Your Grocery Bill is about to hurt

[White Doors]

Do you know what geothermal is?

What you are stating is an outright lie without proof how you achieve this.

What she describes is a heat pump, not geo-thermal.

[Leafless]

My cousin has a geothermal system installed in his house in Winnipeg. I'm quite envious. Not only does it keep the house toasty in the winter, it cools it nicely in the summer. And all he has to pay for is the electricity for his pumps.

It cost him about 20K to set up. You need a decent-size yard, but that can be overcome in new developments if it's set up for all the houses before they're built.

So, how much do you assume you would save annually taking into account your super low initial 20k investment and hydro cost?

State your two cost gas vs. geothermal.

[Leafless]

What she describes is a heat pump, not geo-thermal.

How do you know, were you speaking to her?

[White Doors]

How do you know, were you speaking to her?

I know because I know what a heat pump is and what she described is a heat pump, not geo-thermal power.

Leafless, do you have any friends in real life?

[jdobbin]

Have fun.

Upfront cost can run as high as $90,000.

Thousands of home owners have already done it in Manitoba and the up front costs have averaged $20,000. However, then those homes are disconnected from the gas. If your home comes with it already installed, you start saving the moment you move in. You would pay the same up front costs to be connected to the gas grid.

Gas will continue to go up in price. For many people, they can pay off the investment in 10 years if they put it in themselves.

You disagree?

The one technical glitch is salt. If the ground water is salty it cannot be put into retention ponds and has to be put back in the ground. It can be more expensive. Still, it can be paid off in 15 to 20 years if you install the system yourself.

The big difference between gas and geo-thermal is that geo-thermal is eventually is paid off and only needs electricity to keep running. In other words, after 20 years, the home owner with gas will continue to be paying a lot whereas the geo-thermal house will have dramatically lower costs to heat and cool their home.

[Leafless]

I built a 1100 sqft home in Atikoken Ontario 15 years ago that could be heated comfortable with a domestic hot water heater all winter.

How can for instance a 3,000 watt upper tank element and a lower 3,000 watt tank element heat your house?

Water tanks incorporate a flip-flop thermostat that allows only a single element to be energized at any single time.

This single 3,000 watt element produces a measly 18,000 BTU's.

So unless you are sitting on top of a volcano in that small northern Ontario town, what you are saying is impossible.

[guyser]

What she describes is a heat pump, not geo-thermal.

Pretty sure what she is describing is a geo thermal heat pump.

There are many different types. Pure geo thermal is like in Iceland and Idaho where the hot source is close to the surface and the heat is taken there.

Ground source heating is running pipes into the ground, horizontal (warmer climes) , vertical , pond , or water loops are others.

The cost from what I understand is nowhere near $90,000 , although it could be if you build a castle, or a hotel. But on an avg home , well it makes for a laugh, it isnt even close.

[guyser]

How can for instance a 3,000 watt upper tank element and a lower 3,000 watt tank element heat your house?

Water tanks incorporate a flip-flop thermostat that allows only a single element to be energized at any single time.

This single 3,000 watt element produces a measly 18,000 BTU's.

So unless you are sitting on top of a volcano in that small northern Ontario town, what you are saying is impossible.

Why not...radiant infloor heating. He may be supplemented by a woodstove but I can believe it.

[M.Dancer]

Pretty sure what she is describing is a geo thermal heat pump.

There are many different types. Pure geo thermal is like in Iceland and Idaho where the hot source is close to the surface and the heat is taken there.

Ground source heating is running pipes into the ground, horizontal (warmer climes) , vertical , pond , or water loops are others.

The cost from what I understand is nowhere near $90,000 , although it could be if you build a castle, or a hotel. But on an avg home , well it makes for a laugh, it isnt even close.

We used to call them swedish heat pumps. They are passive and use the stable temperature that is found a few hundred feet below ground. They are not practical for most place because once you drilled a few hndred feet, instead of making a passive heatpump, you made a well....

...mind you, your water bills will be lower....

[eyeball]

It looks like the biggest elephant in the thread, population growth, is getting a free pass as usual. Don't get me wrong, I've probably contributed more to that than was probably necessary - perhaps I would have acted differently if I'd been encouraged to.

Getting governments to promote birth control has proven to be even harder to do than getting them to promote any of the other things I've seen proposed in this thread.

I guess we'll just have to rely on nature to do what needs to be done.

[Leafless]

The big difference between gas and geo-thermal is that geo-thermal is eventually is paid off and only needs electricity to keep running. In other words, after 20 years, the home owner with gas will continue to be paying a lot whereas the geo-thermal house will have dramatically lower costs to heat and cool their home.

