Religion is Child Abuse

[Oleg Bach]

Those that are ready to take children away from parents that are religious are the real child abusers - IT'S NO ONE'S GOD DAMNED BUISNESS WHAT NON-SENSE OR SENSE I FILL MY CHILD'S HEAD WITH - GO GET YOUR OWN KIDS!

[BubberMiley]

I sure won't be able to answer a lot of questions atheists will want to ask. I'm not trying to convert you to join in any religion. I'm inviting you to learn about Christ.

I too am inviting you to learn about Christ. But you can't do that by falling any major Christian religion. I agree that people have an inate sense of their creator. I think religion exploits that to gain money and power, and has destroyed countless lives in the process.

I'm by no means an atheist. I'm barely agnostic. I too believe in a creator that created an evolutionary world. I just don't think religion offers a better interpretation of that creator than I can get on my own.

If I wanted to know more about the creator and Christ's actual teachings, I think I would find more at urantia.org than in any bricks-and-mortar church in the world.

[sharkman]

I sure won't be able to answer a lot of questions atheists will want to ask. I'm not trying to convert you to join in any religion. I'm inviting you to learn about Christ.

Hey Betsy, hadn't seen you around in a while. I noticed you had gotten into a discussion on religion with wip. For a person who doesn't seem to like religion, he sure talks about it a lot. Be patient.

[betsy]

Hey Betsy, hadn't seen you around in a while. I noticed you had gotten into a discussion on religion with wip. For a person who doesn't seem to like religion, he sure talks about it a lot. Be patient.

Hey there, buddy....yes it's been a while. I work out of the house now so time is so limited.

Edited March 30, 2009 by betsy

[betsy]

Bubber and WIP, you might find it interesting to listen to Charles Price. I find his interpretations of the Bible so down to earth....somehow, he makes it sound so easy to understand.

I know what you mean by a lot of organized religion. I would suspect some were established just to make money. But then, Christ had said that there'll be false prophets and those who will use his name....

You'd be surprised to see not one or two, but several passages in the Bible that address the hypocrisy and corruptions of the clergy and the pharisees.

[BubberMiley]

SO let's get a grip on this and just say it plainly for what it is: you have something against Christianity.

I know you like to use this claim to victimhood in any argument possible, but I have nothing against christianity. I believe all religions are derived from a quest for power, be they buddhist, be they muslim, be they hindu.

And it's true that there are other forms of child abuse, derived from alcoholism and neglect. That's bad too. Just as it is bad to indoctrinate children to, just this once, ignore their rational mind and their own conception of their creator in favour of an ancient, contradictory, irrational interpretation of existence.

[betsy]

I know you like to use this claim to victimhood in any argument possible, but I have nothing against christianity. I believe all religions are derived from a quest for power, be they buddhist, be they muslim, be they hindu.

And it's true that there are other forms of child abuse, derived from alcoholism and neglect. That's bad too. Just as it is bad to indoctrinate children to, just this once, ignore their rational mind and their own conception of their creator in favour of an ancient, contradictory, irrational interpretation of existence.

I am not just using that claim to victimhood...I'm just stating the obvious. A lot of atheists used to be christians at one time. And they do have something against the faith (varied reasons)otherwise they wouldn't have left the fold at all. For others, the Christian Faith is too "severe"....they find it too "rigid"...too "constricting"....too "forbidding".

It wouldn't let them do whatever they wish.

Raising children to understand and follow the true teachings of Christ is not abuse in any way.

In fact, not to do so (especially in most western societies) should be termed as a form of child neglect!

A child who's raised to understand and follow the teachings of Christ is almost surely to follow the laws of society. As I said before, it comes naturally.

He'll have more resolve to resist temptations of peers that could lead him to trouble: drugs, unwanted pregnancies, gangs.

The current climate of thinking produces a lot of confusion. As an example: when it was fashionable never to use the word "no" when disciplining a child. Then when date rape became a problem, what do you think was the slogan for fighting date rape?

"No means No!"

Some parents spoil their children...indoctrinate and encourage that "keeping-up-with-the-Jones" mentality, and then later on when he gets older, he faces a harsh reality: money does not grow on trees.

No, letting a child grapple about God and values without any parental guidance is like throwing that child in a raging river and yelling: "swim!"

Besides, our waters now are too murky!

Edited March 31, 2009 by betsy

[WIP]

Jbg, you know full well that I've always ...finding the right word....have a soft spot in my heart for Israelites (Jews).

