Religion is Child Abuse

[BubberMiley]

Jews definitely have a moral standard. I know you are a friend of the Jews but I can't let that slide.

No religion can take credit for establishing "the moral standard" and most religions are rather piss-poor at offering an adequate code of ethics. For the most part, they get caught up in asserting the authority of their power structure over any other (no other gods before me) and often conveniently forgetting basic moral principles. There's nothing about slavery or torture or war or rape in the 10 commandments---likely because the human beings that wrote them still wanted to be able to do those things.

[betsy]

And I've been talking about RELIGION (Check thread title).

I read the title. But it is you who brought your own topic to Christianity....as early as post#6. And on....and on...and on...it went. Hey, you were on a roll!

You should've titled it appropriately: Christianity is Child Abuse.

Post#6

I wouldn't say Hitchens has a simplistic concept of religion at all; he just recognizes the simplicity of its motivation: that is, to use fear to gain power over other individuals. The bible spends most of its time boasting about its authority in an extremely self-defensive manner. No one seems to recognize how ridiculous it would be for an omnipotent, all-powerful god to spend so much time worrying that the people it has created might worship some other non-existent all-powerful god. It makes a lot more sense that mere mortals instead were the ones with such worries, and therefore obvious that religion and the bible are just human creations that have been used for centuries to maintain a power structure.

I'm talking about what the bible says. You may say only the fundies believe what the bible says, but I think most christian religions declare it is the truth.

One might say the most explicit and repeated aspect of the bible is the 10 commandments. I don't think belief in those principles is limited to just fundies. But rather than dealing with pertinent moral issues like, say, slavery or torture or war, half the commandments are used up making sure nobody dares question the authority of this omnipotent creator:

I am the Lord your God

You shall have no other gods before me

You shall not make for yourself an idol

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy

I simply have a hard time believing that a force that could create the universe would be so insecure. But a mortal person who is devising a religious system to exert control over others and who is wanting to ensure its potential subects are intimidated enough to not follow some other mortal's similar plan? He might be so insecure.

Perhaps it's just as futile to discuss religion in an objective manner with believers, as they've already willingly let go of objective reasoning in favour of what they call "faith." In that context, any amount of emperical evidence is irrelevant.

But it's easy for a non-believer to determine what believers believe. One just has to go the source of their belief system--the bible.

Your title is one false advertisement!

And when you can't come up with a rebuttal to my statement, you say your topic is about religion. Yeah religion: Christianity!

I mean, how can we take your arguments seriously???

So.... Whatever.

Edited April 2, 2009 by betsy

[betsy]

Jews definitely have a moral standard. I know you are a friend of the Jews but I can't let that slide.

You believe in the Old Testament. True Christians should believe in the Old Testament....Christ made that clear in the New Testament.

So Jews and Christians have the same foundation. Our moral standard is the same.

For Christ's teachings was to stress the absolute importance of following the Commandments of God.

And as I said: If they understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, they understand by way of a moral code that is similar to Christianity.

You don't have to be a Christian...or a Jew.... to be good.

Edited April 2, 2009 by betsy

[betsy]

Well, I think I you've given me enough information to answer it for you now. Your acceptance of people with different religions or religious beliefs is going to be much more limited than mine, since you are describing these people in a hostile frame of reference, as "distorting and manipulating" your faith. If you really believe that, and somebody moves in next door who belongs to that apostate church (whatever it is), you do not have the luxury of becoming friends with them because of this, as someone who either doesn't believe or doesn't believe that there has to be uniformity of doctrine, would not really care that much what church they belong to or what they believe as long as they conduct themselves as good neighbours.

On the contrary. Adhering to the teachings of Christ, I will be more accepting and welcoming of people. For is it not my duty as a Christian to spread the word of God?

Spreading the word of God does not always mean standing in the pulpit and preaching.

And because Jesus said that he reaches out and search for the sheep that's lost....it only follows that someone who's trying to follow his teaching would do the same. Can a true Christian spread the word of Christ if he does not go out there and be with people....most especially the non-believers?