The $20k you quoted is super low and does not reflect the true cost of someone living within the city on a small lot, where installation cost of a complete system could be as high as $90,000, depending on the drilling cost.

How long do you suppose your geo system is going to last...forever?

The type of geo system you are describing requires a trench, minimum five feet deep, (the less depth the less heat to extract) 145 ft. long by 45 ft. wide, running about 3,500 ft. of pvc piping.

That would require a large lot.

Compressors only last 5-10 years and cost $3,500 for a small compressor equivalent to three horsepower, plus hydro. Larger compressors run a lot higher.

What size compressor would you be using in cold Winnipeg?

The trouble with what you are describing is that you are married to you house for a minimum in your case, 20-yrs. until it pays for itself. Or if you sell you would have to had the cost of your installation to the price of the house.

So, how much do you figure you would save yearly compared to gas? Of course you would have to factor in your hydro cost and the income you would earn if you had invested your equipment and installation cost initially and maintenance.

Another thing you are not describing is the cost to upgrade insulating your house as with a geo system the recovery rate to bring up the temperature of your house when outdoor temperatures drops rapidly is very slow.

The cost to upgrade your homes insulation, windows etc. must also be added to the initial cost or you will be living in a cold house.

[margrace]

In the areas where my sons in law live the temperature regularly goes below -20 to -30 degrees. One with the inground one was put in at least 8 years ago and is still running, it goes out into the farm field and Cost around $16,000 to install. The other as I said runs throught the well system and cost about $14,000 and was put in last fall.

[margrace]

In the areas where my sons in law live the temperature regularly goes below -20 to -30 degrees. One with the inground one was put in at least 8 years ago and is still running, it goes out into the farm field and Cost around $16,000 to install. The other as I said runs throught the well system and cost about $14,000 and was put in last fall.

[jdobbin]

The $20k you quoted is super low and does not reflect the true cost of someone living within the city on a small lot, where installation cost of a complete system could be as high as $90,000, depending on the drilling cost.

A neighbor recently put one in. They did have a yard but not a huge one. Cost: $20,000. They are no longer connected to gas and expect to cover the cost in 15 years.

How long do you suppose your geo system is going to last...forever?

How long do you think they will last? I think they last longer than a furnace.

The type of geo system you are describing requires a trench, minimum five feet deep, (the less depth the less heat to extract) 145 ft. long by 45 ft. wide, running about 3,500 ft. of pvc piping.

That would require a large lot.

Compressors only last 5-10 years and cost $3,500 for a small compressor equivalent to three horsepower, plus hydro. Larger compressors run a lot higher.

What size compressor would you be using in cold Winnipeg?

The trouble with what you are describing is that you are married to you house for a minimum in your case, 20-yrs. until it pays for itself. Or if you sell you would have to had the cost of your installation to the price of the house.

This is what is already happening in the market. A lot of people have no problem moving into a home that has geo-thermal.

So, how much do you figure you would save yearly compared to gas? Of course you would have to factor in your hydro cost and the income you would earn if you had invested your equipment and installation cost initially and maintenance.

Another thing you are not describing is the cost to upgrade insulating your house as with a geo system the recovery rate to bring up the temperature of your house when outdoor temperatures drops rapidly is very slow.

The cost to upgrade your homes insulation, windows etc. must also be added to the initial cost or you will be living in a cold house.

A home built to R2000 would have a air conditioning bill of $50 and a heating bill of $300. I've seen those bills. Do you still think gas is going to be cheaper than that 10 or 20 years from now.

How long do you think gas will last or be affordable?

[Wild Bill]

This is fascinating and useful info on geo-thermal and heat pumps!

Still, I live on a typical 50x100 ft lot in the city, with my house plunked in the middle. I haven't seen any schemes useful to get someone like me off grid, in a cost-effective manner. I can't lay pipe in my back yard. I don't think my neighbours would appreciate a big wind turbine in the backyard.

The house is old and you can only do so much with retro-fit insulation. As has been pointed out, you would like to stay out of the poor house after ponying up for the initial installation costs and also live long enough to get some payback.

One ray of hope, however. Perhaps someone better informed like jdobbin might care to comment. When my home was built in 1949 its water came from a buried well. A decade or so later the city expanded outward and the home was hooked to city water and sewers. I know from the patched holes in my basement walls that the well is just out front of my house, buried a few feet down.

Is it possible and practical to use well water to drive a heat pump? After all, it should also be warmer than winter air and cooler than that of summer. Are there manufacturers catering to this application? Would it be practical for DIY?

If this was a practical thing to do I'm sure there are countless homeowners in the same situation.

[guyser]

This is fascinating and useful info on geo-thermal and heat pumps!