But, does that soft spot in your heart guarantee their salvation? Or do they end up in Hades like me and everyone else with different beliefs about God and how to get into the hereafter?

As a child and beyond that, my father always say how the Jews are the chosen people, and that Jesus himslef was a Jew. I have been reading the Bible (first time around, not with a Bible study group), and sure enough....it is true!

I'm still waiting for someone to explain the paradox of the "Chosen People" rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, while the religion flourished among the surrounding gentiles. Do the Jews receive salvation through Torah observance, or are they damned without converting to Christianity? If so, why do so many Christians believe that a covenant with Israel still exists today?

Boy, as Jesus had said: "You are a stiff-necked people."

So! It's their fault!

You guys have an unsettled business with God, it seems. The Old Testament had prophesied about Christ.

Not according to Jewish scholars who have written down the reasons why they don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the terms of being the Messiah, and that Christianity is not from the Jewish historical tradition, for the following reasons:

from Judaism Online

The Trinity appears late even in the early Christian community, and was a subject of dispute and contention between unitarians and trinitarians. In the Old Testament, there is no support the concept of God being three persons in one, and it was adamantly refused by Jews who see the Trinity as a conflict with monotheistic god.

There is no support in the Old Testament for the concept of God manifesting in human form, and since other religions in the Roman Empire, like Mithraism and the Isis sect from Egypt had demi-gods coming down to earth for the purpose of serving as ransom sacrifices for sin, the concept of God the Son is regarded as something from the surrounding religions of the Roman Empire. http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html

back to Judaism Online

The Messiah is supposed to build a third temple in Jerusalem Ezekiel 37:26-28

Gather all of the Jews back to the Land of Israel Isaiah 43:5-6

End war, hatred, oppression, disease and suffering, upon his arrival

And convert all of the nations after his arrival.

Christians mistranslate and misapply prophecies to prove Jesus is the Messiah (even in the New Testament books):

According to Jewish tradition, the time of prophecy ended during the 3rd Century B.C., since the majority of Jews were no longer living in Israel after that time, but were scattered in the gentile nations. Jesus arrived at a time when the majority of Jews were not in Judea, and since he did not gather the Jews to Israel, he could not be a prophet by this interpretation...and if he was not a prophet, he could not be the messiah.

The Messiah must be a descendent of King David Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, but if he is born of a virgin, he has no earthly father, and the conflicting geneologies of Matthew and Luke, which claim Joseph is from the line of David, are no help, since Joseph would be an adoptive father who's son did not share his bloodline.

The Messiah is supposed to lead Israel in full Torah observance, so New Testament verses that repudiate some of the commandments and show Jesus violating rules of the Sabbath didn't go over to well with Orthodox Jews John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14.

MISTRANSLATIONS

The "born of a virgin" verse from the King James bible is disputed by Jewish scholars because the Hebrew word used in the verse in Isaiah 7:14 is "almah" which apparently means a young woman, who is not necessarily a virgin. The word for virgin is "bethulah." Also, according to Isaiah 7:14, the messiah is supposed to be called Emmanuel, not Jesus, which surprisingly, is not found in any NT verses.

Jews also take issue with the Christian claim that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus as the "suffering servant;" and insist that Isaiah 53 refers to the exile and redemption of the Jewish people after returning from Babylon. http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus#5

From a brief overview, it is easy to see why Judaism and Christianity are not compatible enough to be considered a common religion, as some preachers try to do today by using the term "JudeoChristian" over and over again. One thing is for certain; you can be a Jew, or you can be a Christian, but you can't be something in the middle, like what's now called a "Messianic Jew" unless you know next to nothing about either religion, and that's likely why so many Jews were offended when aging partygirl Ann Coulter declared that she wanted Jews to be "perfected."

[WIP]

If by trying to adhere to the exact teachings of Christ (sans distortions and manipulations by mere men usually just so to suit it to their needs or by popular demands - moral relativism), I guess I'm a fundamentalist! I'm okay with being described as that. I struggle to try to adhere...but then, don't we have to in order to achieve whatever is it we crave for?

Weight-loss? No pain, no gain?

Who said it's going to be easy? Christ Himself warned us it's going to be tough.

Well, even the sin of weight-gain is more difficult for some people to rise above, than others.

Maybe some people on the borderline can be kept on the straight and narrow by being frightened with hellfire preaching, but the problem is that physical factors are in play in determining how vulnerable a person is to problems of addiction -- or what you would call sin. Maybe part of the reason why this theology leaves me cold is because I don't feel the pull of self-destructive addictive behaviour that many born again people have given me in their personal testimonials!