Of course I am angry for I feel that people who seeks the Lord are being decieved. Whether you agree with me or not that a deception had been made, and still being made (whether unconsciously or wilfully by some of those that preach in the name of God) , it still does not change how I personally perceive it. And being Christian does not mean I can not feel anger.

On the other hand, it is you who's more limited in your acceptance....for I sense in your various posts that you still harbor some grudge...or pain....I don't know what truly causes that... but it manifest into some form of hostility towards anyone who represents or follows religion.

The world is peopled with billions of people who follow religion.

Edited April 2, 2009 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

I read the title. But it is you who brought your own topic to Christianity....as early as post#6. And on....and on...and on...it went. Hey, you were on a roll!

You should've titled it appropriately: Christianity is Child Abuse.

The bible is a product of religion. The true teachings of Christ are diluted and corrupted and reinterpreted in the bible by religious leaders, centuries after the fact. You will find some truth in the bible, but you have to weed through a lot of vulgar, corrupt tripe that has been put there by individuals trying to secure power and authority.

Christian religions are child abuse just as any other sky-god religions are child abuse. I know you feel you must make it all about christians so you can feel they are being exclusively victimized, but really they are all the same.

[BubberMiley]

And when you can't come up with a rebuttal to my statement, you say your topic is about religion.

A rebuttal to what statement?

[WIP]

On the contrary. Adhering to the teachings of Christ, I will be more accepting and welcoming of people. For is it not my duty as a Christian to spread the word of God?

How does that equal being more accepting and welcoming? If they accept your sermon, of course you're going to accept them, but what if they don't, then what?

Spreading the word of God does not always mean standing in the pulpit and preaching.

And because Jesus said that he reaches out and search for the sheep that's lost....it only follows that someone who's trying to follow his teaching would do the same. Can a true Christian spread the word of Christ if he does not go out there and be with people....most especially the non-believers?

I remember those days with the J.W.'s, going door to door, spreading the good news; and as I recall, I didn't meet a whole lot of unbelievers, just believers in different religions. The ones you had to worry most about getting a garden hose turned on you, or being threatened were the Catholics with all of the statues of the virgin mary in the front yard.

BTW despite the fact that Evangelicals claim that evangelism is obligatory for all Christians, I have only once had someone who wasn't a Mormon or a J.W. knock on my door; and that was more than ten years ago when a new independent Baptist church had started and was trying to grow their membership....what about all of the other Evangelicals! All I ever see them do is leave those annoying little tracts threatening hellfire, in hospital waiting rooms, buses, lunch-counters etc.. It's pretty weak to call it evangelism, and amounts to little more than littering!

Of course I am angry for I feel that people who seeks the Lord are being decieved. Whether you agree with me or not that a deception had been made, and still being made (whether unconsciously or wilfully by some of those that preach in the name of God) , it still does not change how I personally perceive it. And being Christian does not mean I can not feel anger.

I guess most fundamentalist Christians express their anger quietly as opposed to some Muslim-majority countries where they periodically go on the rampage to kill infidels and apostates! But I worry a little about some who express their anger quietly, because it feeds a persecution complex, the one Glenn Beck is trying to channel over at Foxnews. Just because people hold to the teachings they grew up with and don't want to change, does not mean that they trying to deceive others -- they just have their own ideas about spiritual or metaphysical truth.

On the other hand, it is you who's more limited in your acceptance....for I sense in your various posts that you still harbor some grudge...or pain....I don't know what truly causes that... but it manifest into some form of hostility towards anyone who represents or follows religion.

No! Just religion that goes beyond the personal, and has the arrogance to assume everyone must change whatever they believe in, and fall in line. Because of the bluster and belligerence of Islam and Christianity, there is a mistaken assumption that every religion claims to have the exclusive revealed truth about the Divine....but they don't! In fact, they are unique in insisting that the locals have to drop their own animist religions that were part of their customs and tradition, and replace them lock, stock and barrel with the foreign God of the colonists or missionaries etc. I'm surprised so many Christians can't grasp the arrogance of cultural superiority that was part of the package of wiping out indigenous cultures around the World, and replacing them with Western European culture.

The world is peopled with billions of people who follow religion.

