And the Wall Came Down

[M.Dancer]

Why are they firing rocket propelled grenades (rpg) and not other types of conventional weapons?

They are firing what ever they can get their hands on including mortars and rockets. If they had howitzers they would use these too. No amount of intellectual rationalization will justify their random and indescriminate attacks against civilan targets launched amongst and behind civilian screens.

So to answer your question, they are not firing other more powerful weapons because they can't get them. Which is good. The probelms of Gaza are self induced. Once they figure out that waging war is unprofitable and futile, it will end.

[lost&outofcontrol]

snip

So to answer your question, they are not firing other more powerful weapons because they can't get them. snip

You've completely ignored the essence of my post. What makes them unable to acquire such weapons?

[M.Dancer]

What makes them unable to acquire such weapons?

Duh!

The Israelis....

[lost&outofcontrol]

1. They have no conventional weapons
   
2. In desperation they resort to suicide bombing like countless other people placed in a similar situation
   
3. They are so pissed that they lob rocket propelled grenades towards their neighbor
   
4. The only super power in the world is funding a murderous campaign to incite a civil war
   
5. They cannot move about freely within their borders
   
6. The threat of imminent destruction (holocaust -the 'you brought it on yourselves' angle)
   

What is common to all these statements? Are they a Bunch of nut jobs who just want to kill some Jews? Do they lack strong ethical principles (they are not Christians after all)? Or is the cause of violence more profound than just simplistic media and government created situations--compartmentalized for mass consumption.

As has been repeatedly pointed out by more erudite individuals than I, the Israelis have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves against attack.

It is not their fault the "government" of the Palestinian people insist on firing rockets across the border aimed at Israeli civilians - a war crime, btw.

[snip]

We are way past the cause and effect excuse. Why do they "insist on firing rockets across the border" Argus? Do the Palestinian people not "have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves against attack" as well?

I'm not laying blame solely on one side. The situation is much more complex than what people have portrayed it to be.

Edited March 5, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[M.Dancer]

[*]They have no conventional weapons

You obviously don't know what is or isn't a coventional weapon.

In desperation they resort to suicide bombing like countless other people placed in a similar situation

And thousands and thousands and even more thousands more don't. The fact that they are unable to live in peace is not an excuse.

Do the Palestinian people not "have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves against attack" as well?

Absolutely. And when someone attacks them without provocation or in reponse to a suicide bomber or a rocket attack on a civilian or daycare target, please let us know.

[lost&outofcontrol]

And thousands and thousands and even more thousands more don't. The fact that they are unable to live in peace is not an excuse.

The RPG attacks are because they are unable to live peaceably? That simple huh...

[eyeball]

Do the Palestinian people not "have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves against attack" as well?

Absolutely. And when someone attacks them without provocation or in reponse to a suicide bomber or a rocket attack on a civilian or daycare target, please let us know.

Who actually threw the very first punch in the region? I think this is a relevant question if Morris' line of thought is followed and as each provocation and response is addressed in turn.

Truth and Reconciliation anyone?

Edited March 5, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

The RPG attacks are because they are unable to live peaceably? That simple huh...

Pretty much. Escept they are not RPG attacks, they are Qassam unguided missiles.

Once they stop lobbing them at daycares, schools and towns the Israelis won't be forced to try and blow up the rocketeers.....

...and that's the big fundamental difference. Israel isn't launching unprovoked attacks against civilians, they are retaliating against terror attacks by terrorists who use civilians as cover...so when civilans are killed or injured, someone in the west will cry for them.

Once they stop launching terror attacks the Israelis will stop fighting back. Once they recognise Israel and behave like a raitional nation, then they can get on with their lives.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told reporters today that his country's military won't attack the Gaza Strip if Palestinians stop firing missiles across the border.

"One thing should be clear: If there is no Qassam (rocket) fire on Israel, there will be no Israeli attack on Gaza," Olmert says, according to Reuters. "We do not rise in the morning and think about how to attack Gaza."

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2008/...el-says-it.html

Edited March 5, 2008 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

Who actually threw the very first punch in the region?

And you think that would solve anything? What do you think will happen?

Okay, we shouldn't be here....everyone back into the ovens.....

No that's not likely....how far back do you want to go? Or do you have a predermined outcome for your little rhetorical exercize?

Blame the Jews?

Blame the British?

Blame the Turks?

Blame the Crusaders?

Blame the Romans?

blame anyone except the murderous cowards who intentional strike at civilans?

[lost&outofcontrol]

And you think that would solve anything? What do you think will happen?

No that's not likely....how far back do you want to go? Or do you have a predermined outcome for your little rhetorical exercize?

I agree, we are well past this point

Blame the Jews?

Blame the British?

Blame the Turks?

Blame the Crusaders?

Blame the Romans?

blame anyone except the murderous cowards who intentional strike at civilans?

Israel never strikes the general population? Trying to find a single party to blame is no better than determining who shot first. Is it possible that the cause of missile attacks stems from the fact that foreign powers have occupied (direct or by proxy) Palestine in one way or another for the past century?

Do you think Canadians would "have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves if foreign countries were to decide Canada's fate? Do you think Canadians would act if a foreign power was funding a murderous civil war within Canada?