Still, I live on a typical 50x100 ft lot in the city, with my house plunked in the middle. I haven't seen any schemes useful to get someone like me off grid, in a cost-effective manner. I can't lay pipe in my back yard. I don't think my neighbours would appreciate a big wind turbine in the backyard.

Why not ? You might be able to dig straight down. But I have a hunch it might not work due to underground cabling pipes etc.

One ray of hope, however. Perhaps someone better informed like jdobbin might care to comment. When my home was built in 1949 its water came from a buried well. A decade or so later the city expanded outward and the home was hooked to city water and sewers. I know from the patched holes in my basement walls that the well is just out front of my house, buried a few feet down.

Is it possible and practical to use well water to drive a heat pump? After all, it should also be warmer than winter air and cooler than that of summer. Are there manufacturers catering to this application? Would it be practical for DIY?

If this was a practical thing to do I'm sure there are countless homeowners in the same situation.

You could always try. I too had a well in my backyard and when I investigated I was told to forget it. Who knew how good the water was, the prevalance of it remaining viable, dry up etc.

The well water would have to be relatively free of impurities. I know that lake water ponds etc are not good fits due to mineral content and other flotsom and jetsom.

You could look into using the well for fitting pipes down the well hole, and using the heat recovery that way. All worth looking into.

[jdobbin]

This is fascinating and useful info on geo-thermal and heat pumps!

Still, I live on a typical 50x100 ft lot in the city, with my house plunked in the middle. I haven't seen any schemes useful to get someone like me off grid, in a cost-effective manner. I can't lay pipe in my back yard. I don't think my neighbours would appreciate a big wind turbine in the backyard.

The house is old and you can only do so much with retro-fit insulation. As has been pointed out, you would like to stay out of the poor house after ponying up for the initial installation costs and also live long enough to get some payback.

One ray of hope, however. Perhaps someone better informed like jdobbin might care to comment. When my home was built in 1949 its water came from a buried well. A decade or so later the city expanded outward and the home was hooked to city water and sewers. I know from the patched holes in my basement walls that the well is just out front of my house, buried a few feet down.

Is it possible and practical to use well water to drive a heat pump? After all, it should also be warmer than winter air and cooler than that of summer. Are there manufacturers catering to this application? Would it be practical for DIY?

If this was a practical thing to do I'm sure there are countless homeowners in the same situation.

My neighbor didn't have a large yard. They dug down vertically in a space in their front yard. There are horizontal and vertical closed loop systems that take advantage of the land you do have.

The fact that you have an old well is probably good.

This FAQ will probably help.

http://www.smart-nrg.com/geofaq.php

Only an expert will be able to tell you how you might be able to do it on the land you and give you a cost.

The big problem for you is the up front costs. They are formidable to be sure but the savings pile up.

When you think about it, who wouldn't want to have a $300 bill for the entire winter to heat their homes? Thousands of homes are going this route. It is just a matter of time before people will be able to buy into an entire sub-division where it is installed instead of gas.

However, what about the rest of us? I honestly think that if the various levels of government help us with conversion, we save ourselves money, save energy, reduce emissions and generally become more self-sufficient.

Edited March 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[Leafless]

A neighbor recently put one in. They did have a yard but not a huge one. Cost: $20,000. They are no longer connected to gas and expect to cover the cost in 15 years.

How long do you think they will last? I think they last longer than a furnace.

This is what is already happening in the market. A lot of people have no problem moving into a home that has geo-thermal.

A home built to R2000 would have a air conditioning bill of $50 and a heating bill of $300. I've seen those bills. Do you still think gas is going to be cheaper than that 10 or 20 years from now.

How long do you think gas will last or be affordable?

There is a difference between a conventional house and a R2000 house which of course cost you lots of money.

Now, what you didn't mention is the size of the house where as you seen a heating bill of $300. This must be an R2000 house or must be very very well insulated and I will tell you why.

A 3-h.p. compressor is equivalent to approx. 2,235 watts and you did not inform us of the compressor size he uses.

That is 735 watts more than a 1500 watt baseboard heater.

So if his hydro bill is $300, this means the compressor is working no where near full time and means the glycol that is thermally heated must be quiet warm or do you know what temperature the glycol is by the time it hits the heat exchanger?

What temperature does he keep the interior of the house at, another important factor?

[AngusThermopyle]

Geothermal is good in some aplications but not all. For instance someone said it would be a little harder to drill in the mountainous areas. This is wrong. Its one hell of a lot harder to drill in these areas. Cost would go through the roof. We have a pilling division to our company, one important factor we consider when giving an estimate is the soil composition analysis. If we find rocks, not solid rock, just rocks, the cost goes up in a hurry.