And I believe that the multitude of different religions and conceptions of God or Gods, adds weight to the argument that religion is a natural phenomena, not an actual revelation from above.

[BubberMiley]

Yesterday, Benjamin Netanyahu said the world does not want nuclear weapons in the hands of Islamists, as Islam is a "messianic apocalyptic cult." I don't disagree, but Ijudeo-christian religions (and others) are equally messianic and apocalyptic.

Given that human-made technology is now capable of bring about human-made religion's prophesies of armegeddon, before they become self-fulfilling prophesies it is time to stop indoctrinating young people in all these irrational, ancient texts.

And playing the persecution card, that criticism of religion is just being "anti-christian" is a painfully diversionary and pathetic attempt to draw attention away from the true dangers of disabling our central reasoning skills in favour of sky-god fantasies.

[betsy]

How does that equal being more accepting and welcoming? If they accept your sermon, of course you're going to accept them, but what if they don't, then what?

Then what? <shaking head>

You wouldn't understand unless you learn about the true teachings of Christ. That's why I've been inviting you to learn about Him.

I remember those days with the J.W.'s, going door to door, spreading the good news; and as I recall, I didn't meet a whole lot of unbelievers, just believers in different religions. The ones you had to worry most about getting a garden hose turned on you, or being threatened were the Catholics with all of the statues of the virgin mary in the front yard.

BTW despite the fact that Evangelicals claim that evangelism is obligatory for all Christians, I have only once had someone who wasn't a Mormon or a J.W. knock on my door; and that was more than ten years ago when a new independent Baptist church had started and was trying to grow their membership....what about all of the other Evangelicals! All I ever see them do is leave those annoying little tracts threatening hellfire, in hospital waiting rooms, buses, lunch-counters etc.. It's pretty weak to call it evangelism, and amounts to little more than littering!

Spreading the Word of God does not always...and doesn't have to be just limited to tele-marketing styles or knocking on doors or leaving pamphlets.

It goes well beyond that.

I guess most fundamentalist Christians express their anger quietly as opposed to some Muslim-majority countries where they periodically go on the rampage to kill infidels and apostates! But I worry a little about some who express their anger quietly, because it feeds a persecution complex,

Humans do feel anger. In everyday life! For just about any reason! That's a fact!

So you worry that some hold their anger back...<scratch head>....and I assume you wouldn't want them to express it through violence either...or to let it all out.

You are de-humanizing humans (specifically the ones who believe in a religion).

What? Only non-believers like you have the right to express your anger....like what you're doing now? Man, you seem so confused.

But I worry a little about some who express their anger quietly, because it feeds a persecution complex,

Sometimes "persecution complex" is created and nourished by a "guilt complex." One feels persecution even when none is intended.

Just because people hold to the teachings they grew up with and don't want to change, does not mean that they trying to deceive others

Deceptions are done by preachers and those with authority...those who are looked up to and trusted by the people.

I am talking about the preachers who unconsciously or wilfully deceive. Using the name of God. And some do the deception wilfully.

How do you think a priest will set about seducing a young lad into having sex with him....without assuring the lad that what he is about to do is not wrong?

No! Just religion that goes beyond the personal, and has the arrogance to assume everyone must change whatever they believe in, and fall in line.

What about the religion of Atheism? The Atheist-Preachers who exhibit the arrogance to assume everyone must change whatever they believe in, and fall in line.

By the way, that bus running that ad. You don't support that, do you?

Because of the bluster and belligerence of Islam and Christianity, there is a mistaken assumption that every religion claims to have the exclusive revealed truth about the Divine....but they don't!

Oh those blustering and belligerent fools! Don't they know who truly holds the exclusive truth about the Divine? It's the ATHEISTS, dummies! ha-ha-ha

In fact, they are unique in insisting that the locals have to drop their own animist religions that were part of their customs and tradition, and replace them lock, stock and barrel with the foreign God of the colonists or missionaries etc. I'm surprised so many Christians can't grasp the arrogance of cultural superiority that was part of the package of wiping out indigenous cultures around the World, and replacing them with Western European culture.

