the first to identify the procession...and he lived 5000 years after the Sphinx was built.

[Drea]

If the constellation was called the hyena....then the fact that the body of the sphinx resembling a lion would be something else all together. But since the horoscope didn't even reach Egypt till the Hellenization era, it is anachronistic to think that Leo the Lion (who didn't exist 5000 BC as a concept) would have a monument built for it.

As I pointed out earlier, the corresponding time for Leo in the Egyptian cosmology was anubis..there is no reason to think that the Sphinx is Leo and any attemp is post hoc reasoning.

And as your NASA link pointed out, Hipparchus was the first to identify the procession...and he lived 5000 years after the Sphinx was built.

As I pointed out the age of "Leo" would have been from 10000bce to 8000bce... so why would the Egyptians build a monument of a Lion if they lived during the age of Taurus? Should they have not built a bull instead?

Also there is absolutely no documentation regarding the building of either the Sphinx nor the Great Pyramids. And the Egyptians recorded every single thing -- every trade agreement, every death... even when and how much the Pharoh crapped on a daily basis; but nothing on the building of the most impressive monuments on earth. Why? Because they did not build them. A much more ancient civilization did (or maybe you believe aliens did it?)

Also, why do you think that Christians call Jesus the "Fisher of Men"? Why is the symbol for Jesus a fish? Because we are in the age of Pisces -- the end of it thankfully.

I wonder what the "water bearerer" will be? LOL Maybe we will start worshipping whales and dolphins or icecream buckets.

[M.Dancer]

As I pointed out the age of "Leo" would have been from 10000bce to 8000bce... so why would the Egyptians build a monument of a Lion if they lived during the age of Taurus? Should they have not built a bull instead?

You seem to be missing a saliant point

How would the egyptians known they were living in the age of leo?

The procession wouldn't have been discovered for another 5 thousand years...and, no one back then called it leo so buiding a lion is illogical.

I hope this doesn't confuse you, but the etmological reasons for the sign of fish have nothing to do with Christ nor were the in currency in his lifetime.

1) Pices is latin

The first letters of Jesus Christ God's son Savior in greek, spells fish. Iesous Christos Theou Huios Soter ICTHS

As well he worked in Galilee which was a fishing area and many of his followeres were fishers by trade.

Like Leo for the sphinx and Pices for Christ, these are post hoc explanations that have no bearing on reality.

[M.Dancer]

Why? Because they did not build them. A much more ancient civilization did (or maybe you believe aliens did it?)

I leave that speculation to those who think there were civilzations where there weren't any...

Lets leave aside the tinfoil and moonbat speculation and look at real science....

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pyramids/pyramids.html

Who Built the Pyramids?

Contrary to some popular depictions, the pyramid builders were not slaves or foreigners. Excavated skeletons show that they were Egyptians who lived in villages developed and overseen by the pharaoh's supervisors.

The builders' villages boasted bakers, butchers, brewers, granaries, houses, cemeteries, and probably even some sorts of health-care facilities—there is evidence of laborers surviving crushed or amputated limbs. Bakeries excavated near the Great Pyramids could have produced thousands of loaves of bread every week.

Some of the builders were permanent employees of the pharaoh. Others were conscripted for a limited time from local villages. Some may have been women: Although no depictions of women builders have been found, some female skeletons show wear that suggests they labored with heavy stone for long periods of time.

Graffiti indicates that at least some of these workers took pride in their work, calling their teams "Friends of Khufu," "Drunkards of Menkaure," and so on—names indicating allegiances to pharaohs.

[AngusThermopyle]

they will think we worshipped a shiny black box as we all have one in a prominent place in our homes.

Then they'll think we put our god on a diet since many of us now have thin boxes on our walls.

The whole Sphinx debate is quite interesting, I must admit though that most of the material I've seen places the age at around 5,000 years old. I've also heard theories stating that the Pyramids are older than we believe and all we know about Egyptian burial practices is wrong. Of course non of these opposing views are from any sort of credible source. Its the source of course, the more credible, the more likely to be correct.

[charter.rights]

Modern humans reached Europe around 45,000 years ago. Suggesting that humans were in the Americas 65,000 is nonsense.

Modern humans reach Europe about 30,000 years ago. There is a footprint in South America that dates to 50,000 years ago.

[AngusThermopyle]

There is a footprint in South America that dates to 50,000 years ago.

Could you show something to back that statement? Nothing I've ever seen confirms what you're saying so I'd like some confirmation. Strange as it may seem, if you show me something solid, not just opinion, then I do adjust my views on the subject.