If I wanted to be a sinner, there is no reason I could not use drugs, get loaded up on liquor, have an affair (or buy some hookers if that takes too much effort).....I don't feel anything pulling me into "sin" and I am monogamous likely because I am not ambitious enough to be a philanderer, and I like a nice, quiet, comfortable homelife.....and from what I've seen of others, screwing around doesn't fit in to a stable, long-lasting marriage.

On the other hand, I've done volunteer work with people who have often taken right till middle age, before they have finally been able to manage their addictions. There are fundamental differences in neurochemistry that can lead someone to start drinking non-stop after they've had their first drink at 16, whereas others may go through a stage in their teens or early 20's where they are hitting the bars and nightclubs, and then leave it all behind and not even miss it after the new challenges of raising children and family life take the place of the old single life.

So, I have to wonder how healthy it is for repentent sinners to keep backsliding over and over again, and keep beating themselves up each time about what worthless sinners they are for continually falling into sin. Addicts have a hard time getting through their struggles anyway, but I suspect that theology which destroys whatever remains of these people's self esteem, doesn't do them any good.

I sure won't be able to answer a lot of questions atheists will want to ask. I'm not trying to convert you to join in any religion. I'm inviting you to learn about Christ.

A lot of people are, it seems; but they all have something different to say about him. That's not surprising in light of the fact that the early Christian communities already had sharp divisions between: Torah-observant Jewish Christians (the Ebionites) who believed Jesus was a man and not part of a godhead, Christians who rejected the Old Testament and Yahweh (the Marcionites) who believed that Jesus was not a man but only took on the appearance of a man, Gnostic Christians who believed the god of this world was really Satan, and the message of salvation was to be given special knowledge so your soul could escape this world and go to heaven (they also believed that Jesus was not a god, not a man)....and somehow a hybrid Christianity, that arrived at the compromise position that Jesus is both God and man at the same time, ended up becoming the dominant belief and when the Roman Emperor Constantine decided that the Christian religion could provide a unifying force to keep the empire going, then Christianity was on its way to become the religion of Europe and Asia Minor.

As far as I'm concern, people who don't believe do not scare me at all. Scared is not the right word to describe me.

It is those who claim to believe...those who have the power to lead and sway....and use the name of Christ to mis-lead. Those are the real threats to the Christian faith, imho.

If Christianity is the one true religion representing the creator of the whole universe, and there is one true Christianity, then why is it the domain of people to be fighting doctrinal disputes down here on Earth? Why don't the clouds part, and a big, booming voice declares which side has the right doctrinal interpretation? If this is about representing the one true God, why doesn't he set the record straight himself, rather than leave the present state of confusion, which the last time I checked on the ReligiousTolerance website, there are about 33,000 different Christian sects in the world.

The only other explanation is that, like other world religions, Christianity is also a man-made creation that has no more supernatural assistance than the others are given. Ofcourse there is a third alternative: the creator of the universe doesn't care about our doctrinal religious disputes here on earth.

If trying to adhere to the teachings of Christ (sand the distortions and manipulations of mere men just so to suit their needs or bow down to popular demands) is now described as fanaticism...then I'm a fanatic. I have no problem being called that.

As to the word limited "acceptance" of people with other religions...I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

Well, I think I you've given me enough information to answer it for you now. Your acceptance of people with different religions or religious beliefs is going to be much more limited than mine, since you are describing these people in a hostile frame of reference, as "distorting and manipulating" your faith. If you really believe that, and somebody moves in next door who belongs to that apostate church (whatever it is), you do not have the luxury of becoming friends with them because of this, as someone who either doesn't believe or doesn't believe that there has to be uniformity of doctrine, would not really care that much what church they belong to or what they believe as long as they conduct themselves as good neighbours.

It is a war-fare, religiously, morally and spiritually! Good vs Evil.

In our everyday lives....in our midst. Just for starter, why do you think we have our criminal laws?

Our laws should be there to maintain social order. If that becomes part of the debate, I think the divine command rule-based laws of old are out of date, and need to be replaced by a new legal philosophy that checks in periodically to see if the laws and applications of laws are leading to the best consequences. For example, prohibition laws, whether for liquor or marijuana, start to do more harm than good when a significant portion of the population uses these substances, and becomes criminals for doing so.