And I believe that the multitude of different religions and conceptions of God or Gods, adds weight to the argument that religion is a natural phenomena, not an actual revelation from above.

Behold, another one! Oh well, what can I say.... the more the merrier.

But man, I must say you're right up there in fervor and intensity!

A true fundamentalist!

ha-ha-ha

I'm done.

Edited April 6, 2009 by betsy

[Oleg Bach]

Those who hate religion and the idea of God are more abusive to children than any religious legitiate of even religious nut for that matter. Sometimes I think as I look up into the stars..how in awe I am looking up into eternity and into the face of God - It's frightening - those that are atheists are usually conditioned by being in artifical urban environments..Put the average urban God hater out in the sticks and have them peer at the stars for a minute will cure these fools - Those that beleive that religion is child abuse are the same f***ers that will drug children attempting to reconstruct them too their specifications ---- doping kids because they do not suit you because of their genetic make up - is the real abuse and mutilation of our young - not a passed down belief in a superiour eternal intelligence called GOD.

[BubberMiley]

You don't even know the difference between religion and god? Religion is a man-made construct, while god is the creator, in whatever form that is, and likely something far beyond our comprehension. To even suggest that the two are connected shows how corrupted your thought process has become by religous authority.

[Oleg Bach]

You don't even know the difference between religion and god? Religion is a man-made construct, while god is the creator, in whatever form that is, and likely something far beyond our comprehension. To even suggest that the two are connected shows how corrupted your thought process has become by religous authority.

Well said! Religion is evil - and God is wisdom, intelligence, logic and goodness plus life. Religion corrupts the mind where as God the almighty puts the chaos in good order - I had forgotten the power and awe that is the eternal universe (GOD) - Had not been in the country side for a couple of years and the other night - I viewed the heavens with no light pollution ----I have always thought of myself as a brave type - BUT as I stepped out at 4 in the morning and looked up - I was literally terrified for a moment - It was massive and eternal - It was simple - I looked up and saw the face of God - for those that believe that God does not exist - have been to long in the artifice that is city...I was stunned and afraid...It knocked my ego down a few notches...so religion maybe child abuse but the stars are not - they are eternal freedom and goodness.

[Oleg Bach]

Well said! Religion is evil - and God is wisdom, intelligence, logic and goodness plus life. Religion corrupts the mind where as God the almighty puts the chaos in good order - I had forgotten the power and awe that is the eternal universe (GOD) - Had not been in the country side for a couple of years and the other night - I viewed the heavens with no light pollution ----I have always thought of myself as a brave type - BUT as I stepped out at 4 in the morning and looked up - I was literally terrified for a moment - It was massive and eternal - It was simple - I looked up and saw the face of God - for those that believe that God does not exist - have been to long in the artifice that is city...I was stunned and afraid...It knocked my ego down a few notches...so religion maybe child abuse but the stars are not - they are eternal freedom and goodness.

Oh I forgot - It would be child abuse not to take your child to view the stars - we forget that most of our modern children have never looked up into a star filled sky - that they really do not understand eternity...Let the children view the heavens and let them make up their minds ...I feel that like ancient man - the modern child will think about how it all came about - and God may enter the equation ===all on his own.

[scorpio]

deleted

Edited April 7, 2009 by scorpio

[WIP]

Then what? <shaking head>

You wouldn't understand unless you learn about the true teachings of Christ. That's why I've been inviting you to learn about Him.

On the contrary, I could invite you learn the reasons why Christianity is so rife with doctrinal disputes, and why there are so many contradictions between the four gospels and other books of the New Testament, but I am not here to evangelize in hopes of scoring points with a higher power. But I was hoping that you would at least pause and consider that many freethinkers and unbelievers have reasons for not believing in an unseen world other than your simplistic claims that we just hate your god, or want to live in sin. But that seems to be too much to ask for!

Your invitation to "learn about Christ," indicates that you haven't noticed that I have learned a lot about Christ! The kind of learning you are referring to is brainwashing, since you expect only one result -- conversion. Well, my learning leads me to side with the many Biblical scholars and historians who have come to the conclusion that the Church of Rome created the modern synthesis of doctrines that are now called Christianity, and used their wealth, hierarchal organization and political connections to stamp out Gnostics, Marcionites and Jewish-Christian sects so their version became the standard.