Your acknowledgment that Israel's reaction is justified by the rocket attacks shows that you accept the one sided situation as presented by the medias in general. You accept the cause and effect as merely a time based development and never question the cause of Israel's reaction. Only by answering why they are they firing the rockets in the first place can this discussion advance.

Edited March 5, 2008 by lost&outofcontrol

[M.Dancer]

Israel never strikes the general population?

Israel never intentionally targets the general population. If the terrorists use the general population as a shield, then that by international law absolves Israel and makes the terrorist in violation of the Geneva convention.

[M.Dancer]

Is it possible that the cause of missile attacks stems from the fact that foreign powers have occupied (direct or by proxy) Palestine in one way or another for the past century?

How many terrorist attacks were there on Egypt when they occupied the Gaza from 1948 to 1967?

[M.Dancer]

Do you think Canadians would "have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves if foreign countries were to decide Canada's fate? Do you think Canadians would act if a foreign power was funding a murderous civil war within Canada?

Do you realize just how irrelevant that comparison is?

[M.Dancer]

Only by answering why they are they firing the rockets in the first place can this discussion advance.

Because they are murderous cowards who should be put down.

EOS

[Argus]

[*]They have no conventional weapons

RPGs and machine guns ARE conventional weapons.

[*]In desperation they resort to suicide bombing like countless other people placed in a similar situation

I think that prior to them suicide attacks were made on people and institutions of power, not on market places and pizza shops full of teenagers.

[*]They are so pissed that they lob rocket propelled grenades towards their neighbor

So being pissed is an excuse to commit murder? Very well, the Israelis are pissed too.

[*]The only super power in the world is funding a murderous campaign to incite a civil war

And lots of crazy arabs are funding them. BTW, the US is also funding the Palestinian government.

[*]They cannot move about freely within their borders

Nor can most of the people on this planet. So? At least the restrictions placed on them are there to deter violence, not keep them from leaving.

What is common to all these statements? Are they a Bunch of nut jobs who just want to kill some Jews?

Basically - yes.

Do they lack strong ethical principles (they are not Christians after all)?

Yes.

We are way past the cause and effect excuse. Why do they "insist on firing rockets across the border" Argus? Do the Palestinian people not "have the absolute moral and legal right to defend themselves against attack" as well?

They fire them because they are wackos, because they are religious fanatics, because they don't care about their own people. And they are not defending themselves by firing at civilian targets.

A real government would stop such behaviour on the grounds that it is counter-productive, and gets so many civilians killed in the crossfire and retaliation. But Hamas just figures every dead Palestinian child is good publicity for the cause.

[eyeball]

Israel never intentionally targets the general population. If the terrorists use the general population as a shield, then that by international law absolves Israel and makes the terrorist in violation of the Geneva convention.

Nonetheless Isreal still shoots its missles into civilian areas. Back and forth it goes...oh well, its just another hopeless quagmire. Thankfully its on the other side of the planet. Better them than us.

[Argus]

Is it possible that the cause of missile attacks stems from the fact that foreign powers have occupied (direct or by proxy) Palestine for the past century five thousand years?

Given the Palestine region has always been just a province or territory of some other nation or power I felt you would appreciate my correcting your statement above.

[M.Dancer]

Nonetheless Isreal still shoots its missles into civilian areas.

Israel does so legally. They aren't given a choice as that is where the attacks originate and or the attackers tend to be.

[HisSelf]

How many terrorist attacks were there on Egypt when they occupied the Gaza from 1948 to 1967?

That's an interesting question. It is a well-documented fact that Israel (under Ben Gurion) sent terrorists into Egypt in an effort to destabilize the Nasser government and that those terrorist were caught, tried and convicted to the great embarrassment of the Israelis.

Edited March 5, 2008 by HisSelf

[M.Dancer]

That's an interesting question. It is a well-documented fact that Israel (under Ben Gurion) sent terrorists into Egypt in an effort to destabilize the Nasser government and that those terrorist were caught, tried and convicted.

Please provide the documents.

[eyeball]

Israel does so legally. They aren't given a choice as that is where the attacks originate and or the attackers tend to be.

It should be just as illegal for one side to shoot missles into civilian areas as it is for the other.

There needs to be a better balance of power, perhaps if the Palestinians were allowed to have the same sorts of weapons the Israeli army does they could make better choices and take their fight out into the desert. As it is they are cornered and this limits their choices and makes them more dangerous.

[HisSelf]

Please provide the documents.

Apparently we have an undergrad here.

[eyeball]

Morris won't have anything to do with any sort of source unless they support his side. He subscribes to the la la la la fingers in ears approach.

[M.Dancer]

It should be just as illegal for one side to shoot missles into civilian areas as it is for the other.

No it shouldn't mainly because if it were, the less moral side would continue to launch attacks from the safety of civilian shielding with impunity...know full well the outrage would be there when the other side illegallt retailiates.

As it stands the only legal reason to strike into a civilian area is to hit a military target that is threatening you.

[M.Dancer]

Apparently we have an undergrad here.

You said it was well documented....well, provide the documents.