I am a Catholic, actually....although not a practicing one. I just call myself a Christian now.

There's a lot of distrotions out there on the words of Christ....and on several passages, he'd warned us about false prophets, lamabsted the clergy for hypocrisy etc..,

I have to go...I'm running out of time, unfortunately.

Well, I did not see that one coming! I was guessing that you were in some sort of hardline Baptist or Calvinist Reformed church. If you are not a practicing Catholic, is this a personal statement, or are you part of some breakaway Catholic group, like the one Mel Gibson's father started?

[WIP]

I am not just using that claim to victimhood...I'm just stating the obvious. A lot of atheists used to be christians at one time. And they do have something against the faith (varied reasons)otherwise they wouldn't have left the fold at all. For others, the Christian Faith is too "severe"....they find it too "rigid"...too "constricting"....too "forbidding".

It wouldn't let them do whatever they wish.

No, those people just stop attending church! If it's a matter of church rules, the majority of Catholics use contraceptive methods of birth control forbidden by the Church, many Catholic women have had abortions, Catholics are just as likely to be out hitting the bars as anyone else on a Saturday night, so saying that a person becomes an atheist because they don't want to follow God's laws, is just plain stupid! If the person believes that a real God is making those laws, they are not atheists! If they become atheists, they believe those laws have no power anyway because the God who made them doesn't exist. So the argument that a person becomes an atheist to enjoy sinning is illogical.

And if we compare the available stats on sin issues like divorce, gambling, drug abuse, etc., we find the people in the Bible Belt with the highest divorce rates, highest violent crime rates and highest teen pregnancy rates, so it would seem that being a fundamentalist Christian is no impediment to being a sinner!

[betsy]

No, those people just stop attending church!

With their own reasons. Just like you have your own reason.

but my story is mine alone, other atheists or agnostics have their own stories to tell and everyone has a different one.

You have something against religion, because of what happened between you and your family.

And perhaps it's not the only reason since you tried other types of religion.

Some atheists are angry...I was when I was forced to leave home for rejecting my family's new-found religion- Jehovah's Witnesses -- and after a few short years, they all left the J.W.'s also...even my father, who converted first and pushed us into it, eventually left also. I tried other types of religion over the years, but kept going back to a default position of atheism that I first arrived at when I was about 25.

You may not be angry anymore but I sense the hurt has not fully healed. I'm sorry to hear about what happened...thank you for sharing it with me.

From what you describe about your values, you seem to walk the narrow path much better than a lot of christians. Could it be some remnants of values you've learned as a child? I am assuming your family belonged to another christian group before converting to Jehovah's.

I am not forcing my belief on you. Though I have been a christian from birth.....it is at this stage in life that I am seeking to learn about Christ and His teachings. Finding it hard to trust organized religion (for fear of being misled), I've decided to learn about Christ from the Bible.

I try to tune in on Charles Price on tv every Sunday for he has the knack of making me understand passages easier....and as I chew and contemplate on his explanations (which are so down-to-earth, to me they make a lot of sense).

I fnd solace, comfort and inner peace even in difficult times....especially in difficult and painful times.

Now that I am 52, and have been an atheist for at least the last ten years, I am probably not that likely to change directions again....

WIP, as you said in one of your replies, you took religion quite seriously. Somehow you've been let down by the different types of religion you tried in your quest to find God. As I said before, from the way you describe your values, it looks like you are more of a follower of Christ than a lot of christians.

Just read the Bible on your own. Who knows, you may be closer to finding Christ...all you need to do is to humbly call and accept Him.

[Oleg Bach]

Betsy...If you want to be possesed and preseved by God..You have to give him permission to come in..,much like a vampire. The only difference is that God sustains life. God loves so much..and respects so much he gave us free will....It's like having a child. You do not dominate..You set the child free, because love and respect are power...You empower the child...but the child has to want power. Not everyone wants power and not everyone wants to be saved from oblivion.

[BubberMiley]

A child who's raised to understand and follow the teachings of Christ is almost surely to follow the laws of society. As I said before, it comes naturally.

He'll have more resolve to resist temptations of peers that could lead him to trouble: drugs, unwanted pregnancies, gangs.

Do you have a citation for this data?

[WIP]

With their own reasons. Just like you have your own reason.

You have something against religion, because of what happened between you and your family.

And perhaps it's not the only reason since you tried other types of religion.

You may not be angry anymore but I sense the hurt has not fully healed. I'm sorry to hear about what happened...thank you for sharing it with me.