What about the religion of Atheism? The Atheist-Preachers who exhibit the arrogance to assume everyone must change whatever they believe in, and fall in line.

More B.S.! Atheism represents non-belief, not a system of beliefs

By the way, that bus running that ad. You don't support that, do you?

No, I don't. It's based on an unlikely assumption that most people would be happier if their religious worldview was removed. Some people are happier without religion, and some aren't. It's depends on personality and the degree of uncertainty a person is comfortable with. So the ads are needlessly inflammatory, since most people keep belief in God as a personal matter and for the most part, consider that other people may have valid reasons for believing in something different.

[Oleg Bach]

Child abuse is bullshit. Look at the poor burned out adults that wander the streets homeless and suffering and who are marginalized and abused by the whole nation..they were children once and in a sense still are - we should get some bumper stickers that say "Adult on board" --- I don't give a damn about child abuse - I care about the general abuse of humans...they are just as valuable at any age as a child - Why do we disolve human worth once the person reaches 18 - we hate people - and love dogs..

[michele]

Christopher Hitchens has an interesting chapter in God Is Not Great about how all religion, no matter what form, is child abuse. This is not just because of the fact that, with the decline in organized religion's ability to curb all scrutiny, religious leaders' traditional practice of physically and sexually abusing children has come to light. It is also because instilling in children the belief that there will be eternal damnation for failing to meet an impossible standard (e.g.., thou shalt not covet) is equally abusive.

Do religious parents really feel good about tormenting their children with superstition?

It is also because instilling in children the belief that there will be eternal damnation for failing to meet an impossible standard

This is actually good news Bubber! This is the hope of Christ!

No one ever has been able to meet the standard..all have sinned and come short.. The law of the Old Testament was a demonstration of this. Christ is our cover charge...He paid our bail..Rejoice and be glad!

[michele]

Do people actually believe in God? I mean... seriously. I know there are a lot of people who are religious because they like the teachings, traditions and ceremonies, but I've always felt that a lot of religious people don't actually believe in a God.

Yes CC...There are people who actually believe in the God of the Bible. It's a fearsome thing to do...believe l mean. Scripture says "He's a rewarder of those who deligently seek him." How? How does he reward us?

By revealing himself. Then comes the responsibility of knowledge and we all fall short in our walk. Christ's sacrifice is for just that very thing.

When God reveals himself it throws you for a loop. You're shocked. What do you do? Do you run? Keep on going? Pray more? Read the Bible? Go to Church? What? You tell me what a person does who's encountered the one true living God? What sacrifice will you give for that knowledge and personal relationship?

Will you thumb your nose and return to your friend doubt? How utterly and completely boring that would be. Always arguing and fighting and finding excuses not to believe. Always worried about not being good enough or acceptable or doing something wrong.

This is a heart issue.

Let him help your unbelief.. He love us. He humbled himself to become a man for us..teach us and then die for us... His teachings aren't so hard. Love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and and strength and your neighbor as yourself..

He tells us "If you love me you'll do what l say"...What does he say?

Pick up your Bible and find out. When God reveals himself you become hungry for more more more..It's never enough. Then you scream STOP GOD...So he stops and you scream MORE GOD MORE.. You can't even imagine what you are missing! And the amazing thing is..He's around you all the time waiting for you to respond. He's ever drawing you..Don't miss the awesome opportunity to know God through Christ. Time is always running out.

[michele]

I haven't read all of this string but l have read many of your comments about God. How can we know for sure? This is the big question. (also..Here we are speaking of the God of the Bible. The God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. The Old Testament is the back bone of the 3 major world religions..Islam, Judaism and Christianity).

So how can we know for sure? Do we have to read our Bible first? Here's the answer!

Everyone has their own language. Each person has a thumbprint so to speak. God speaks your language. Boy that's good news! Boy that's hope! You don't have to go into his world...He comes into yours. He knows what you know, don't know and believe. Give your questions to him and wait. If your heart is truly seeking after him he will know and answer you. But mean it. Don't be flippant with the creator of the universe.. but be excited because it's the most amazing journey you will ever take and you will never be sorry. There's a cost attached to this. Will you pay it? Most won't..