For rock drilling you need specialized rock augers fitted with dragons teeth bits. You'll go through these teeth in a big hurry in rock and considering they cost three to four times what conventional teeth cost it becomes significant. Next is time. We charge $330.00 an hour for our Texoma and Hughes rigs, operators will cost you another $125.00 an hour. Factor in at least four times the duration for rock drilling and you can see where it would become impractical in a big hurry.

There is no magic bullet when it comes to energy requirements, to think otherwise is to be a dreamer. All alternatives should be utilized, not just a select one or two.

[blueblood]

I didn't pay 20K for mine, I just make the payments on the little program offered by MB hydro.

I don't agree with Dobbin on much, but he's right as far as geothermal is concerned. We get 40 below for a lot of time during the winter and the geotherm keeps up. I don't know how the soil is in Southern Ont/PQ, but if you own a home and a decent size yard in MB, it pays. I wonder if they can rig up something in WPG, with a communal sort of pipe, all under say the sidewalk or something and have it piped to individual homes/appts instead of everyone having all sorts of uneccesary pipe.

[Leafless]

I wonder if they can rig up something in WPG, with a communal sort of pipe, all under say the sidewalk or something and have it piped to individual homes/appts instead of everyone having all sorts of uneccesary pipe.

Sounds like you are going to have miles of pipe.

BTW, what is Winnipeg sitting on anyways, a volcano?

[guyser]

Sounds like you are going to have miles of pipe.

200 feet per ton of furnace.

BTW, what is Winnipeg sitting on anyways, a volcano?

Volcano??? The earth is as warm beneath your house as it is in Winnipeg, winter summer spring fall.

Shadow Ridge (subdivision) in Greeley On has ground source heat pumps. AC costs on a 2000sf house is $50, heating the same, $300 annually.

Pretty impressive.

Blueblood

I don't know how the soil is in Southern Ont/PQ, but if you own a home and a decent size yard in MB, it pays

That realy depends. So varied. North of TO, probably too rocky, and it does get worse as you move north. West has the escarpment so no go there. Probably works in Holland Marsh, but that is prime farm land.

[jdobbin]

There is a difference between a conventional house and a R2000 house which of course cost you lots of money.

Now, what you didn't mention is the size of the house where as you seen a heating bill of $300. This must be an R2000 house or must be very very well insulated and I will tell you why.

The house that I know was done was not R2000. They did have newer windows and foam insulation though which Manitoba Hydro helped to pay for.

The house was 1200 square feet above grade with a finished basement.

A 3-h.p. compressor is equivalent to approx. 2,235 watts and you did not inform us of the compressor size he uses.

That is 735 watts more than a 1500 watt baseboard heater.

So if his hydro bill is $300, this means the compressor is working no where near full time and means the glycol that is thermally heated must be quiet warm or do you know what temperature the glycol is by the time it hits the heat exchanger?

What temperature does he keep the interior of the house at, another important factor?

Temp in the house was set for 21 C. I don't know what the compressor size was or the other details.

There are one or two members of this forum who have thermal who could give you more details on how their system works and the costs.

[blueblood]

Sounds like you are going to have miles of pipe.

BTW, what is Winnipeg sitting on anyways, a volcano?

Well considering there is a good size pipe underneath the field supplying one house, I'm wondering if the pipe could run some more, but compressors are obviously still needed.

-20 today and It's a balmy 25 inside, and it's not that garbage oil/natural gas type heat which I can't get any sleep off of. Sure beats going out to the bush to get wood, although I do miss the exercise, but gas is too expensive to go get it. No expensive baseboards either.

[jdobbin]

I didn't pay 20K for mine, I just make the payments on the little program offered by MB hydro.

I don't agree with Dobbin on much, but he's right as far as geothermal is concerned. We get 40 below for a lot of time during the winter and the geotherm keeps up. I don't know how the soil is in Southern Ont/PQ, but if you own a home and a decent size yard in MB, it pays. I wonder if they can rig up something in WPG, with a communal sort of pipe, all under say the sidewalk or something and have it piped to individual homes/appts instead of everyone having all sorts of uneccesary pipe.

I agree that in some neighborhoods where houses are cheek by jowl, you need to have some cooperation between the city and each neighbor. If the vertical pipes can be set beneath city property, it would be possible. Considering that pipes now go to retention ponds and lakes owned by the city or Crown, I think it possible cities will be open to it.

As far as disagreements go, I think you know I don't want farmers living in poverty and for them to get a good price for their products. What I am concerned with is the drive for food for fuel and the whether it actually reduces energy use or emissions.

I'd also hate for farmers to become dependent on ethanol when hydrogen fuel cells could be commercially viable in ten years.