It's all part of living and learning, and not much different than what other people have to deal with in their lives. I consider it all an important learning experience.

I read some years back that Jehovah's Witnesses is one of the most successful religions at evangelizing and making new converts; but more than one third of the new converts become disenchanted and leave within five years. They funny thing is that a substantially large portion of ex-J.W.'s become atheists. I have noticed that a lot of active atheists online are also ex-Witnesses, and part of the reason is likely due to the dry, analytical approach to religion and finding truth, which provides good training for becoming full-fledged naturalists.

From what you describe about your values, you seem to walk the narrow path much better than a lot of christians. Could it be some remnants of values you've learned as a child? I am assuming your family belonged to another christian group before converting to Jehovah's.

Yes, and I would agree that you can shape and mold adult beliefs by childhood indoctrination, but actual behaviour....I don't think so. I take no credit for leading a life of relative moderation (compared to a lot of people); I'm happy with what I have. But a lot of people are drawn to all sorts of destructive behaviours and if the hell-fire sermons they heard as a child are all that's keeping them straight, they become filled with inner resentment, lashing out at everyone they see enjoying things that are taboo for them.

I am not forcing my belief on you. Though I have been a christian from birth.....it is at this stage in life that I am seeking to learn about Christ and His teachings. Finding it hard to trust organized religion (for fear of being misled), I've decided to learn about Christ from the Bible.

I try to tune in on Charles Price on tv every Sunday for he has the knack of making me understand passages easier....and as I chew and contemplate on his explanations (which are so down-to-earth, to me they make a lot of sense).

I fnd solace, comfort and inner peace even in difficult times....especially in difficult and painful times.

People have different temperaments, interests and life experiences, so I don't think everyone can find inspiration from the same source; but if Charles Price does it for you, that's great!

WIP, as you said in one of your replies, you took religion quite seriously. Somehow you've been let down by the different types of religion you tried in your quest to find God. As I said before, from the way you describe your values, it looks like you are more of a follower of Christ than a lot of christians.

Just read the Bible on your own. Who knows, you may be closer to finding Christ...all you need to do is to humbly call and accept Him.

I am always interested in this subject, but there are some major obstacles in front of me coming back again as a convert to some Christian sect or other. One, would be the Problem Of Evil -- both the problem that theologians have tried to resolve for centuries: how a all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, omnipresent creator allows evil and suffering to continue to exist in the world.

And the problem that usually gets ignored -- Natural Evil: why nature depends on suffering -- predation, starvation and disease, to thin the numbers and keep some sort of balance in nature. Predation is not a loving method of creating a world of living creatures, but it is a natural one, and some people who are really into computer programming tell me that digital biota life simulation programs quickly diverge into prey/predator species without any prior instructions inserted into the program. It's just a natural course of events when living creatures are struggling for survival in a finite environment. So these conditions are more easy to accept if no one is in charge, rather than someone who is, but chooses to do nothing about it.

The other problem that keeps holding me back on belief-based redemption is that whichever religion is the right one, there are so many that there will be multitudes of people who cannot be redeemed, because they will be like the majority of people who tend to hold on to the religious beliefs they were taught as children. If salvation is about having the right beliefs and making the right choice, the vast majority of the human race is lost, no matter which one is right....and that is the first objection I have to every kind of religion that says you have to follow our path to salvation.....whichever one is right, billions of people die, and in some creeds, that's not enough either, they have to dwell forever in hell.

[jbg]

Do you have a citation for this data?

It is true that if the conditions you quoted are fulfilled the person is unlikely to engage in antisocial conduct. But many poeple are hypocrits.

[betsy]

Some Christians drift away without even realizing it. We simply stop....distracted by things around us. I am guilty of that. As a youth and young adult, like most my own age I went through the usual rebellion against religion and my parents' values. I had the usual questions of challenge against faith, trying to prove my parents wrong!

But a certain time in life I also realized I sound more and more like my parents. Values I rebelled against were and are mirrored and reflected in most of my life's decisions and actions.

I guess it depends on how parents instill God and religion and the accompanying values that comes with it in a child. We've heard of the importance of the formative years in a child. The values that we learn from parents/guardians are the foundation.

And now I am embracing the faith. I am comforted and content....but I do pray that I will always remain strong in the face of temptation and other distractions.

Edited April 1, 2009 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

It is true that if the conditions you quoted are fulfilled the person is unlikely to engage in antisocial conduct. But many poeple are hypocrits.