Edited April 8, 2009 by michele

[M.Dancer]

I have a proplem with meglomaniacs...even if they are Gods...

[WIP]

This is actually good news Bubber! This is the hope of Christ!

No one ever has been able to meet the standard..all have sinned and come short.. The law of the Old Testament was a demonstration of this. Christ is our cover charge...He paid our bail..Rejoice and be glad!

I know the line "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God" is repeated often, but in reality, sins are categorized from common venal sins to the more serious mortal sins -- and most self-professed Christians do not acknowledge that they are guilty of the latter, so they feel free to condemn and feel contempt for people like homosexuals, that they consider to be, by their very nature, guilty of far worse sins. When I was young, there were many Southern Baptists and Mormons who considered blacks to be naturally depraved and inferior because they were the sons of Ham (Noah's cursed third son.)

So, I don't find much evidence that Christians view the doctrine of sin as leveling the playing field or creating some sense of equality. The other problem I see with the doctrine that's usually referred to as "Original Sin," is that many people with addiction problems are already of low-self esteem, and especially the Calvinist interpretation of this doctrine, that "we are worthless sinners undeserving of divine mercy" feeds their sense of futility and hopelessness, instead of improving them.

[WIP]

Give your questions to him and wait. If your heart is truly seeking after him he will know and answer you. But mean it. Don't be flippant with the creator of the universe..

Of course not! Because blaspheming the holy spirit is the only unforgiveable sin. This is essentially metaphysical blackmail because not taking some "sign" that God is talking to us, no matter how convoluted and obscure it is, means blasphemy. So someone who's afraid this story might be true, is going to do what a person is not supposed to do when evaluating evidence: disregard the its plausibility and believe it anyway. This sort of desperation to believe has to be propped up on a regular basis, and that's why so much emphasis is placed on faith-building and faith-renewal. Apologetics books are churned out constantly, not to prove Christianity to unbelievers, but instead to keep those wavering on the edge from leaving.

but be excited because it's the most amazing journey you will ever take and you will never be sorry. There's a cost attached to this. Will you pay it? Most won't..

I won't, at least I likely won't, because I've taken this journey before and found a lot of smoke and mirrors and no substance. I would be happy if the believers would consider it a personal, subjective worldview that does not necessarily apply to everyone as some sort of one size fits all solution to life's problems.

[betsy]

Pick up your Bible and find out.

Open the Bible with an open mind. Learn about Christ.

A lot of those who used to believe in Christ have turned their backs on the Lord because of the failings and deceptions by the clergy or someone they trust.

But you feel a kind of hollowness inside you...something is missing. And you know what it is that's missing.

Why would you let mere people sway you...to get between you and your Lord?

Humble yourself.

Call on the Holy Spirit to help you understand the Bible.

[Melanie_]

Well said! Religion is evil - and God is wisdom, intelligence, logic and goodness plus life. Religion corrupts the mind where as God the almighty puts the chaos in good order - I had forgotten the power and awe that is the eternal universe (GOD) - Had not been in the country side for a couple of years and the other night - I viewed the heavens with no light pollution ----I have always thought of myself as a brave type - BUT as I stepped out at 4 in the morning and looked up - I was literally terrified for a moment - It was massive and eternal - It was simple - I looked up and saw the face of God - for those that believe that God does not exist - have been to long in the artifice that is city...I was stunned and afraid...It knocked my ego down a few notches...so religion maybe child abuse but the stars are not - they are eternal freedom and goodness.

This is probably the most profound thing I've ever read from you.

[betsy]

As I said before, Charles Price have a refreshing way of explaining the passages in the Bible.

I accidentally discovered him one Sunday morning. It was a time when I long to strengthen my weakening faith....lo and behold, he was talking about "Abraham Living By Faith On A Rocky Road."

I try to tune in as often as I can...although I am not an official member of his ministry. I think he is inspired by God. I also read the Bible on my own.

For those of you who might be interested:

http://www.livingtruth.ca/default.asp