Perhaps it depends on what you consider anti-social conduct. I consider denying one group of society fewer rights than others to be anti-social behaviour, and most major religions would gladly deny homosexuals fewer rights than others. I consider one individual trying to take control over another individual's anatomical sovereignty to be anti-social behaviour, and most major religions would gladly deny women the right to decide what to do with her own body.

On the other hand, I don't see how in any way one could say that those who have grown up without any exposure to religious thought are less moral and behave less ethically. Show me the data or STFU, because I think the truth is the opposite.

[WIP]

Some Christians drift away without even realizing it. We simply stop....distracted by things around us. I am guilty of that. As a youth and young adult, like most my own age I went through the usual rebellion against religion and my parents' values. I had the usual questions of challenge against faith, trying to prove my parents wrong!

I hear this often, and it still leaves me scratching my head....it's like religion is castor oil or something, it's so bad it must be good for you!

But a certain time in life I also realized I sound more and more like my parents. Values I rebelled against were and are mirrored and reflected in most of my life's decisions and actions.

I would say that most children end up unconsciously following the patterns established by their mothers and fathers. Part of this is undoubtably genetic, but when it comes to beliefs and customs, using the parenting style that you experienced as a child, seems to be the default position.

This is fine, if you are from a stable, happy home and have good lessons to teach the next generation; but what about all of the children from dysfunctional families! Unfortunately, most of them also follow the bad things they learned: abused children grow up to be abusers, children of alcoholics grow up to be drunks, boys who raged about being abandoned by their philandering fathers, grow up to follow the same pattern -- unfortunately I have seen this happen with a nephew from my wife's side of the family, whom we had custody of during his teen years -- he often told me how much he hated his father, and refused to speak to him, and as much as I warned him that it would be hard to break the mold, he has started his adult life abandoning one pregnant girlfriend already. Final word is it's hard to break the mold, and it takes a lot of effort to avoid repeating mistakes of past generations; but the first step is recognizing that your mom or dad were not right about everything, but rather than just feeling animosity towards them, you have to work really hard to chart a different course.

[betsy]

On the other hand, I don't see how in any way one could say that those who have grown up without any exposure to religious thought are less moral and behave less ethically.

Please don't put words in my mouth. That is not what I said. Kindly re-read my statement.

A child who's raised to understand and follow the teachings of Christ is almost surely to follow the laws of society. As I said before, it comes naturally.

He'll have more resolve to resist temptations of peers that could lead him to trouble: drugs, unwanted pregnancies, gangs.

Edited April 1, 2009 by betsy

[BubberMiley]

Please don't put words in my mouth. That is not what I said. Kindly re-read my statement.

"More resolve" than what? More resolve than a person who does have this religious training, or more resolve than they otherwise would have if they hadn't had religious training? Either way, you are saying the religious person is more ethical without providing any evidence to back it up.

Edited April 1, 2009 by BubberMiley

[betsy]

"More resolve" than what? More resolve than a person who does have this religious training, or more resolve than they otherwise would have if they hadn't had religious training? Either way, you are saying the religious person is more ethical without providing any evidence to back it up.

The source of our western moral standard is Christianity. There is no other standard.

Atheist, moral relativists, nihilists, etc., don't have a moral standard.

Their rules are self-declared. What THEY want is the "standard" , which of course is not a standard at all.

Therefore whether a child is religious or not, if he's taught Christian morals, he understands Christian values. And if he understands western values, he'll fit into our society.

If they understand the difference between right and wrong; good and evil, they understand by way of a moral code that is similar to Christianity. You don't have to be a Christian to be good.

But Christianity requires much more than just being good.

[BubberMiley]

But Christianity requires much more than just being good.

According to those who've been burned at the stake, it doesn't require "being good" at all. What it seems to require most is a willingness to forgo rational thought and to surrender personal autonomy to people who have declared themselves to have godly authority.

[betsy]

According to those who've been burned at the stake, it doesn't require "being good" at all. What it seems to require most is a willingness to forgo rational thought and to surrender personal autonomy to people who have declared themselves to have godly authority.

Whatever.

After all this time that I've been talking about TRUE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

[BubberMiley]

Whatever.

After all this time that I've been talking about TRUE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

And I've been talking about RELIGION (Check thread title).

[jbg]

The source of our western moral standard is Christianity. There is no other standard.

Jews definitely have a moral standard. I know you are a friend of the Jews but I can't let that slide.